On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:55:20 -0400, Dennis Clarke
<dcl### [at] interlogcom> wrote:


>Geez ...  I'm certain that Sun will lend you a Sun Ultra 2 for the purpose.  It
wouldn't
>take more than a week to get the build optimized and ready to roll.  Where are you
located
>though?  Australia?

Personally, I'm in Indiana.  But it's an ongoing process, you see... A
loaner wouldn't do the job, because next thing you know someone would
want a Solaris 7 build of 3.5, then whatever version comes after that,
and so on.  It's best if there's someone who has full-time access to
whatever hardware is being supported.  That's the case for all of the
currently supported platforms.

Of course, nothing's stopping you from building your own custom 
UltraSparc version and burning it on a CD-R.

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Dennis Clarke wrote in message <37CED4F5.12ED1267@interlog.com>...
>  In any case, maybe I'll stick to this group.  Although, thus far, I have
yet to get my
>fluid animation looking the way I expected.  What I find most surprising is
that the color
>red and green mix together to form black.  At least that's what I have so
far.


Think of it this way:  Pass a ray of white light through a red filter.  The
light that will come out will be red.  Then pass the resulting ray of light
through a green filter.  Since red light contains no green, all of the light
will be absorbed by the green filter.

Mark

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Ron Parker wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:55:20 -0400, Dennis Clarke
> <dcl### [at] interlogcom> wrote:
> 
> >Geez ...  I'm certain that Sun will lend you a Sun Ultra 2 for the purpose.  It
wouldn't
> >take more than a week to get the build optimized and ready to roll.  Where are you
located
> >though?  Australia?
> 
> Personally, I'm in Indiana.  But it's an ongoing process, you see... A
> loaner wouldn't do the job, because next thing you know someone would
> want a Solaris 7 build of 3.5, then whatever version comes after that,
> and so on.  It's best if there's someone who has full-time access to
> whatever hardware is being supported.  That's the case for all of the
> currently supported platforms.
> 
> Of course, nothing's stopping you from building your own custom
> UltraSparc version and burning it on a CD-R.

I see your point.  I'm going to go way way out on a limb here.  You see, I just happen
to
have a bit of Sun hardware at home.  I'm a Solaris fan and a general unix type
user/programmer and administrator.  In general, I have been using unix off and on for
over
17 years and have found the very highest performance and reliability to be in the unix
world.  Well, that's not entirely true.  I spent some time as a systems administrator
for
an IBM 3090 mainframe farm for Pratt & Whitney.  To say the least, the sheer number
crunching ability of an IBM mainframe is, well, a real eye opener.  In any case, if I
had
access to an IBM S390 today then I'd port POV-Ray to mainframe and see what happens. 
Thats not going to happen any time soon.  In the meantime I have two Sun Sparc 20
servers
here with a Fibre based storage array as well as my workstation which is a Sun Ultra
10. 
I also have an old AST Premmia GX with dual P90's as my ppp connection to the
internet. 
That would explain why my message posts are all from a  Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U;
SunOS
5.5.1 i86pc) X-Mailer client.  That would be because I run Solaris 2.5.1 on the x86
based
AST machine because it is rock solid stable.  All the other Sun machines run Solaris
7.  I
also have a slew of NT and Win9x stuff with some Red-Hat Linux machines thrown in for
good
measure.  If you check my web page at
http://www.interlog.com/~dclarke/povray/povray.html
you will see that I've spent some time building my own binaries for the POV-Ray
program.  

So why not simply ask me to compile the code for you on the Sparc, UltraSparc and x86
platforms and then you can post the binaries as official on the povray web site and be
up
to date.  I can not understand why you ( the Pov-Ray team ) would not simply get a
reasonable consultant to do the compile for you and then post the binaries in the same
way
that Linux is posted.  Up to date.  The absence of a decent UNIX ( other than Linux )
just
screams a simple message.  You can guess the message.

Dennis Clarke

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Attachments:
Download 'smime.p7s.dat' (3 KB)

Mark Wagner wrote:
> 
> 
> Think of it this way:  Pass a ray of white light through a red filter.  The
> light that will come out will be red.  Then pass the resulting ray of light
> through a green filter.  Since red light contains no green, all of the light
> will be absorbed by the green filter.
> 
> Mark

Yep.  I get that quite clearly.  I was thinking of the mixing of light sources as
opposed
to physical pigments.

