>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>> kind.
> 
> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of 
> reference.  Other people experience this as well.

OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in 
the last year then?

> Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know 
> that progress is being made.

See above.

>> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
>> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.
> 
> And you've been at it how long?

Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20 
years now.

> Learning to play music takes years of 
> practice.  You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started 
> learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the 
> field.   It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons 
> that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.

Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75% 
of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get 
significantly better now.

> And for what it's worth, 
> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand 
> when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two 
> left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of 
> those things is something that I find impressive.

Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.

>> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
>> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
>> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
>> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
>> and there's nothing I can do about it.
> 
> Just keep trying.  Like I said before, if you don't try to find something 
> else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the 
> rest of your life.  That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out 
> there.

Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to 
find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you 
accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational person.)

> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too - 
> including looking in other parts of the country.

Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even 
know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd 
actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.

>  You drive almost 2.5
> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about 
> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton 
> Keynes

Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop* 
doing.

> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently 
> afford a flat of your own.

Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat 
than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap 
flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)

>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
>> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
>> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
>> interviewed anybody else.)
> 
> That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.

It's the only performance measurement I have.

>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]
> 
> And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current 
> version.

Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which 
I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the 
amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up 
with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should 
do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)

> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?  
> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort 
> of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of 
> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.

Um... I don't know anybody?

>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
>> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
> 
> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then 
> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.

Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and 
demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do 
something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing 
nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other 
area of my life, BTW.)

>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>> soul-destroying.
> 
> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?

Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot 
of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a 
cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of 
depression.)

>>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>>> even try.
>> I don't think that's the main problem.
> 
> That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.
> 
>> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
>> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
>> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.
> 
> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those 
> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.

Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at 
programming in my entire life?

It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure, 
I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to 
follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.

What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those 
jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.

>> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
>> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
>> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
>> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
>> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
>> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
>> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.
> 
> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that 
> customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case.  You just 
> think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many 
> different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is 
> the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.
> 
> It's not, and you need to recognise that.

Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.

In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver 
tree. :-P

Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly 
abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a 
salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management 
consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to 
write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that 
utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills 
I don't have?

>> Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
>> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
>> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
>> C++ right now?
> 
> Many reasons.  The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money 
> than the company can afford.  Posted job requirements (like the "demand" 
> for 3 years experience) are flexible.  Sometimes they mean it, but 
> sometimes they don't.  The only way to find out is to ask.  If you have 
> something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.

Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with 
programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms 
they want.

>> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
>> find them...
>>
>> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.
> 
> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this 
> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least then 
> you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".

I have been looking for quite some time though.

>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>> only to "tax man".
> 
> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every 
> systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the 
> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said 
> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with 
> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can 
> understand."

No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually 
involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no 
support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital 
item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you 
when you do get something right." No thanks...

>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
>> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
>> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
>> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
>> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
>> the spot.
> 
> You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm 
> really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position 
> still available?"
> 
> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not go 
> for people who ask once and then give up.

I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a 
troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.

>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
>> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
>> either.
> 
> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here - 

Never reached much of a conclusion though.

> Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
> crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.

When? After 20 years or something?

>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>
> 
> The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do some 
> research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?

Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you 
could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the 
money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to 
selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.

> Find 
> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.  
> Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but 
> some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the 
> position.
> 
> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front 
> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who 
> knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.

I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days 
to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a 
nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.

> And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they 
> weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's 
> their loss.

See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire 
world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?

> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if you 
> don't, you gave it your all.

Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so 
uplifting. :-/

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 03 May 2009 19:34:43 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>>> kind.
>> 
>> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of
>> reference.  Other people experience this as well.
> 
> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
> the last year then?

You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up 
dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total 
strangers.

This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped 
into my head.

> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
> years now.

You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?

> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
> significantly better now.

Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.

>> And for what it's worth,
>> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left
>> hand when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to
>> two left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both
>> of those things is something that I find impressive.
> 
> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.

Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool" 
doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.  I personally 
don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at 
something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it 
sincerely.

> Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to
> find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you
> accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational
> person.)

