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On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:02:45 +0200, Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapg inrafr>
wrote:
>Being back from vacation for a few hours, some comments on uv-mapping.
>First I'm very happy that it's finally getting the interest of many
>people. There are many little problems in all the converters I found so
>it's handy to have several of them. Recently I had to remove all the
>degenerate triangles from a Poser mesh because the Superpatch refused it
>(mesh2 accepted it though) ! It's not a completely straightforward
>technique but it's worth it. So many thanks and best of luck for your
>converter.
Gilles - where were you while I was finidng out about degenerate
triangles?
Jeesh, some people. Give them a minute and they take a vacation!
The entire impetus behind OBJuvPOV is those little "annoyances" using
other techinques - either existing converters or convoluted
work-arounds. Since I'm more interested in animations than still
images, I *need* to do little or no work to an OBJ in order to reuse
it in POV. So I'm spending days of time writing the converter to save
myself a few minutes... no, seriously, even though it's slow it should
make life much easier for me. I'll hopefully have a test version for
Ken this weekend and if all goes well then the first public beta will
follow shortly. If there's something which would drastically improve a
user's experience of the program then I'm up for potentially including
it - as (as far as I'm concerned) I'm going to be it's #1 user.
There's even been an offer of some assistance in getting my head
around Java - if Java offers significant speed inducements then I'm
all for that (and quite liked what I've seen of the Java language -
just not the compatability issues. But then they're NOTHING as
compared to the VB compatability issues - which only works on
windoze). Maybe I'll try and work on moving this thread over to the
programming group?
[snip]
>Of course obj export already works fine in Poser so an obj -> mesh 2
>converter will be great.
>
Using "mesh" for the moment (largely because I had so many problems
with mesh2 initially - mainly my own, alas).
mesh2 to be included after someone other than me has passed some
comments on the program. I want to get the "OBJ to Cliff" conversion
down pat first. Now I'm comfortable with uvPOV's UV implimentation
(the first I ever encountered BTW) I need to maximise my understanding
of Posers/OBJ's.
BTW I hear you've done some interesting hair... pointers on where to
look up what you've done?
Cheers,
Cliff Bowman
Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at http://www.who3d.cwc.net/
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> mesh2 to be included after someone other than me has passed some
> comments on the program. I want to get the "OBJ to Cliff" conversion
> down pat first. Now I'm comfortable with uvPOV's UV implimentation
> (the first I ever encountered BTW) I need to maximise my understanding
> of Posers/OBJ's.
One reason I use mesh2 is the drastic reduction in both file size and parsing
time (+ some little reduction in memory use). I have a long-delayed project
of an animation involving galloping horses. The gallop cycle would use 30 or
so meshes and I'd like to parse at lease 5 horses simultaneously. For this
kind of project, both batch support and mesh2 support would be handy.
> BTW I hear you've done some interesting hair... pointers on where to
> look up what you've done?
I'm going to disappoint you... The hair I "did" was just a hair mesh from
Poser. The only improvement was to use an alpha channel on the hair map to
simulate individual hair strands by making some of the hair transparent. This
is only possible on meshes with uv mapping of course. Actually, now that
Poser figures have become really usable, one of the big limit is the hair.
I've yet to see mesh hair that are as convincing in close-up as the faces
are. I wonder if it could be possible to use some of the uv mapping info to
grow the hair more precisely (some sort of uv-hair map instead of a color
one). A utility could read the mesh and the map and then produce a hair mesh
according to the map and other options (flow, gravity, interaction with other
body parts). Just dreaming.
Gilles
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Gilles Tran wrote:
>
> > mesh2 to be included after someone other than me has passed some
> > comments on the program. I want to get the "OBJ to Cliff" conversion
> > down pat first. Now I'm comfortable with uvPOV's UV implimentation
> > (the first I ever encountered BTW) I need to maximise my understanding
> > of Posers/OBJ's.
>
> One reason I use mesh2 is the drastic reduction in both file size and parsing
> time (+ some little reduction in memory use). I have a long-delayed project
> of an animation involving galloping horses. The gallop cycle would use 30 or
> so meshes and I'd like to parse at lease 5 horses simultaneously. For this
> kind of project, both batch support and mesh2 support would be handy.
