On Sun, 03 May 2009 19:34:43 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>>> kind.
>> 
>> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of
>> reference.  Other people experience this as well.
> 
> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
> the last year then?

You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up 
dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total 
strangers.

This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped 
into my head.

> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
> years now.

You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?

> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
> significantly better now.

Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.

>> And for what it's worth,
>> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left
>> hand when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to
>> two left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both
>> of those things is something that I find impressive.
> 
> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.

Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool" 
doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.  I personally 
don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at 
something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it 
sincerely.

> Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to
> find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you
> accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational
> person.)

If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my 
circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.

When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop 
looking.  The world's a big place, and until you've exhausted all the 
possibilities (and I mean *all* of them), don't assume it doesn't exist.  
Your problem is in your assumptions.

>> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too -
>> including looking in other parts of the country.
> 
> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.

How many times did you contact them?

>>  You drive almost 2.5
>> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about
>> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to
>> Milton Keynes
> 
> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
> doing.

There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move 
your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work 
nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2 
has to be a consideration.

>> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently afford a
>> flat of your own.
> 
> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)

Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not 
the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be very 
popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.  You 
might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell 
properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as 
well.

>>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got
>>> me a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the
>>> bosses. And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they
>>> even interviewed anybody else.)
>> 
>> That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.
> 
> It's the only performance measurement I have.

Mate, if I spent my entire life looking back at my failures (which are 
many, let's start with not finishing school), I'd never have got 
anywhere.  Stop worrying about the "performance measurement" and work 
towards making the change.

Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?

>>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I
>>> [...]
>> 
>> And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current
>> version.
> 
> Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which
> I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the
> amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up
> with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should
> do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)

There's always room for improvement, yes.  The last one I saw here looked 
pretty good to me as well as I recall.

>> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?
>> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this
>> sort of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of
>> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.
> 
> Um... I don't know anybody?

You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect 
(hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the connections 
one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most 
interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to those connections.

>>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them,
>>> does it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
>> 
>> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then
>> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.
> 
> Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and
> demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do
> something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing
> nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other
> area of my life, BTW.)

Have you tried asking others about nonconventional ways of meeting people 
and networking for work?  Don't say you don't know anybody - there's a 
bunch of people here you "know" (in the online sense) and whom you've met 
in real life a few times.

>>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>>> soul-destroying.
>> 
>> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?
> 
> Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot
> of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a
> cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of
> depression.)

Beats being employed? ;-)  (Go ahead, laugh...it's funny).  Searching for 
a new job eventually will give you a new job.  It takes time, sometimes a 
lot of time.

>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
> 
> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
> programming in my entire life?

Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their 
professional life.  When I got my current job (as a testing program 
manager), I had absolutely no experience at IT testing.  That didn't 
prohibit me from getting the job (in fairness, I didn't apply for it, it 
was thrust upon me).  When I took my first job running the computer 
network at my uni, I had no experience with computer networking 
whatsoever.

> It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure,
> I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to
> follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.

No, but at the same time, those architects didn't instantly obtain the 
experience that put them in the job they're in.  They started by first 
learning about architecture and how physical structures are built.  Then 
they worked with other architects to build their first structures.  And 
today, guess what, they *still* work with a team and not on their own 
when it comes to building major structures.

Why?

Because nobody on the team has enough experience and knowledge to account 
for every piece of the structure.

That's what a team is and does.

Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with 
the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?

> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.

Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly 
used term.  Permute the search terms.

>> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is
>> that customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case. 
>> You just think it is because that's your only experience, and like in
>> so many different parts of your life, you make the leap that your
>> experience is the only possible experience and that that's just the way
>> the world works.
>> 
>> It's not, and you need to recognise that.
> 
> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
> 
> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
> tree. :-P

I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable 
expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.

And often times, I take the unreasonable ones and make them be reasonable.

A lot of times, customers start out at the "unreasonable" end of the 
scale because they recognise that if they start at the "reasonable" end 
of the scale, getting what they want is unlikely.  So they start out 
being unreasonable with the expectation that they will be negotiated to 
"reasonable".

