>> ?? I thought all animals made choices? Even a single logic gate is
>> capable of making a choice.
> A logic gate know why it make a choice?

How do you want to define "knowing" why it made a choice? Because it 
can't talk to you or write to you to explain itself? How about if it 
spoke a simple message like "I chose action X because A and B were both 
positive", would that count as knowing why it made the choice?

> Human know about his choice. It
> is what I want to say.

Surely other animals know about their choices too? How about when you 
train a dog to do certain things?

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On 17/01/2014 2:19 PM, scott wrote:
>> A logic gate know why it make a choice?
>
> How do you want to define "knowing" why it made a choice?

It must be some sort of intelligent design. ;-)

> Because it
> can't talk to you or write to you to explain itself? How about if it
> spoke a simple message like "I chose action X because A and B were both
> positive", would that count as knowing why it made the choice?
>
>> Human know about his choice. It
>> is what I want to say.
>
> Surely other animals know about their choices too? How about when you
> train a dog to do certain things?

And if they have done something wrong.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Le 17/01/2014 15:47, Stephen a écrit :
> On 17/01/2014 2:19 PM, scott wrote:
>>> A logic gate know why it make a choice?
>>
>> How do you want to define "knowing" why it made a choice?
>
> It must be some sort of intelligent design. ;-)
>
>> Because it
>> can't talk to you or write to you to explain itself? How about if it
>> spoke a simple message like "I chose action X because A and B were both
>> positive", would that count as knowing why it made the choice?
>>
A logic gate isn't intelligent, even if a message like "I chose action X 
because A and B were both positive" is emit, the gate can't explain the 
words "positive" or "A"...
Can we says the machine are intelligent?
>>> Human know about his choice. It
>>> is what I want to say.
>>
>> Surely other animals know about their choices too? How about when you
>> train a dog to do certain things?
>
> And if they have done something wrong.
>
Yes, Human know if he make wrong action, waht about animals? Good or 
evil are humans concepts, not animals, not machines.
I think humans are the only creatures able to really choose. Some 
"educated" animals can also choose, but are they able to say waht is 
good or bad?

---
Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la
protection avast! Antivirus est active.
http://www.avast.com

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On 17/01/2014 3:10 PM, FractRacer wrote:
> Le 17/01/2014 15:47, Stephen a écrit :

> A logic gate isn't intelligent, even if a message like "I chose action X
> because A and B were both positive" is emit, the gate can't explain the
> words "positive" or "A"...
> Can we says the machine are intelligent?

Again, what do we mean by intelligence? I cannot answer until I know 
what you understand the meaning is.
And then we would probably argue over if for so long. We would have 
forgotten what the question was. :-)

>>>> Human know about his choice. It
>>>> is what I want to say.
>>>
>>> Surely other animals know about their choices too? How about when you
>>> train a dog to do certain things?
>>
>> And if they have done something wrong.
>>
> Yes, Human know if he make wrong action, waht about animals? Good or
> evil are humans concepts, not animals, not machines.
> I think humans are the only creatures able to really choose. Some
> "educated" animals can also choose, but are they able to say waht is
> good or bad?
>

It was animals I was talking about. I was thinking about dogs in particular.



-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 17/01/2014 3:30 PM, Stephen wrote:
>> Can we says the machine are intelligent?
>
> Again, what do we mean by intelligence?

To give you a quick answer. No, not at the moment.
But that is not to say that they never will be. IMO

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> A logic gate isn't intelligent, even if a message like "I chose action X
> because A and B were both positive" is emit, the gate can't explain the
> words "positive" or "A"...

With a few more logic gates it could look up the definition on wikipedia 
and read it out to you. An animal can't explain any words though. Which 
is more intelligent?

> I think humans are the only creatures able to really choose.

Your brain gets inputs and stores them, and then when it is required to 
make a decision it utilises the past inputs to make a decision. If that 
process can be called "choosing", then it seems to me like other animals 
and machines can also "choose". What's the difference?

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Am 17.01.2014 09:31, schrieb Le_Forgeron:

> Human: probably the only living animal that can kill without the
> need/justfication to eat its prey. Contamination to nearby animals, like
> dogs, has been observed on specific individuals.

That's actually nonsense, arising from some kind of "inverse 
human-centric" mindset. Some examples:

When male lions defeat others to take over their harem, they tend to try 
and kill any cubs the females are currently raising. (This seems to be a 
common trend in other felines as well, except that males only rarely 
come across cubs.)

During the "salmon season", Bears are know to kill many more salmons 
than they can possibly eat, devouring only the most tasty parts and 
leaving the rest of the cadavers to rot.

Orcas have been observed in what appear to be "killing games" with seals.

In plenty of species, rival males sometimes fight to the death.

In some spider species, females tend to kill the male they mate with.


(Not to mention the countless species that, when aggravated, will try to 
kill whatever they deem a threat to their young.)


I suspect the list could be continued with plenty more examples if we 
only dared to look more carefully at the habits of other creatures.

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Am 17.01.2014 16:10, schrieb FractRacer:

> Yes, Human know if he make wrong action, waht about animals? Good or
> evil are humans concepts, not animals, not machines.
> I think humans are the only creatures able to really choose. Some
> "educated" animals can also choose, but are they able to say waht is
> good or bad?

Are /you/ able to say what is good or bad? If so, tell me.


Kitten do learn what is good or bad, by interacting with their siblings 
and their mother. Good := behaviour provoking positive feedback, evil := 
behaviour provoking negative feedback.

For instance, kitten learn not to play too rough because this will cause 
the siblings to abort the game.

This way, some kitten will learn to actually /be/ good, while others 
will learn to not get /caught/ when being evil.


No difference there to humans. We, too, unconsciously follow the very 
same underlying definition of good and evil, the details of which we 
have learned during childhood, in the very same manner.

Note that as a consequence there is no such thing as a universal concept 
of good and evil; each individual /inevitably/ has its own unique 
concept thereof, shaped by the family, society and culture he was 
brought up in.

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Am 17.01.2014 11:23, schrieb scott:

> I don't know much about how the old system worked in the UK, but I
> assume if you couldn't keep up or were obviously too bright you switched
> schools (eg you had a bad day or a fluke for the entry exam)? After all
> this kind of system seems to work ok in other countries (eg Germany),
> seems to me like the implementation details were just wrong here.

There are tendencies in Germany to try and get rid of that system. Not 
sure I approve of that.

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On 17/01/2014 10:23 AM, scott wrote:
>>> Not if the separation was a totally different school rather than just
>>> different classes.
>>
>> Didn't the UK try that already? Didn't that lead to a generation of
>> people being labelled according to which type of school they got sent
>> to, rather than anything they actually achieved while there?
>
> And how is that any different than the labelling of people today based
> on which university they went to rather than what they actually
> achieved? And what is the problem with that (assuming they passed the
> course)?

I don't know, man. I thought a degree is pretty much a degree; nobody 
seems to care much where you got it. (Unless it was somewhere really 
famous like Oxford or Cambridge. But that's because almost nobody goes 
there...)

By the time you reach adulthood, you have presumably given up on calling 
people names because they're "teacher's pet". Question is, how do we get 
younger children to do that...

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