>
> > BTW I hear you've done some interesting hair... pointers on where to
> > look up what you've done?
>
> I'm going to disappoint you... The hair I "did" was just a hair mesh from
> Poser. The only improvement was to use an alpha channel on the hair map to
> simulate individual hair strands by making some of the hair transparent. This
> is only possible on meshes with uv mapping of course. Actually, now that
> Poser figures have become really usable, one of the big limit is the hair.
> I've yet to see mesh hair that are as convincing in close-up as the faces
> are. I wonder if it could be possible to use some of the uv mapping info to
> grow the hair more precisely (some sort of uv-hair map instead of a color
> one). A utility could read the mesh and the map and then produce a hair mesh
> according to the map and other options (flow, gravity, interaction with other
> body parts). Just dreaming.
> Gilles
Colefax has a hair growing macro that works with the PCM compressed mesh
file format. It makes great looking hair and offers the features you
just outlined.
--
Ken Tyler
See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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It does great fur, but I don't think it could do human hair that looks realistic
in closeup. There is no interaction and relatively little control over the shape
of the hair...
There are very interesting papers around the net about realistic
computer-generated hair, but I doubt any of them would be applicable in POV
script.
Margus
Ken wrote:
>
> Colefax has a hair growing macro that works with the PCM compressed mesh
> file format. It makes great looking hair and offers the features you
> just outlined.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler
>
> See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
> http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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Margus Ramst wrote:
>
> It does great fur, but I don't think it could do human hair that looks realistic
> in closeup. There is no interaction and relatively little control over the shape
> of the hair...
> There are very interesting papers around the net about realistic
> computer-generated hair, but I doubt any of them would be applicable in POV
> script.
>
> Margus
It will do hiar too if you apply yourself. Posted on 05-04-1999 a thread
titled "H" by Ken Tyler shows that you can do hair with Chris's macro.
I did not see you reply to the thread so you may have missed it. I spent
very little time on the hair on that dude and it could have been imporved
upon greatly had I applied myself to it more. Shape control is more of a
problem than length and curving from the top downward. Someone with Gilles
talents would most likely have no problems with it though.
--
Ken Tyler
See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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One reason I didn't mention it is that though it makes nice grass, fur or
"crew-cut" style of hairdo, it offers no or little control about the way the hair
can flow (apart gravity). Also, there's no way of positionning the hair in a
precise pattern over a mesh, or to have the hair longer in some places etc. This is
not a criticism of Chris' work of course since what the macro does is already
great. It's just that 3d hairdressing requires a little more technology. The best
example of that I've seen recently is the trailer for a video game named Ridge
racer (Playstation), where a anime-style girl has free-flowing hair that follows
the movements of her head. This probably involves particle systems and other higher
technology.
G.
Ken wrote:
> Colefax has a hair growing macro that works with the PCM compressed mesh
> file format. It makes great looking hair and offers the features you
> just outlined.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler
>
> See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
> http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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And fine hair it is indeed.
But there are only a few haircuts you can do like this: the 'pot' (?) you
displayed and whatever you call the army hairdo. A pretty decent hippie haircut
might also be possible... But I doubt you can go far beyound that. And when
animated it will simply look fake. Long hair is a modelling nightmare.
As I said, there are methods to include hair-by-hair collision detection, hair
dynamics etc. But they are beyond what even Chris Colefax can be expected do
with current POV script (a somewhat risky statement, I admit).
Margus
Ken wrote:
>
> It will do hiar too if you apply yourself. Posted on 05-04-1999 a thread
> titled "H" by Ken Tyler shows that you can do hair with Chris's macro.
> I did not see you reply to the thread so you may have missed it. I spent
> very little time on the hair on that dude and it could have been imporved
> upon greatly had I applied myself to it more. Shape control is more of a
> problem than length and curving from the top downward. Someone with Gilles
> talents would most likely have no problems with it though.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler
>
> See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
> http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html
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On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:21:58 +0200, Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapginrafr>
wrote:
>> mesh2 to be included after someone other than me has passed some
>> comments on the program. I want to get the "OBJ to Cliff" conversion
>> down pat first. Now I'm comfortable with uvPOV's UV implimentation
>> (the first I ever encountered BTW) I need to maximise my understanding
>> of Posers/OBJ's.