It's like buying a car here in the US.  The dealer starts at a price that 
gives him a very good commission and some customers are going to just 
accept it and pay the price.

Some are going to negotiate that down.

Now if the dealer asks for the sticker price, he's not likely to get a 
good commission, is he?  Why?  Because the sticker price doesn't include 
a high commission.

It's called "negotiation".  People often ask for far more than they 
expect to get as a means of getting what they do expect to get.  If you 
start at what you expect to get, then often times you end up getting less.

> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
> I don't have?

10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing 
position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.

It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people 
effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which 
was a real shock and surprise.

Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're good 
at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your preconceived 
notions.

> Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with
> programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms
> they want.

Or possibly that the market isn't flooded but with the economy being 
down, they're using fewer people to do the same job.  Eventually that 
stops working and they will need to hire more programmers.  You are 
correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point 
(my company just did a layoff as the end of our second quarter, in 
fact).  But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need 
to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might 
otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.

Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be 
the first to put a number on the table.  When I came to my current 
employer 6 years ago, I took a pay cut.  I walked in knowing that I would 
probably have to take one, and knowing what my bottom line was.  I asked 
about salary, the answer was "what are you making now?".  I told my then 
future boss, and he said "I can't do that".  I told him to give me a 
number and I'd tell him if it was good enough; he did, and it was within 
the range I wanted.

The first year, they made the difference up.

Point is, I let them dictate the terms and while I took a pay cut, I (a) 
got to work with technologies I wanted to work with, and (b) I ultimately 
got what I wanted in terms of pay.  I had to wait less than 12 months.

>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least
>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
> 
> I have been looking for quite some time though.

When did you last actively look?

>>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>>> only to "tax man".
>> 
>> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every
>> systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the
>> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said
>> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with
>> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can
>> understand."
> 
> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
> when you do get something right." No thanks...

Again, your experience is based on one company.  I am telling you that 
while there are places like that, not all places are.  That's not 
hyperbole, that's based on my actual real-world experience.  Just because 
you haven't had the fortune to have that kind of experience doesn't mean 
it doesn't happen.

>>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work
>>> related to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde
>>> wanted a Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more
>>> information, email XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever
>>> receive a reply. Either I'm just that infamous or there's that many
>>> other people fighting for the spot.
>> 
>> You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey,
>> I'm really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the
>> position still available?"
>> 
>> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not
>> go for people who ask once and then give up.
> 
> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.

Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though - 
did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response, 
or did you follow up?

>>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if
>>> it's feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be
>>> possible either.
>> 
>> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here
>> -
> 
> Never reached much of a conclusion though.
> 
>> Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
>> crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.
> 
> When? After 20 years or something?

It pays off when it pays off.  And when it does, things will change.  
Until then, don't give up - if you give up, then things are guaranteed to 
not change.  You want change for the better, right?

>>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>>
>>>
>> The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do
>> some research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?
> 
> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.

Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry classified 
ads?

I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly 
regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't just 
recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.

>> Find
>> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR
>> department. Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal
>> process", but some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm
>> about taking the position.
>> 
>> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front
>> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had
>> who knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.
> 
> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.

The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.  Hey, you gained 
the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said 
earlier, that's progress.  As you do more of it, you'll get more 
confident at it.  Yes, I know that's counterintuitive and your way of 
thinking will lead you to "more failure will make me more confident? 
WTF?"  It's the practice in talking with people.

>> And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they
>> weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's
>> their loss.
> 
> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?

Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.  So if they 
turn you down and they haven't take the time to get to know you better, 
then they pretty much suck at knowing that you're the one they're really 
looking for.  You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn 
things.  Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then 
it's their loss.

>> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if
>> you don't, you gave it your all.
> 
> Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so
> uplifting. :-/

Harsh reality of the world:  Sometimes it's not enough.  But if you gave 
it your all and they didn't see that you're the person they need, then 
it's not your fault, it's theirs.  You can't control what other people 
do, and if they reject you when you are the right candidate for the job, 
then it really is their problem.  So you move on to the next opportunity, 
and the next, and the next, until someone recognises your skills.

Jim

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