If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my 
circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.

When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop 
looking.  The world's a big place, and until you've exhausted all the 
possibilities (and I mean *all* of them), don't assume it doesn't exist.  
Your problem is in your assumptions.

>> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too -
>> including looking in other parts of the country.
> 
> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.

How many times did you contact them?

>>  You drive almost 2.5
>> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about
>> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to
>> Milton Keynes
> 
> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
> doing.

There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move 
your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work 
nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2 
has to be a consideration.

>> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently afford a
>> flat of your own.
> 
> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)

Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not 
the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be very 
popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.  You 
might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell 
properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as 
well.

>>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got
>>> me a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the
>>> bosses. And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they
>>> even interviewed anybody else.)
>> 
>> That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.
> 
> It's the only performance measurement I have.

Mate, if I spent my entire life looking back at my failures (which are 
many, let's start with not finishing school), I'd never have got 
anywhere.  Stop worrying about the "performance measurement" and work 
towards making the change.

Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?

>>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I
>>> [...]
>> 
>> And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current
>> version.
> 
> Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which
> I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the
> amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up
> with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should
> do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)

There's always room for improvement, yes.  The last one I saw here looked 
pretty good to me as well as I recall.

>> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?
>> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this
>> sort of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of
>> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.
> 
> Um... I don't know anybody?

You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect 
(hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the connections 
one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most 
interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to those connections.

>>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them,
>>> does it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
>> 
>> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then
>> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.
> 
> Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and
> demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do
> something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing
> nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other
> area of my life, BTW.)

Have you tried asking others about nonconventional ways of meeting people 
and networking for work?  Don't say you don't know anybody - there's a 
bunch of people here you "know" (in the online sense) and whom you've met 
in real life a few times.

>>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>>> soul-destroying.
>> 
>> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?
> 
> Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot
> of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a
> cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of
> depression.)

Beats being employed? ;-)  (Go ahead, laugh...it's funny).  Searching for 
a new job eventually will give you a new job.  It takes time, sometimes a 
lot of time.

>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
> 
> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
> programming in my entire life?

Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their 
professional life.  When I got my current job (as a testing program 
manager), I had absolutely no experience at IT testing.  That didn't 
prohibit me from getting the job (in fairness, I didn't apply for it, it 
was thrust upon me).  When I took my first job running the computer 
network at my uni, I had no experience with computer networking 
whatsoever.

> It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure,
> I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to
> follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.

No, but at the same time, those architects didn't instantly obtain the 
experience that put them in the job they're in.  They started by first 
learning about architecture and how physical structures are built.  Then 
they worked with other architects to build their first structures.  And 
today, guess what, they *still* work with a team and not on their own 
when it comes to building major structures.

Why?

Because nobody on the team has enough experience and knowledge to account 
for every piece of the structure.

That's what a team is and does.

Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with 
the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?

> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.

Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly 
used term.  Permute the search terms.

>> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is
>> that customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case. 
>> You just think it is because that's your only experience, and like in
>> so many different parts of your life, you make the leap that your
>> experience is the only possible experience and that that's just the way
>> the world works.
>> 
>> It's not, and you need to recognise that.
> 
> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
> 
> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
> tree. :-P

I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable 
expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.

And often times, I take the unreasonable ones and make them be reasonable.

A lot of times, customers start out at the "unreasonable" end of the 
scale because they recognise that if they start at the "reasonable" end 
of the scale, getting what they want is unlikely.  So they start out 
being unreasonable with the expectation that they will be negotiated to 
"reasonable".

It's like buying a car here in the US.  The dealer starts at a price that 
gives him a very good commission and some customers are going to just 
accept it and pay the price.

Some are going to negotiate that down.

Now if the dealer asks for the sticker price, he's not likely to get a 
good commission, is he?  Why?  Because the sticker price doesn't include 
a high commission.

It's called "negotiation".  People often ask for far more than they 
expect to get as a means of getting what they do expect to get.  If you 
start at what you expect to get, then often times you end up getting less.

> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
> I don't have?

10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing 
position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.