The real problem that I think I'm having ( yes, there are many :) ) is that the blob
object behaves, well, very strangely.  Perhaps I'm doing something very wrong but I
have a
blob object that just simply has chunks missing.  A smooth edge is expected and
instead I
get a chunk missing with right angles.  There are dark regions where no render takes
place
at all.  I'm currently rendering a six component blob with a T_Chrome_5E texture and
I'm
producing the cpu histogram as well.  At 1280 x 960 resolution and a max_trace_level
of 32
it will take a few minutes but thus far I can see the holes and chunks missing.  I'll
post
a reasonably sized jpg to my web page when done and then perhaps I can get some
comments.

Dennis Clarke

 see   http://www.interlog.com/~dclarke/povray/broken_blob.html

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Dennis Clarke wrote:

> 
> So why not simply ask me to compile the code for you on the Sparc, UltraSparc
> and x86 platforms and then you can post the binaries as official on the povray
> web site and be up to date.  I can not understand why you ( the Pov-Ray team )
> would not simply get a reasonable consultant to do the compile for you and then
> post the binaries in the same way that Linux is posted.  Up to date.  The
> absence of a decent UNIX ( other than Linux ) just screams a simple message.
>You can guess the message.
> 
> Dennis Clarke

 The issue is not so much one of just getting someone to compile the most
recent version and pop it onto the pov home page. Once they decide they
will add support for a new platform they obligate themselves not only to
the end user but also ethically to themselves to continue support for that
platform. Just about anyone with access to a Spacr, UltraSparc can throw
together a working compile of Pov but who is going to continue supporting
that platform ?
  The pov team members that offer platform support cannot afford to go out
and buy a system for each platform they wish to offer. Chris Cason supports
the windows version and probably the dos version as well, Thorsten Frolich
(sorry if I misspelled that) is in charge of maintaining the Mac version,
and Mark Gordon has ownership of supporting the unix version. If you are
offering long term dedicated support for a Sparc compile of the program they
may listen to you but unless there are a lot of people begging for it you
will most likely find it a better option to go ahead and maintain your own
unofficial compile. Then advertise it's existence here on the news groups
with a link to your page where it can be downloaded.
 The Pov team, from what I understand, all have made long term commitments
to the life of this program and support for individual platforms requires
dedicated individuals willing to stay with it for the long term. Your kind
offer to compile a working version from the current source code only indicates
that you can compile it but does not show them that you are willing to
maintain that in the next revision and the next version and into the next
century. A review or the POV Legal documentation might also help clarify the
teams position on these issues.

-- 
Ken Tyler

See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

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Ken wrote:

>  The issue is not so much one of just getting someone to compile the most
> recent version and pop it onto the pov home page. Once they decide they
> will add support for a new platform they obligate themselves not only to
> the end user but also ethically to themselves to continue support for that
> platform. Just about anyone with access to a Sparc, UltraSparc can throw
> together a working compile of Pov but who is going to continue supporting
> that platform ?

What difference does it make?   Really?  Ask that question out loud and then go look
at
the "Official SunOS binaries" on the www.povray.org website.  While you are there,
look at
the text on the page ...  "SunOS version (version 3.02, not yet updated to 3.1)".

Again, ask the question.  What difference does it make if you support the build on
Solaris
at all.  It is NOT supported now.  There has not been an official release of POV-Ray
for
Sun Solaris in how long?  A year?  Two?  The current version for SunOS or UNIX on the
"Official" POV-Ray web site is so out of date that I am surprised that it is there at
all.

>   The pov team members that offer platform support cannot afford to go out
> and buy a system for each platform they wish to offer. 

This is lip-service.  There is no need to buy a HP9000 system to build POV-Ray for
HPUX. 
There is no need to buy a Sun Ultra 2300 for UltraSparc and Solaris 8.  (The
pre-release
for Solaris 8 is out)  Look at the size and number of the POV-Ray user community.  I
would
hazard to guess that most POV-Ray users are serious computer professionals.  How do
you
think that Linux bacame what it is today?  By allowing many people to participate in
the
open source concept and by using the talents of your vast user community.  POV-Ray is
probably more than a toy.  If it is a worthless toy then by all means let it rot on
your
web site.  Let it be a Windows toy or a Mac toy.  But if it has a future.  A future
that
could see a full rewrite that is multi-threaded ( not a PVM hack ) and network based
using
Java or what-ever the future holds.  Then you must see that there is a vibrant future
for
this fledgling render engine to become a corporate marketing tool that runs on large
scale
enterprise class systems.  Perhaps you will sit in a movie theatre three years from
now
and watch a new movie by Disney and PIXAR that ran POV-Ray on a massively parallel
render-farm.  Perhaps.  Or maybe it is a toy that produces 320x240 animations on a
single
Windows workstation.

