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Hi together,
just wanted to ask if it is planned to support OpenGL with Povray.
greetings from Germany,
Sven.
--
Sven Olensky * neTSupport, C0ding & Des!gn
Communication Engineering ***** UAPSC FuWa
------------------------------------------
Cite: "Perl: checksummed line noise with
a sense of purpose" ----- Randal Schwartz
--
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Sven Olensky wrote:
> just wanted to ask if it is planned to support OpenGL with Povray.
OpenGL support could help POVRay (contrary to popular beleif), but the
help would be so miniscule (maybe save a second on geometry processing)
that it isn't worth bothering. The reason for this is because the only
part of OpenGL that is helpfull for final rendering is that if you use
OpenGL to store your seen, and the OpenGL functions to manipulate that
scene, then if you video card support geometry acceleration (card with
the GLINT Delta chip do this, the Oxygen x02 cards do this, and the
RealiZm cards do this, I don't know of any others), then there will be a
slight speed increase. Also, POVRay may get some help from geometry
intersection. Most 3D cards offer nothing that would help POVRay, and
if the POVTeam did add OpenGL support, you would still be better off
buying a Dec Alpha with the money instead of buying a fancy OpenGL card.
Now, my understanding is that RenderGL offers some extenions to OpenGL
that could be usefull to POVRay, but I am not sure what they are
exactly. I just know that RenderGL is supposed to accelerate rendering
in 3D Studio Max R2, and Lightwave 5.5. Maybe it offers some more
generic 3D algorythems such as speeding up trig functions, or something
like that. Also it my understanding that only Intergraph cards support
RenderGL.
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Since OpenGL is a rendering accelerator, not a ray-tracing accelerator, it
is only useful for preview mode in a modeler. Pov on it's own isn't a
modeler, just a ray-tracing engine. Several of the modelers currently
available for POV already use OpenGL for preview though. Check out sPatch,
Breeze, PovSB. I think they all have OpenGL preview, and I'm sure there are
others.
Ken
Sven Olensky wrote in message <346B1B03.10279437@seitz.de>...
>Hi together,
>
>just wanted to ask if it is planned to support OpenGL with Povray.
>
>greetings from Germany,
>
>Sven.
>--
>Sven Olensky * neTSupport, C0ding & Des!gn
>Communication Engineering ***** UAPSC FuWa
>------------------------------------------
>Cite: "Perl: checksummed line noise with
>a sense of purpose" ----- Randal Schwartz
>--
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On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:47:12 -0800, "Ken Cecka" <cec### [at] televar moc>
wrote:
>Since OpenGL is a rendering accelerator, not a ray-tracing accelerator, it
>is only useful for preview mode in a modeler. Pov on it's own isn't a
>modeler, just a ray-tracing engine. Several of the modelers currently
>available for POV already use OpenGL for preview though. Check out sPatch,
>Breeze, PovSB. I think they all have OpenGL preview, and I'm sure there are
>others.
>
>Ken
But Ken,
Many people (Dan Farmer for instance, one of the best and best
known POV-Ray artists ever) don't use modellers at all (or very
little) They do in fact use POV-Ray test renders, and a bit of trial
and error, to 'model' their scenes. I would say that POV-Ray would be
all the better if it DID have an option to represent the scene via an
OpenGL preview. Then, when you get things in the correct positions
and get your CSG's etc. correct, you could switch back to a raytraced
preview so that you can see how the more complex textures are doing.
-----------
George Hunt --- Raytracer Obsessivo
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lightsword
102### [at] compuservecom
-----------
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George Hunt wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:47:12 -0800, "Ken Cecka" <cec### [at] televarmoc>
> wrote:
>
> >Since OpenGL is a rendering accelerator, not a ray-tracing accelerator, it
> >is only useful for preview mode in a modeler. Pov on it's own isn't a
> >modeler, just a ray-tracing engine. Several of the modelers currently
> >available for POV already use OpenGL for preview though. Check out sPatch,
> >Breeze, PovSB. I think they all have OpenGL preview, and I'm sure there are
> >others.