It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people 
effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which 
was a real shock and surprise.

Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're good 
at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your preconceived 
notions.

> Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with
> programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms
> they want.

Or possibly that the market isn't flooded but with the economy being 
down, they're using fewer people to do the same job.  Eventually that 
stops working and they will need to hire more programmers.  You are 
correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point 
(my company just did a layoff as the end of our second quarter, in 
fact).  But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need 
to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might 
otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.

Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be 
the first to put a number on the table.  When I came to my current 
employer 6 years ago, I took a pay cut.  I walked in knowing that I would 
probably have to take one, and knowing what my bottom line was.  I asked 
about salary, the answer was "what are you making now?".  I told my then 
future boss, and he said "I can't do that".  I told him to give me a 
number and I'd tell him if it was good enough; he did, and it was within 
the range I wanted.

The first year, they made the difference up.

Point is, I let them dictate the terms and while I took a pay cut, I (a) 
got to work with technologies I wanted to work with, and (b) I ultimately 
got what I wanted in terms of pay.  I had to wait less than 12 months.

>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least
>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
> 
> I have been looking for quite some time though.

When did you last actively look?

>>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>>> only to "tax man".
>> 
>> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every
>> systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the
>> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said
>> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with
>> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can
>> understand."
> 
> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
> when you do get something right." No thanks...

Again, your experience is based on one company.  I am telling you that 
while there are places like that, not all places are.  That's not 
hyperbole, that's based on my actual real-world experience.  Just because 
you haven't had the fortune to have that kind of experience doesn't mean 
it doesn't happen.

>>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work
>>> related to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde
>>> wanted a Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more
>>> information, email XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever
>>> receive a reply. Either I'm just that infamous or there's that many
>>> other people fighting for the spot.
>> 
>> You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey,
>> I'm really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the
>> position still available?"
>> 
>> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not
>> go for people who ask once and then give up.
> 
> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.

Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though - 
did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response, 
or did you follow up?

>>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if
>>> it's feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be
>>> possible either.
>> 
>> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here
>> -
> 
> Never reached much of a conclusion though.
> 
>> Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
>> crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.
> 
> When? After 20 years or something?

It pays off when it pays off.  And when it does, things will change.  
Until then, don't give up - if you give up, then things are guaranteed to 
not change.  You want change for the better, right?

>>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>>
>>>
>> The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do
>> some research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?
> 
> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.

Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry classified 
ads?

I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly 
regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't just 
recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.

>> Find
>> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR
>> department. Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal
>> process", but some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm
>> about taking the position.
>> 
>> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front
>> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had
>> who knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.
> 
> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.

The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.  Hey, you gained 
the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said 
earlier, that's progress.  As you do more of it, you'll get more 
confident at it.  Yes, I know that's counterintuitive and your way of 
thinking will lead you to "more failure will make me more confident? 
WTF?"  It's the practice in talking with people.

>> And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they
>> weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's
>> their loss.
> 
> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?

Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.  So if they 
turn you down and they haven't take the time to get to know you better, 
then they pretty much suck at knowing that you're the one they're really 
looking for.  You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn 
things.  Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then 
it's their loss.

>> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if
>> you don't, you gave it your all.
> 
> Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so
> uplifting. :-/

Harsh reality of the world:  Sometimes it's not enough.  But if you gave 
it your all and they didn't see that you're the person they need, then 
it's not your fault, it's theirs.  You can't control what other people 
do, and if they reject you when you are the right candidate for the job, 
then it really is their problem.  So you move on to the next opportunity, 
and the next, and the next, until someone recognises your skills.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
>> the last year then?
> 
> You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up 
> dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total 
> strangers.
> 
> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped 
> into my head.

Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing 
classes I did last year...

I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but 
it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside" 
easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter 
entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort 
I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)

>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>> years now.
> 
> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?

I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been 
playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.

>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
>> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>> significantly better now.
> 
> Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.

I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get 
*significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a 
virtuoso organist or something.)

>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
> 
> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool" 
> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.

That's what it feels like.

