On Sun, 03 May 2009 22:27:49 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>> You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up
>> dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total
>> strangers.
>> 
>> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped
>> into my head.
> 
> Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing
> classes I did last year...

But even that was a step in the right direction.

> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)

Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and 
read.  If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll 
come over and talk to you about it.  Perhaps not.  But if you're not out 
there, they don't have the opportunity at all.

>>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>>> years now.
>> 
>> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?
> 
> I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been
> playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.

OK.

>>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about
>>> 75% of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>>> significantly better now.
>> 
>> Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.
> 
> I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get
> *significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a
> virtuoso organist or something.)

Um, nobody wakes up and becomes a virtuoso overnight.

>>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
>> 
>> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool"
>> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.
> 
> That's what it feels like.

Start with the assumption that people like it.  Hey, you've posted the 
audio and video files, that's more than I've done with the things I'm 
good at.  Don't stop posting them, and at the same time, don't be 
discouraged just because people don't fall at your feet and praise your 
musical genius.

>> I personally
>> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at
>> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it
>> sincerely.
> 
> Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of
> lame.

Yeah, and especially in writing, it's hard to express enthusiasm (at 
least it is for me) in a way that doesn't sound fake.  That doesn't mean 
I'm not impressed, it means I can't find the words to express my reaction.

>> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my
>> circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.
> 
> You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.

You can be.  Just don't give up.

> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)

Well, I'm encouraging you.  Don't give up.  It's good that you recognise 
that not trying guarantees failure.  Trying sometimes also leads to 
failure.  But the one thing you get even out of failure is experience, 
and experience is a positive thing if you learn from it.  And by "learn 
from it" I don't mean learn that it's futile, I mean learn about how 
people react to things and then change your approach so people react more 
favorably.  It takes time, and it takes practice.

>> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop
>> looking.
> 
> Makes sense...

Like I said, been there, done that.  Was a period of my life where I was 
quitting a job every 18 months or so while trying to find the right fit.  
I am pretty happy where I am now, but that doesn't mean I'm not keeping 
my eyes open for the next opportunity.

>>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if
>>> they'd actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
>> 
>> How many times did you contact them?
> 
> Only once. They're not deaf.

They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual 
contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed 
more interest than you?  You have to be persistent or they're not going 
to think your serious about wanting the job.

They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he 
expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere 
else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate, 
maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him 
instead because he's made our job easier."

>>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to
>>> *stop* doing.
>> 
>> There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move
>> your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work
>> nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option
>> 2 has to be a consideration.
> 
> I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen
> that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.
> 
> (On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder
> for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)

I really liked the area I grew up in.  I didn't like a lot of the people 
I went to school with, but I did like the neighborhood.  But I also 
needed to get away from my parents, so I moved across the country.

I went to school in Florida, and now live in Utah.  I grew up in 
Minnesota.  And I like going back there.

If you want a sane road system, move to Utah.  The city is on a grid.  
Doesn't get much more sane than that.  The people are nice, the weather's 
pretty moderate (gets bloody hot in the summers at times, though, "but 
it's a dry heat".  Yeah, but dry or not, it's still damned hot).

Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.

>>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
>> 
>> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably
>> not the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be
>> very popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in. 
>> You might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to
>> sell properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental
>> properties as well.
> 
> I guess I'd have to investigate that one.

That's a good start.  Now go and do it. :-)

>> Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?
> 
> Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra.
> Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick
> counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)

You didn't answer my question.  Do you want the change?  And if so, how 
badly do you want it?  What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that 
it happens?

I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the 
qualifications.  But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately 
are in control of what happens.  It may not feel like it at times - as 
I've said, I know that all too well.  Getting asked to resign from a job 
left me feeling completely out of control.  I wallowed in self pity for a 
few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about 
it.  And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts 
(small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.

>>> Um... I don't know anybody?
>> 
>> You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect
>> (hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the
>> connections one point away, it's the ones two and three points away
>> that are the most interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to
>> those connections.
> 
> Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...

Tomorrow's fine.  I check my e-mail regularly.

>>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>>> programming in my entire life?
>> 
>> Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their
>> professional life.
> 
> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
> up.

Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something 
unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they 
didn't know they had.  I told you how I interviewed for a software 
engineering position that I was seriously unqualified for.  That was the 
first time I applied for a job at Novell.  The second time was a 
consulting position (and like you, I didn't want to do the customer-
facing stuff at that time, and I wasn't overly impressed with the pay 
scale, either).  The third time, I interviewed for a teaching position - 
I didn't think I'd get it because I had no instructional skills 
whatsoever.  The closest I'd done to teaching a classroom full of 
students was presenting an hour-long session at a conference a few 
times.  And that's a LOT different than teaching a class with hands-on 
labs.

But I got that position - in no small part because I did an interview 
with the engineers who interviewed me in the first interview and they 
remembered me and my skills from that first interview.

And they recommended me for the teaching job on that basis.

So while the first interview was - as you might say - pointless because I 
was hideously underqualified, it played into a later interview that got 
me a job that I really enjoyed.

Oh, and you know what - the teaching bit?  They trained me on how to do 
it, saying that my technical skills were top-notch and teaching is 
something that I could learn.

>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
> 
> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.

Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have by 
taking a sysadmin job.

>>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but
>>> those jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
>> 
>> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly
>> used term.  Permute the search terms.
> 
> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/

Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)

>>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>>
>>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>>> tree. :-P
>> 
>> I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable
>> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.
> 
> Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your
> year, doesn't it.

Surprisingly, no.  I had one a few weeks ago who threatened to sue the 
company if I didn't do what he wanted.  What he wanted was completely 
unreasonable.  But he said the magic words "I'll get my lawyer involved 
if I have to" so he became someone else's problem.