> Chris Cason supports
> the windows version and probably the dos version as well, Thorsten Frolich
> (sorry if I misspelled that) is in charge of maintaining the Mac version,
> and Mark Gordon has ownership of supporting the unix version. 

I can not speak for Mark Gordon but I will bet $100.00 that he would want to see an up
to
date build on the web site that has the same level of support that the current UNIX
offering has.  None.  But at least the user would not have to compile it themselves.

> If you are
> offering long term dedicated support for a Sparc compile of the program they
> may listen to you but unless there are a lot of people begging for it you
> will most likely find it a better option to go ahead and maintain your own
> unofficial compile. Then advertise it's existence here on the news groups
> with a link to your page where it can be downloaded.

If anyone wants my build, they can send an email and ask for it.  No problem. 

     but ....  forget long term support  ....  

  Long term support is a myth.  It is a lie that marketing people say to customers
just
before they drop the technology.  Welcome to modern business.  The DEC Alpha is a dead
architecture with a rapidly shrinking market.  Compaq has announced that they will
stop NT
development. OS/2 was a beautiful 32 bit adventure on the part of IBM.  Gone.  People
simply leave and technology changes.  Long term support is a myth.  Never use the
concept
of long term support in a technology world where two years is a life time.  Linux is
here
and it is growing rapidly.  Sun stock has gone through the roof in the past year. 
Companies are buying bigger and bigger back-end servers for the smaller thinner
client. 
Its a rapidly changing world where billions of dollars are spent making networks of
computers 'talk' to each other for a user community that is baffled by the printer
tray. 
C'est la vie.  But there is no long term support.  Build what you need now, build it
again
in the future if there is a valid reason.  Its time for a more up to date version for
a
few UNIX platforms.

>  The Pov team, from what I understand, all have made long term commitments
> to the life of this program and support for individual platforms requires
> dedicated individuals willing to stay with it for the long term. Your kind
> offer to compile a working version from the current source code only indicates
> that you can compile it but does not show them that you are willing to
> maintain that in the next revision and the next version and into the next
> century. 

I may be dead next week.  I may step out in front of a truck.  Any organization of
people
that depends on a few individuals to maintain a product, is doomed.


Dennis Clarke
dcl### [at] interlogcom

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Attachments:
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Let me just say that while I do not agree with everything you say I will
not debate the issue with you becuase I am not a team member and and I am
in no position to speak for them. I'm sure others would be willing to debate
some of the finer points of your arguments but I feel I have no grounds to
stand on to do so. I was not stating opinions in my previous message I was
instead giving you my insights as to what I have heard in the past as to
how this organization operates. All groups and organizations have rules
of operation and like it or not that is how things work. Who am I to tell
the Pov team, whose work I worship, that they should operate any differently
than they do now ?

-- 
Ken Tyler

See my 850+ Povray and 3D Rendering and Raytracing Links at:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

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Ken wrote:
> 
> I'm sure others would be willing to debate
> some of the finer points of your arguments but I feel I have no grounds to
> stand on to do so.

There were no fine points.  They were blunt resounding thuds.
And I rarely debate.  I usually just say "That's my profound opinion, in my own
opinion."
And then smile.

> I was not stating opinions in my previous message I was
> instead giving you my insights as to what I have heard in the past as to
> how this organization operates. 

Well, I've had the opportunity to discuss some of these issues with at least one of
the
team members.

> All groups and organizations have rules
> of operation and like it or not that is how things work. 

I rarely follow all rules, legal, government, military or otherwise.  I would like to
break a few of the rules of physics but thus far have failed.  :)

> Who am I to tell
> the Pov team, whose work I worship, that they should operate any differently
> than they do now ?

The most powerful voice of all.  The end-user.  If properly motivated, the demanding
end-user.