> I personally 
> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at 
> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it 
> sincerely.

Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of 
lame.

> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my 
> circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.

You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.

During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not 
trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It 
doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now, 
logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but 
it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life 
experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to 
you to encourage you.)

> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop 
> looking.

Makes sense...

>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
>> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
> 
> How many times did you contact them?

Only once. They're not deaf.

>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
>> doing.
> 
> There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move 
> your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work 
> nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2 
> has to be a consideration.

I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen 
that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.

(On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder 
for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)

>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
> 
> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not 
> the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be very 
> popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.  You 
> might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell 
> properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as 
> well.

I guess I'd have to investigate that one.

> Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?

Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra. 
Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick 
counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)

>> Um... I don't know anybody?
> 
> You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect 
> (hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the connections 
> one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most 
> interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to those connections.

Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...

>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>> programming in my entire life?
> 
> Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their 
> professional life.

Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no 
point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it up.

> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with 
> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?

No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.

>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
>> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
> 
> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly 
> used term.  Permute the search terms.

I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was 
some sort of management position. :-/

>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>
>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>> tree. :-P
> 
> I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable 
> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.

Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your 
year, doesn't it.

>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
>> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
>> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
>> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
>> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
>> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
>> I don't have?
> 
> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing 
> position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
> 
> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people 
> effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which 
> was a real shock and surprise.
> 
> Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're good 
> at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your preconceived 
> notions.

Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the 
things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what 
they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it 
20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good 
enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you 
and you will do as you're told, bitch!

At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to 
do, and they know when you've done it.

> You are 
> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point 
> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need 
> to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might 
> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.

I'm not sure I follow...

> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be 
> the first to put a number on the table.

Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his 
opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...

>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least
>>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
> 
> When did you last actively look?

If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time 
I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.

>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
>> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
>> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
>> when you do get something right." No thanks...
> 
> Again, your experience is based on one company.

I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF 
seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is 
ubiquitous in the IT industry.

> I am telling you that 
> while there are places like that, not all places are.

How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S

>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
> 
> Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though - 
> did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response, 
> or did you follow up?

They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever 
happened. The end.

>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
>> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
> 
> Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry classified 
> ads?

Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and 
secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano 
tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right? 
But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing 
related to IT.

(Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh 
no, we don't do IT any more".)

> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly 
> regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't just 
> recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.

Well, maybe.

>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
>> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
>> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
> 
> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.

False.

I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any 
easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find 
out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at 
you, which is almost as bad...

> Hey, you gained 
> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said 
> earlier, that's progress.

That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but sure.

>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
> 
> Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.

I see...

> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn 
> things.  Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then 
> it's their loss.

Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the 
entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard 
to keep telling yourself that it's true.

If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 03 May 2009 22:27:49 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>> You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up
>> dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total
>> strangers.
>> 
>> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped
>> into my head.
> 
> Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing
> classes I did last year...

But even that was a step in the right direction.

> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)

Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and 
read.  If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll 
come over and talk to you about it.  Perhaps not.  But if you're not out 
there, they don't have the opportunity at all.

>>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>>> years now.
>> 
>> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?
> 
> I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been
> playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.

OK.

>>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about
>>> 75% of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>>> significantly better now.
>> 
>> Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.
> 
> I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get
> *significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a
> virtuoso organist or something.)

Um, nobody wakes up and becomes a virtuoso overnight.

>>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
>> 
>> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool"
>> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.
> 
> That's what it feels like.

Start with the assumption that people like it.  Hey, you've posted the 
audio and video files, that's more than I've done with the things I'm 
good at.  Don't stop posting them, and at the same time, don't be 
discouraged just because people don't fall at your feet and praise your 
musical genius.

>> I personally
>> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at
>> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it
>> sincerely.
> 
> Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of
> lame.

Yeah, and especially in writing, it's hard to express enthusiasm (at 
least it is for me) in a way that doesn't sound fake.  That doesn't mean 
I'm not impressed, it means I can't find the words to express my reaction.

>> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my
>> circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.
> 
> You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.

You can be.  Just don't give up.

> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)

Well, I'm encouraging you.  Don't give up.  It's good that you recognise 
that not trying guarantees failure.  Trying sometimes also leads to 
failure.  But the one thing you get even out of failure is experience, 
and experience is a positive thing if you learn from it.  And by "learn 
from it" I don't mean learn that it's futile, I mean learn about how 
people react to things and then change your approach so people react more 
favorably.  It takes time, and it takes practice.

>> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop
>> looking.
> 
> Makes sense...

Like I said, been there, done that.  Was a period of my life where I was 
quitting a job every 18 months or so while trying to find the right fit.  
I am pretty happy where I am now, but that doesn't mean I'm not keeping 
my eyes open for the next opportunity.

>>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if
>>> they'd actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
>> 
>> How many times did you contact them?
> 
> Only once. They're not deaf.

They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual 
contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed 
more interest than you?  You have to be persistent or they're not going 
to think your serious about wanting the job.

They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he 
expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere 
else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate, 
maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him 
instead because he's made our job easier."

>>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to
>>> *stop* doing.
>> 
>> There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move
>> your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work
>> nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option
>> 2 has to be a consideration.
> 
> I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen
> that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.
> 
> (On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder
> for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)

I really liked the area I grew up in.  I didn't like a lot of the people 
I went to school with, but I did like the neighborhood.  But I also 
needed to get away from my parents, so I moved across the country.

I went to school in Florida, and now live in Utah.  I grew up in 
Minnesota.  And I like going back there.

If you want a sane road system, move to Utah.  The city is on a grid.  
Doesn't get much more sane than that.  The people are nice, the weather's 
pretty moderate (gets bloody hot in the summers at times, though, "but 
it's a dry heat".  Yeah, but dry or not, it's still damned hot).

Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.

>>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
>> 
>> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably
>> not the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be
>> very popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in. 
>> You might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to
>> sell properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental
>> properties as well.
> 
> I guess I'd have to investigate that one.

That's a good start.  Now go and do it. :-)

>> Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?
> 
> Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra.
> Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick
> counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)

You didn't answer my question.  Do you want the change?  And if so, how 
badly do you want it?  What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that 
it happens?

I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the 
qualifications.  But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately 
are in control of what happens.  It may not feel like it at times - as 
I've said, I know that all too well.  Getting asked to resign from a job 
left me feeling completely out of control.  I wallowed in self pity for a 
few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about 
it.  And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts 
(small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.

>>> Um... I don't know anybody?
>> 
>> You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect
>> (hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the
>> connections one point away, it's the ones two and three points away
>> that are the most interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to
>> those connections.
> 
> Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...

Tomorrow's fine.  I check my e-mail regularly.

>>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>>> programming in my entire life?
>> 
>> Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their
>> professional life.
> 
> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
> up.

Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something 
unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they 
didn't know they had.  I told you how I interviewed for a software 
engineering position that I was seriously unqualified for.  That was the 
first time I applied for a job at Novell.  The second time was a 
consulting position (and like you, I didn't want to do the customer-
facing stuff at that time, and I wasn't overly impressed with the pay 
scale, either).  The third time, I interviewed for a teaching position - 
I didn't think I'd get it because I had no instructional skills 
whatsoever.  The closest I'd done to teaching a classroom full of 
students was presenting an hour-long session at a conference a few 
times.  And that's a LOT different than teaching a class with hands-on 
labs.

But I got that position - in no small part because I did an interview 
with the engineers who interviewed me in the first interview and they 
remembered me and my skills from that first interview.

And they recommended me for the teaching job on that basis.

So while the first interview was - as you might say - pointless because I 
was hideously underqualified, it played into a later interview that got 
me a job that I really enjoyed.

Oh, and you know what - the teaching bit?  They trained me on how to do 
it, saying that my technical skills were top-notch and teaching is 
something that I could learn.

>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
> 
> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.

Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have by 
taking a sysadmin job.

>>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but
>>> those jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
>> 
>> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly
>> used term.  Permute the search terms.
> 
> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/

Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)

>>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>>
>>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>>> tree. :-P
>> 
>> I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable
>> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.
> 
> Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your
> year, doesn't it.

