>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>> kind.
> 
> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of 
> reference.  Other people experience this as well.

OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in 
the last year then?

> Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know 
> that progress is being made.

See above.

>> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
>> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.
> 
> And you've been at it how long?

Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20 
years now.

> Learning to play music takes years of 
> practice.  You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started 
> learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the 
> field.   It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons 
> that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.

Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75% 
of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get 
significantly better now.

> And for what it's worth, 
> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand 
> when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two 
> left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of 
> those things is something that I find impressive.

Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.

>> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
>> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
>> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
>> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
>> and there's nothing I can do about it.
> 
> Just keep trying.  Like I said before, if you don't try to find something 
> else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the 
> rest of your life.  That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out 
> there.

Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to 
find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you 
accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational person.)

> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too - 
> including looking in other parts of the country.

Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even 
know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd 
actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.

>  You drive almost 2.5
> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about 
> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton 
> Keynes

Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop* 
doing.

> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently 
> afford a flat of your own.

Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat 
than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap 
flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)

>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
>> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
>> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
>> interviewed anybody else.)
> 
> That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.

It's the only performance measurement I have.

>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]
> 
> And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current 
> version.

Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which 
I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the 
amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up 
with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should 
do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)

> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?  
> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort 
> of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of 
> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.

Um... I don't know anybody?

>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
>> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
> 
> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then 
> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.

Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and 
demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do 
something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing 
nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other 
area of my life, BTW.)

>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>> soul-destroying.
> 
> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?

Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot 
of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a 
cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of 
depression.)

>>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>>> even try.
>> I don't think that's the main problem.
> 
> That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.
> 
>> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
>> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
>> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.
> 
> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those 
> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.

Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at 
programming in my entire life?

It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure, 
I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to 
follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.

What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those 
jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.

>> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
>> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
>> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
>> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
>> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
>> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
>> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.
> 
> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that 
> customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case.  You just 
> think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many 
> different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is 
> the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.
> 
> It's not, and you need to recognise that.

Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.

In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver 
tree. :-P

Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly 
abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a 
salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management 
consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to 
write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that 
utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills 
I don't have?

>> Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
>> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
>> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
>> C++ right now?
> 
> Many reasons.  The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money 
> than the company can afford.  Posted job requirements (like the "demand" 
> for 3 years experience) are flexible.  Sometimes they mean it, but 
> sometimes they don't.  The only way to find out is to ask.  If you have 
> something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.

Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with 
programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms 
they want.

>> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
>> find them...
>>
>> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.
> 
> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this 
> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least then 
> you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".

I have been looking for quite some time though.

>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>> only to "tax man".
> 
> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every 
> systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the 
> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said 
> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with 
> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can 
> understand."

No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually 
involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no 
support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital 
item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you 
when you do get something right." No thanks...

>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
>> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
>> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
>> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
>> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
>> the spot.
> 
> You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm 
> really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position 
> still available?"
> 
> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not go 
> for people who ask once and then give up.

I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a 
troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.

>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
>> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
>> either.
> 
> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here - 

Never reached much of a conclusion though.

> Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
> crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.

When? After 20 years or something?

>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>
> 
> The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do some 
> research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?

Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you 
could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the 
money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to 
selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.

> Find 
> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.  
> Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but 
> some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the 
> position.
> 
> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front 
> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who 
> knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.

I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days 
to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a 
nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.

> And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they 
> weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's 
> their loss.

See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire 
world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?

> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if you 
> don't, you gave it your all.

Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so 
uplifting. :-/

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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