I had another who had a problem taking an exam he wasn't fully prepared 
to take and he wanted us - rather, demanded - that we pay his travel 
expenses.  I told him no, and the "no" stuck.  He ended up taking the 
exam and he failed it.

Neither of these guys ruined my year.  In fact I've had a pretty good 
year so far.

By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should 
never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.  Yet most 
people who deal with customers don't have bad years and stay with it.  
It's not because they're masochists, it's because they learn how to deal 
with people who are being unreasonable in a constructive way.

>>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be
>>> horrifyingly abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer.
>>> I'm not a salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a
>>> management consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left
>>> alone to write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a
>>> job that utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch
>>> of skills I don't have?
>> 
>> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing
>> position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
>> 
>> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with
>> people effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it
>> - which was a real shock and surprise.
>> 
>> Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're
>> good at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your
>> preconceived notions.
> 
> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
> and you will do as you're told, bitch!

You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.  They take advantage of 
the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.  
Don't let them get away with it.  Yes, it's hard to deal with if you 
don't have the practice.

Point out to them that if it's so damned easy, they can do it 
themselves.  When they realise they can't, then you tell them that's why 
you're there - because it's NOT easy and you happen to have the skills.  
So if they want you to fix something for them that they are clearly not 
capable of fixing on their own, they are going to have to show you a 
little damned respect.

> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
> do, and they know when you've done it.

That's not a guarantee.  I deal with technical people on a daily basis 
and if they don't understand the technology being used, they're just as 
clueless as a user asking for help with a Word macro.  I've got one who 
insists that because LDAP can't sort a search output on two keys, it's 
completely unsuitable for any data storage whatsoever.  His background is 
in database technologies, and he doesn't understand the benefits of non-
SQL database solutions to store identities.

He's completely wrong in his assumptions, but won't be told any 
differently, even by people with expertise in the technology he's 
disparaging.  At the same time, he talks about one of his coworkers like 
the guy has no technical skills at all (I've known the guy he's talking 
about for about 15 years and I know he's pretty sharp) and points out 
every mistake the other guy makes.

Point is, technical people are not immune to demonstrating the dumb.

>> You are
>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
> 
> I'm not sure I follow...

Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.

If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at 
$1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.

You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.

So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer 
$1000, and they agree.

If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening 
offer of $2000.

Does that make sense?

>> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be
>> the first to put a number on the table.
> 
> Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his
> opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...

Sort of, yeah.  Negotiation is a skill that can be learned.

>>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and
>>>> this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at
>>>> least then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
>> 
>> When did you last actively look?
> 
> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.

So it's been a couple of weeks.  When's the last time you followed up 
with them?  Follow-up is important.

>>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with
>>> no support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some
>>> vital item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to
>>> thank you when you do get something right." No thanks...
>> 
>> Again, your experience is based on one company.
> 
> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.

It's not just one company, but it's also not all companies.  The Daily 
WTF doesn't represent all experiences.  It only represents the ones that 
make you go "WTF?" or the ones that are funny.

It wouldn't go to their title to report on an admin who's treated by the 
staff like a normal human being, would it?  It might make people ask "WTF 
is up with TDWTF?", but that's about it.

>> I am telling you that
>> while there are places like that, not all places are.
> 
> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S

By wading through the ones that are.  You have to interview them when 
they interview you.  The interview is not the one-way process that most 
people seem to think it is.  It's a chance for them to get you, but also 
a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.

Most people don't take the opportunity to interview the prospective 
employer.  A lot of people, when asked if they have any questions about 
the job of the company respond with some variation of "not at this time" 
- but "this time" is the perfect opportunity.  Ask to speak to some of 
the people on the team you're becoming a part of, and ask them what daily 
life is like, if there's anything that makes them shake their head, how 
the users treat them as technical staff.  It never hurts to ask what 
you're getting into - and asking if you can ask those questions also 
tells the prospective employer that you're serious about wanting the job, 
but also about wanting the job to be a good fit for you.

>>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
>> 
>> Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though
>> - did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a
>> response, or did you follow up?
> 
> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
> happened. The end.

E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them.  Maybe it got 
caught in a spam folder for some reason.  Maybe they got it and 
accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.  
There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up 
with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".

>>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then
>>> you could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
>> 
>> Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry
>> classified ads?
> 
> Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and
> secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano
> tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right?
> But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing
> related to IT.

Maybe they need more than one.  Who knows?

Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're 
not looking.

> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)

Then those are ones not to talk to if you want to stay in IT.

>> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly
>> regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't
>> just recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.
> 
> Well, maybe.

Trust me, they do.  I occasionally work with people who are hiring for 
various positions, and have some friends/former co-workers who work as 
recruiters.  The successful ones look and post in multiple venues.

>>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7
>>> days to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being
>>> a nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
>> 
>> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.
> 
> False.

Oh, really?  Worked for me, so I'll call your "false" and raise you a 
"true".

> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
> you, which is almost as bad...

Trust me, it isn't.  You can always hang up on them if they start 
shouting at you.

>> Hey, you gained
>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>> said earlier, that's progress.
> 
> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
> sure.

Think of it as gained confidence.

>>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
>> 
>> Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.
> 
> I see...

Good.  Now continue that thinking and say to yourself "if they don't 
think I'm good enough, they're wrong.  They just don't know me well 
enough and are idiots for not taking the time to learn any better."

>> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn things. 
>> Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then it's
>> their loss.
> 
> Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the
> entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard
> to keep telling yourself that it's true.
> 
> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?

Um, you're talking to someone who does think so.  Several others here 
have said so.  But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)

Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the 
words you're reading on the screen right now.

Jim

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