Surprisingly, no.  I had one a few weeks ago who threatened to sue the 
company if I didn't do what he wanted.  What he wanted was completely 
unreasonable.  But he said the magic words "I'll get my lawyer involved 
if I have to" so he became someone else's problem.

I had another who had a problem taking an exam he wasn't fully prepared 
to take and he wanted us - rather, demanded - that we pay his travel 
expenses.  I told him no, and the "no" stuck.  He ended up taking the 
exam and he failed it.

Neither of these guys ruined my year.  In fact I've had a pretty good 
year so far.

By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should 
never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.  Yet most 
people who deal with customers don't have bad years and stay with it.  
It's not because they're masochists, it's because they learn how to deal 
with people who are being unreasonable in a constructive way.

>>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be
>>> horrifyingly abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer.
>>> I'm not a salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a
>>> management consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left
>>> alone to write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a
>>> job that utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch
>>> of skills I don't have?
>> 
>> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing
>> position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
>> 
>> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with
>> people effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it
>> - which was a real shock and surprise.
>> 
>> Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're
>> good at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your
>> preconceived notions.
> 
> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
> and you will do as you're told, bitch!

You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.  They take advantage of 
the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.  
Don't let them get away with it.  Yes, it's hard to deal with if you 
don't have the practice.

Point out to them that if it's so damned easy, they can do it 
themselves.  When they realise they can't, then you tell them that's why 
you're there - because it's NOT easy and you happen to have the skills.  
So if they want you to fix something for them that they are clearly not 
capable of fixing on their own, they are going to have to show you a 
little damned respect.

> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
> do, and they know when you've done it.

That's not a guarantee.  I deal with technical people on a daily basis 
and if they don't understand the technology being used, they're just as 
clueless as a user asking for help with a Word macro.  I've got one who 
insists that because LDAP can't sort a search output on two keys, it's 
completely unsuitable for any data storage whatsoever.  His background is 
in database technologies, and he doesn't understand the benefits of non-
SQL database solutions to store identities.

He's completely wrong in his assumptions, but won't be told any 
differently, even by people with expertise in the technology he's 
disparaging.  At the same time, he talks about one of his coworkers like 
the guy has no technical skills at all (I've known the guy he's talking 
about for about 15 years and I know he's pretty sharp) and points out 
every mistake the other guy makes.

Point is, technical people are not immune to demonstrating the dumb.

>> You are
>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
> 
> I'm not sure I follow...

Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.

If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at 
$1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.

You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.

So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer 
$1000, and they agree.

If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening 
offer of $2000.

Does that make sense?

>> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be
>> the first to put a number on the table.
> 
> Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his
> opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...

Sort of, yeah.  Negotiation is a skill that can be learned.

>>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and
>>>> this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at
>>>> least then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
>> 
>> When did you last actively look?
> 
> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.

So it's been a couple of weeks.  When's the last time you followed up 
with them?  Follow-up is important.

>>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with
>>> no support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some
>>> vital item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to
>>> thank you when you do get something right." No thanks...
>> 
>> Again, your experience is based on one company.
> 
> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.

It's not just one company, but it's also not all companies.  The Daily 
WTF doesn't represent all experiences.  It only represents the ones that 
make you go "WTF?" or the ones that are funny.

It wouldn't go to their title to report on an admin who's treated by the 
staff like a normal human being, would it?  It might make people ask "WTF 
is up with TDWTF?", but that's about it.

>> I am telling you that
>> while there are places like that, not all places are.
> 
> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S

By wading through the ones that are.  You have to interview them when 
they interview you.  The interview is not the one-way process that most 
people seem to think it is.  It's a chance for them to get you, but also 
a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.