> >
> >Ken
>
> But Ken,
> Many people (Dan Farmer for instance, one of the best and best
> known POV-Ray artists ever) don't use modellers at all (or very
> little) They do in fact use POV-Ray test renders, and a bit of trial
> and error, to 'model' their scenes. I would say that POV-Ray would be
> all the better if it DID have an option to represent the scene via an
> OpenGL preview. Then, when you get things in the correct positions
> and get your CSG's etc. correct, you could switch back to a raytraced
> preview so that you can see how the more complex textures are doing.
Well, if you lower POVRays q level, then you can have a lot more speed.
Enough that OpenGL stll probably wouldn't make much difference. But you
do raise an interesting point. What of instead of doing test renders,
you could have a preview window that updated itself everytime it could
parse the source code with out errors. Meaning that whille you type it
isn't updating the preview, but when you stop you get instant feed
back. It could also support realtime texturing, so that you could see
if you had the textures possitioned correctly.
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This brings up a good questions that I've been wondering about. Does OpenGL
do realtime CSG? As far as I know, OpenGL just processes triangle meshes,
not true mathematical objects of the type pov uses. You would have to
convert your objects to meshes, crunch out the csg's on your processor, and
then send them to the card for display. That would really defeat the
purpose of pov, since it tries to avoid meshes. But I really don't know a
lot about OpenGL. Does it have built in functionality for CSG?
Ken
George Hunt wrote in message <346bf5b9.95268263@news.stmuc.com>...
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:47:12 -0800, "Ken Cecka" <cec### [at] televarmoc>
>wrote:
>
>>Since OpenGL is a rendering accelerator, not a ray-tracing accelerator, it
>>is only useful for preview mode in a modeler. Pov on it's own isn't a
>>modeler, just a ray-tracing engine. Several of the modelers currently
>>available for POV already use OpenGL for preview though. Check out
sPatch,
>>Breeze, PovSB. I think they all have OpenGL preview, and I'm sure there
are
>>others.
>>
>>Ken
>
>But Ken,
> Many people (Dan Farmer for instance, one of the best and best
>known POV-Ray artists ever) don't use modellers at all (or very
>little) They do in fact use POV-Ray test renders, and a bit of trial
>and error, to 'model' their scenes. I would say that POV-Ray would be
>all the better if it DID have an option to represent the scene via an
>OpenGL preview. Then, when you get things in the correct positions
>and get your CSG's etc. correct, you could switch back to a raytraced
>preview so that you can see how the more complex textures are doing.
>
>
>-----------
>George Hunt --- Raytracer Obsessivo
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lightsword
>102### [at] compuservecom
>-----------
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I am not an expert on OpenGL, but i belive that OpenGL renders objects by
requiring that they be tesselated into triangles. Fortunately OpenGL
supplies functions for doing this. This is what i gathered from skimming the
SDKs that i have, and it may be incorrect.
Kyle
Ken Cecka wrote in message <346c1929.0@news.povray.org>...
>This brings up a good questions that I've been wondering about. Does
OpenGL
>do realtime CSG? As far as I know, OpenGL just processes triangle meshes,
>not true mathematical objects of the type pov uses. You would have to
>convert your objects to meshes, crunch out the csg's on your processor, and
>then send them to the card for display. That would really defeat the
>purpose of pov, since it tries to avoid meshes. But I really don't know a
>lot about OpenGL. Does it have built in functionality for CSG?
>
>Ken
>...
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> Many people (Dan Farmer for instance, one of the best and best
> known POV-Ray artists ever) don't use modellers at all (or very
> little) They do in fact use POV-Ray test renders, and a bit of trial
> and error, to 'model' their scenes. I would say that POV-Ray would be
> all the better if it DID have an option to represent the scene via an
> OpenGL preview. Then, when you get things in the correct positions
> and get your CSG's etc. correct, you could switch back to a raytraced
> preview so that you can see how the more complex textures are doing.