Dennis Clarke
dcl### [at] interlogcom

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Attachments:
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Dennis Clarke <dcl### [at] interlogcom> wrote:
: There has not been an official release of POV-Ray for
: Sun Solaris in how long?  A year?  Two?  The current version for SunOS or UNIX on
the
: "Official" POV-Ray web site is so out of date that I am surprised that it is there
at all.

  Who cares anyways? I have the latest povray (ie. 3.1g) compiled for the
sparcstation (works fine in the Ultra-5 computers I have access to; besides
this sparcstation 4 I'm using right now, that is).
  Yes, I compiled it myself. No big deal. It was easy.

  Btw: Consider stopping posting multipart mime-coded articles to non-binaries
groups. Thanks.

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 03:26:13 -0400, Dennis Clarke wrote:
>This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.
>
>--------------msFE68DA7EBF8D41907B9C7935
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Ken wrote:
>
>>  The issue is not so much one of just getting someone to compile the most
>> recent version and pop it onto the pov home page. Once they decide they
>> will add support for a new platform they obligate themselves not only to
>> the end user but also ethically to themselves to continue support for that
>> platform. Just about anyone with access to a Sparc, UltraSparc can throw
>> together a working compile of Pov but who is going to continue supporting
>> that platform ?
>
>What difference does it make?   Really?  Ask that question out loud and then go look
at
>the "Official SunOS binaries" on the www.povray.org website.  While you are there,
look at
>the text on the page ...  "SunOS version (version 3.02, not yet updated to 3.1)".

Actually, there's another reason the team can't just get someone to build 
a SunOS version and send it to them: it might not be just a straightforward 
compile.  There might be problems with the port that would need to be 
resolved by someone who understands the OS it's running on.  I seem to 
recall that the team was looking for a member who could do SunOS work
about a year ago, long before I was asked to join.  The lack of a current
SunOS version is not for lack of _wanting_ one, it's for lack of someone
who was willing to commit to the amount of very real work that's required
to build a working version and stand behind it.

>Again, ask the question.  What difference does it make if you support the build on
Solaris
>at all.  It is NOT supported now.  There has not been an official release of POV-Ray
for
>Sun Solaris in how long?  A year?  Two?  The current version for SunOS or UNIX on the
>"Official" POV-Ray web site is so out of date that I am surprised that it is there at
all.

There are still 3.0 and earlier versions for other operating systems too.  Just
because they're obsolete doesn't mean they're any less official.

>This is lip-service.  There is no need to buy a HP9000 system to build POV-Ray for
HPUX. 
>There is no need to buy a Sun Ultra 2300 for UltraSparc and Solaris 8.  (The
pre-release
>for Solaris 8 is out)  Look at the size and number of the POV-Ray user community.  I
would
>hazard to guess that most POV-Ray users are serious computer professionals.  How do
you
>think that Linux bacame what it is today?  By allowing many people to participate in
the
>open source concept and by using the talents of your vast user community.  

True, to a point.  If you want to build the current source and contribute any
source patches back to the team, there's nothing keeping you from doing that.
There's also nothing keeping you from compiling a custom version and 
distributing it.  But I hope you understand how someone wouldn't want to stand 
behind and support a distribution that they couldn't even run, let alone test.


>> Chris Cason supports
>> the windows version and probably the dos version as well, Thorsten Frolich

Actually, Ken, I believe Chris Young is in charge of the DOS version.

>If anyone wants my build, they can send an email and ask for it.  No problem. 

If it's not too big, I'd be happy to host a binary on my website, such as it
is.

>  Long term support is a myth.  It is a lie that marketing people say to customers
just
>before they drop the technology.  Welcome to modern business.  

That's one of the differences between business and open source, isn't it?

>I may be dead next week.  I may step out in front of a truck.  Any organization of
people
>that depends on a few individuals to maintain a product, is doomed.

Even if the entire POV-Team got wiped out tomorrow in some global catastrophic 
accident, I'm sure someone dedicated could sort out the resulting minor legal 
mess and carry on the work.  But there's a kernel of truth to what you say: as
I understand it, the reason there's not a 3.1 SunOS build is that the person on
the team who was doing SunOS left to pursue other interests.  Last I heard, the
position was still open.

Also, I get the impression that you think I'm speaking for the team here.  While
I'm a member of the team, I don't presume to speak for them.  That's Chris 
Young's job.  I'm just stating my opinions, which would be roughly the same even
if I weren't a member of the team.

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