Most people don't take the opportunity to interview the prospective 
employer.  A lot of people, when asked if they have any questions about 
the job of the company respond with some variation of "not at this time" 
- but "this time" is the perfect opportunity.  Ask to speak to some of 
the people on the team you're becoming a part of, and ask them what daily 
life is like, if there's anything that makes them shake their head, how 
the users treat them as technical staff.  It never hurts to ask what 
you're getting into - and asking if you can ask those questions also 
tells the prospective employer that you're serious about wanting the job, 
but also about wanting the job to be a good fit for you.

>>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
>> 
>> Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though
>> - did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a
>> response, or did you follow up?
> 
> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
> happened. The end.

E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them.  Maybe it got 
caught in a spam folder for some reason.  Maybe they got it and 
accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.  
There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up 
with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".

>>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then
>>> you could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
>> 
>> Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry
>> classified ads?
> 
> Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and
> secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano
> tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right?
> But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing
> related to IT.

Maybe they need more than one.  Who knows?

Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're 
not looking.

> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)

Then those are ones not to talk to if you want to stay in IT.

>> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly
>> regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't
>> just recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.
> 
> Well, maybe.

Trust me, they do.  I occasionally work with people who are hiring for 
various positions, and have some friends/former co-workers who work as 
recruiters.  The successful ones look and post in multiple venues.

>>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7
>>> days to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being
>>> a nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
>> 
>> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.
> 
> False.

Oh, really?  Worked for me, so I'll call your "false" and raise you a 
"true".

> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
> you, which is almost as bad...

Trust me, it isn't.  You can always hang up on them if they start 
shouting at you.

>> Hey, you gained
>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>> said earlier, that's progress.
> 
> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
> sure.

Think of it as gained confidence.

>>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
>> 
>> Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.
> 
> I see...

Good.  Now continue that thinking and say to yourself "if they don't 
think I'm good enough, they're wrong.  They just don't know me well 
enough and are idiots for not taking the time to learn any better."

>> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn things. 
>> Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then it's
>> their loss.
> 
> Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the
> entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard
> to keep telling yourself that it's true.
> 
> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?

Um, you're talking to someone who does think so.  Several others here 
have said so.  But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)

Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the 
words you're reading on the screen right now.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)

Murphy's law book has it as:

Negative expectations lead to negative results.
Positive expectations lead to negative results.

But that whole book is supposed to be funny, not summarize the nature of the
universe, even when you say "that's soooo true" at most of what it says :)

> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/

Look for a better place to do your searches then, that search engine sounds
buggy.

> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.

While employees in other companies enjoy life and read (but don't post to)
the Daily WTF.

http://niniane.org/gds.html

> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)

Like Jim said, maybe IT doesn't "do agencies" anymore, they're all in
linkedin and friends?

Post a reply to this message

>> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
>> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
>> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
>> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
>> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
> 
> Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and 
> read.  If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll 
> come over and talk to you about it.  Perhaps not.  But if you're not out 
> there, they don't have the opportunity at all.

Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach. ;-)

[Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]

>>> How many times did you contact them?
>> Only once. They're not deaf.
> 
> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual 
> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed 
> more interest than you?  You have to be persistent or they're not going 
> to think your serious about wanting the job.

...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a 
PhD? (And I'm not.)

> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he 
> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere 
> else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate, 
> maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him 
> instead because he's made our job easier."

Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself 
through all that again for no benefit.

> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.

Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of 
conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee, 
wonder why that might be...)

> You didn't answer my question.  Do you want the change?  And if so, how 
> badly do you want it?  What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that 
> it happens?
> 
> I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the 
> qualifications.  But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately 
> are in control of what happens.  It may not feel like it at times - as 
> I've said, I know that all too well.  Getting asked to resign from a job 
> left me feeling completely out of control.  I wallowed in self pity for a 
> few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about 
> it.  And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts 
> (small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.

Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there. I can 
*totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or 
summarily reject me. That's in my control too.

>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
>> up.
> 
> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something 
> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they 
> didn't know they had.

Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed 
during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing anybody.

>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
> 
> Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have by 
> taking a sysadmin job.

System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.

> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)

No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.

> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should 
> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.

Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?

>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
> 
> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.

Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to 
avoid people...)

> They take advantage of 
> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.  
> Don't let them get away with it.

I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which, 
arguably, it does).