OpenGL is designed mainly to accelerate animations - manipulating 3D
objects in real-time - and so the effect on static renders probably
wouldn't be worthwhile. If you're looking to do lower-quality previews
while developing a scene, POV-Ray has the command line switches to do
that already - I think it's +Qx where 0<=x<=9, I used to use it a lot
when running on a 486 but nowadays I use the mosaic preview for quicker
test renders.
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From: Joshua Boyd
Subject: The quality of Artist (was Re: POV & OpenGL?)
Date: 14 Nov 1997 01:52:08
Message: <346BF518.63FD@aol.com>
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George Hunt wrote:
> But Ken,
> Many people (Dan Farmer for instance, one of the best and best
> known POV-Ray artists ever) don't use modellers at all (or very
> little) They do in fact use POV-Ray test renders, and a bit of trial
> and error, to 'model' their scenes. I would say that POV-Ray would be
> all the better if it DID have an option to represent the scene via an
> OpenGL preview. Then, when you get things in the correct positions
> and get your CSG's etc. correct, you could switch back to a raytraced
> preview so that you can see how the more complex textures are doing.
Best as in how well he knew POVRay? Or best artist. I can model
complex objects in POVRay with out using a seperate modeller, but why
would I want to? It stifles creativity. I do all my texturing by hand
in POVRay, and even tweak modelels in POVRay sometimes.
When we take away limitating ourselves to POVRay, I think that we will
find that many of the best artists use a really powerfull modeller like
Rhino, Max, Lightwave, Alias, FormZ or whatever. Even if they then go
on and use a different renderer (be it POVRay, or MentalRay). Not doing
it by hand in POVRay.
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From: Eugene Lazutkin
Subject: Technical wish list (was: Re: POV & OpenGL?)
Date: 23 Dec 1997 14:13:42
Message: <34a01b25.0@news.povray.org>
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I agree with you 100%. OpenGL can help a lot when someone debugs a
geometrically complex scene (placements, geometry, sizes) when it is
not practical to use small previews. It may not help to test lights and
textures but anyway it will be _very_ useful piece of functionality.
My wish list for future versions of POV-Ray:
General: OpenGL preview and multiprocessor capabilities.
Windows-specific: (possibly) Direct3D preview, full MMX support.
Reasons: I see OpenGL and DirectX as the only reasonable way to support
platform-specific hardware- (and software-) assisted acceleration. All new
processors are MMX-capable and it is a crime not to use accelerating
facilities for computing power-hungry apps :-). Now when memory prices are
going down and Intel processors are dirt cheap, it is practical and
inexpensive
to have a dual processor computer under NT or whatever you like. There is
a number of multiprocessor UNIX computers out there. A lot of people buy
dual-processor motherboards counting on future upgrades by adding second
CPU. I believe it should be supported eventually.
Eugene
-- Eugene Lazutkin (eug### [at] ABCcarnac-graphicscom) hint: remove ABC
George Hunt wrote in message <346bf5b9.95268263@news.stmuc.com>...
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:47:12 -0800, "Ken Cecka" <cec### [at] televarmoc>
>wrote:
>
>>Since OpenGL is a rendering accelerator, not a ray-tracing accelerator, it
>>is only useful for preview mode in a modeler. Pov on it's own isn't a
>>modeler, just a ray-tracing engine. Several of the modelers currently
>>available for POV already use OpenGL for preview though. Check out
sPatch,
>>Breeze, PovSB. I think they all have OpenGL preview, and I'm sure there
are
>>others.
>>
>>Ken
>
>But Ken,
> Many people (Dan Farmer for instance, one of the best and best
>known POV-Ray artists ever) don't use modellers at all (or very
>little) They do in fact use POV-Ray test renders, and a bit of trial
>and error, to 'model' their scenes. I would say that POV-Ray would be
>all the better if it DID have an option to represent the scene via an
>OpenGL preview. Then, when you get things in the correct positions
>and get your CSG's etc. correct, you could switch back to a raytraced
>preview so that you can see how the more complex textures are doing.
>
>
>-----------
>George Hunt --- Raytracer Obsessivo
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lightsword
>102### [at] compuservecom
>-----------
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