>
>One reason I use mesh2 is the drastic reduction in both file size and parsing
>time (+ some little reduction in memory use). I have a long-delayed project
>of an animation involving galloping horses. The gallop cycle would use 30 or
>so meshes and I'd like to parse at lease 5 horses simultaneously. For this
>kind of project, both batch support and mesh2 support would be handy.
>
Well Poser .OBJ to Cliff (and thence to mesh) I have about down pat
now I think (although I haven't finished investigating the materials
file) and batch processing too (virtually a necessity for the Lip
synch test). But I'm having trobule with the mesh2 format when I had
another bash at it "yesterday" (6 Sept 1999) - any chance I can take
this to e-mail and bug the hell out of you? <eg> There's something I'm
not understanding about the format, and the annoying thing is - I
don't know what it is I don't know!
I've generated a "simple cube" in mesh2 format that I thought should
place an image fully on each side - but doesn't. Far from it. If all I
need is a tweak or two in my understanding then there are significant
file size savings to be made using mesh2 :)
BTW if you've already got the VB5 runtime installed (Win98, or any
other VB5 program installed) then you're welcome to become one of a
select few brave souls doing pre-beta testing and commentary. There's
a brief list of "hopes" for the program in the minimal documentation,
and if I ever crack mesh2 then I'll make the program available in the
utilities group long before it's "finished" to my satisfaction - as
that day will probably never come (projects aren't finished, just
abandoned). Without the VB5 runtime it should come in at around 108KB
zipped (plus whatever I get written between now and then - it's only
recently leapt to 108K from 87K due to additional code). If you're
wondering how finished it is then - not at all really. But it's
working pretty well with Poser4 .OBJ models for single files or
batches to standard uvPOV meshes - and I haven't heard of any bugs
ropping up lately "in the field" (in this case since it isn't released
yet the field in question is more like a back garden, but you get my
drift I'm sure).
Cheers,
Cliff Bowman
Why not pay my 3D Dr Who site a visit at http://www.who3d.cwc.net/
Post a reply to this message
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Gilles Tran wrote:
>
> One reason I didn't mention it is that though it makes nice grass, fur or
> "crew-cut" style of hairdo, it offers no or little control about the way the hair
> can flow (apart gravity). Also, there's no way of positionning the hair in a
> precise pattern over a mesh, or to have the hair longer in some places etc. This is
> not a criticism of Chris' work of course since what the macro does is already
> great. It's just that 3d hairdressing requires a little more technology. The best
> example of that I've seen recently is the trailer for a video game named Ridge
> racer (Playstation), where a anime-style girl has free-flowing hair that follows
> the movements of her head. This probably involves particle systems and other higher
> technology.
> G.
>
I've tried Colefax macro for creating hairs too. While it's relatively
easy to create short (or "afrotype") hairs, I haven't had success with
long hairs: they look rather like "explosion in macaroni drilling
departement" than realistic hairs.
BTW, another good example of moving hairs could be seen in
http://www.aliaswavefront.com/pages/home/pages/galleries/pages/alias_wavefront/pages/chris_landreth/
Look at first animation.
Only catch here is, that Maya (or Alias) costs around $8000.00. A little
bit too pricey for hobbist.
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This is exactly the kind of 3D hair I was thinking of.
BTW, it is quite satisfying to see that the other pics in the Wavefront galleries are
not so impressive
after all. Some of the effects certainly can't be done in POV, but in most cases it's
in the range of
what a "advanced POV user" could do (if you forget about development/render time of
course...).
Conclusion : POV is a good bargain.
G.
Vahur Krouverk wrote:
> BTW, another good example of moving hairs could be seen in
>
http://www.aliaswavefront.com/pages/home/pages/galleries/pages/alias_wavefront/pages/chris_landreth/
> Look at first animation.
> Only catch here is, that Maya (or Alias) costs around $8000.00. A little
> bit too pricey for hobbist.
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