This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in 
the first place.

>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
>> do, and they know when you've done it.
> 
> That's not a guarantee.

True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.

>>> You are
>>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
>> I'm not sure I follow...
> 
> Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.
> 
> If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at 
> $1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.
> 
> You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.
> 
> So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer 
> $1000, and they agree.
> 
> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening 
> offer of $2000.
> 
> Does that make sense?

Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available 
right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's 
*exactly* what it means. I'm confused...

>>> When did you last actively look?
>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
>> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
> 
> So it's been a couple of weeks.  When's the last time you followed up 
> with them?  Follow-up is important.

The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it go.

But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's 
just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce 
results.

>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
> 
> By wading through the ones that are.  You have to interview them when 
> they interview you.  The interview is not the one-way process that most 
> people seem to think it is.  It's a chance for them to get you, but also 
> a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.

So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you 
may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a 
position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm 
actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff 
seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank 
executives on that ad on TV.)

>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>> happened. The end.
> 
> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them.  Maybe it got 
> caught in a spam folder for some reason.  Maybe they got it and 
> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.  
> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up 
> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".

And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the 
second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.

> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're 
> not looking.

As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.

>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>> you, which is almost as bad...
> 
> Trust me, it isn't.  You can always hang up on them if they start 
> shouting at you.

Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month. 
It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm 
still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why 
the call in the first place, obviously.]

>>> Hey, you gained
>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>> sure.
> 
> Think of it as gained confidence.

It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.

>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
> 
> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so.  Several others here 
> have said so.  But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
> 
> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the 
> words you're reading on the screen right now.

Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
>> some sort of management position. :-/
> 
> Look for a better place to do your searches then, that search engine sounds
> buggy.

Search engines can only return jobs that actually exist.

> Like Jim said, maybe IT doesn't "do agencies" anymore, they're all in
> linkedin and friends?

Perhaps. I don't know.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should 
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
>
>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to 
> avoid people...)

Look for a job where you mostly deal with technical people then.  In my line 
of work the customers I deal with on a daily basis are doing pretty much the 
same job as me, same qualifications, same age range, same tools etc, just on 
a different product for a different company.  I seem to get on fine with all 
of them, we all understand what is possible and what isn't, hardly ever is 
there any disagreement, and even when there is it is very professional and 
we still end up having a good chat over a beer and dinner later - usually 
the cheapest way to get some extra information from the customers.

I remember one meeting where we were given mass production approval for our 
first project with this customer after almost two years of Engineering work 
together - they had brought champagne and cake in for everyone :-)

Post a reply to this message

>>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue 
>>>> what
>>>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they 
>>>> want it
>>>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>>>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>>>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>>
>>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>>
>> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to 
>> avoid people...)
> 
> Look for a job where you mostly deal with technical people then.

I plan to.

> In my 
> line of work the customers I deal with on a daily basis are doing pretty 
> much the same job as me, same qualifications, same age range, same tools 
> etc, just on a different product for a different company.  I seem to get 
> on fine with all of them, we all understand what is possible and what 
> isn't, hardly ever is there any disagreement, and even when there is it 
> is very professional and we still end up having a good chat over a beer 
> and dinner later - usually the cheapest way to get some extra 
> information from the customers.

Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.

> I remember one meeting where we were given mass production approval for 
> our first project with this customer after almost two years of 
> Engineering work together - they had brought champagne and cake in for 
> everyone :-)

The cake is a lie.










...sorry, couldn't resist! :-D

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

> Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.

It has its disadvantages too, because everyone you work with is doing pretty 
similar jobs, you cannot get away with doing things wrong or trying to fob 
off people about how long things will take.  eg if you try to tell the 
customer it will take 6 weeks to make samples, they will know full well 
exactly how long it will take to make samples and will pressure you to make 
them quicker.  Or if you say it will take 1 week to update some drawing, 
they will ask why, because it will only take them 1 day.

This is in contrast to your current job I suspect, where most of the people 
you work with don't know exactly what you do and how long it takes you. 
WARNING if you get a new job you may not have time to post here :-(

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