>> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
>> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
>> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
>> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
>> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
> 
> Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and 
> read.  If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll 
> come over and talk to you about it.  Perhaps not.  But if you're not out 
> there, they don't have the opportunity at all.

Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach. ;-)

[Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]

>>> How many times did you contact them?
>> Only once. They're not deaf.
> 
> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual 
> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed 
> more interest than you?  You have to be persistent or they're not going 
> to think your serious about wanting the job.

...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a 
PhD? (And I'm not.)

> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he 
> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere 
> else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate, 
> maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him 
> instead because he's made our job easier."

Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself 
through all that again for no benefit.

> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.

Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of 
conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee, 
wonder why that might be...)

> You didn't answer my question.  Do you want the change?  And if so, how 
> badly do you want it?  What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that 
> it happens?
> 
> I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the 
> qualifications.  But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately 
> are in control of what happens.  It may not feel like it at times - as 
> I've said, I know that all too well.  Getting asked to resign from a job 
> left me feeling completely out of control.  I wallowed in self pity for a 
> few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about 
> it.  And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts 
> (small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.

Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there. I can 
*totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or 
summarily reject me. That's in my control too.

>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
>> up.
> 
> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something 
> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they 
> didn't know they had.

Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed 
during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing anybody.

>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
> 
> Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have by 
> taking a sysadmin job.

System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.

> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)

No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.

> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should 
> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.

Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?

>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
> 
> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.

Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to 
avoid people...)

> They take advantage of 
> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.  
> Don't let them get away with it.

I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which, 
arguably, it does).

This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in 
the first place.

>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
>> do, and they know when you've done it.
> 
> That's not a guarantee.

True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.

>>> You are
>>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
>> I'm not sure I follow...
> 
> Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.
> 
> If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at 
> $1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.
> 
> You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.
> 
> So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer 
> $1000, and they agree.
> 
> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening 
> offer of $2000.
> 
> Does that make sense?

Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available 
right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's 
*exactly* what it means. I'm confused...

>>> When did you last actively look?
>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
>> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
> 
> So it's been a couple of weeks.  When's the last time you followed up 
> with them?  Follow-up is important.

The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it go.

But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's 
just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce 
results.

>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
> 
> By wading through the ones that are.  You have to interview them when 
> they interview you.  The interview is not the one-way process that most 
> people seem to think it is.  It's a chance for them to get you, but also 
> a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.

So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you 
may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a 
position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm 
actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff 
seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank 
executives on that ad on TV.)

>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>> happened. The end.
> 
> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them.  Maybe it got 
> caught in a spam folder for some reason.  Maybe they got it and 
> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.  
> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up 
> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".

And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the 
second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.

> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're 
> not looking.

As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.

>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>> you, which is almost as bad...
> 
> Trust me, it isn't.  You can always hang up on them if they start 
> shouting at you.

Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month. 
It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm 
still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why 
the call in the first place, obviously.]

>>> Hey, you gained
>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>> sure.
> 
> Think of it as gained confidence.

It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.

>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
> 
> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so.  Several others here 
> have said so.  But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
> 
> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the 
> words you're reading on the screen right now.

Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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