On 25/09/2012 08:34 PM, andrel wrote:
> Well, I know quite a few professional singers. And I am not talking
> about pop musicians but trained, talented people. What you describe is
> entirely possible without AutoTune, but not with people like madonna, no
> matter what other qualities she has.

Well, listening to the likes of Dion, The Darts or Mud suggests that 
these people were not able to sing with such immaculate perfection. The 
songs I'm listening to sound just a little "too perfect" - like the sort 
of thing a machine would produce.

I'm not completely /sure/, however.

> But as you don't tell us what CDs you are talking about no meaningful
> comment is possible.

You may listen in crappy clipped and compressed quality here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA3LFd8g9bY

The lead singer sounds "real" enough, but those backing vocals sound 
just a bit too perfect to me...

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On 25-9-2012 22:18, Warp wrote:
> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> Well, I know quite a few professional singers. And I am not talking
>> about pop musicians but trained, talented people. What you describe is
>> entirely possible without AutoTune, but not with people like madonna, no
>> matter what other qualities she has.
>
> Why not?
>
because she started too late taking singing lessons and was too busy 
with her career to spend enough time on it.

-- 
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low

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On 25-9-2012 22:27, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 25/09/2012 08:34 PM, andrel wrote:
>> Well, I know quite a few professional singers. And I am not talking
>> about pop musicians but trained, talented people. What you describe is
>> entirely possible without AutoTune, but not with people like madonna, no
>> matter what other qualities she has.
>
> Well, listening to the likes of Dion, The Darts or Mud suggests that
> these people were not able to sing with such immaculate perfection. The
> songs I'm listening to sound just a little "too perfect" - like the sort
> of thing a machine would produce.
>
> I'm not completely /sure/, however.
>
>> But as you don't tell us what CDs you are talking about no meaningful
>> comment is possible.
>
> You may listen in crappy clipped and compressed quality here:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA3LFd8g9bY
>
> The lead singer sounds "real" enough, but those backing vocals sound
> just a bit too perfect to me...

I don't think so. I didn't know but apparently the equivalent of 'that 
looks shopped' is I can see from the pixels' for audio is 'that sounds 
AutoTuned, I can hear from the spectrum'.

-- 
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> On 25-9-2012 22:18, Warp wrote:
> > andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> >> Well, I know quite a few professional singers. And I am not talking
> >> about pop musicians but trained, talented people. What you describe is
> >> entirely possible without AutoTune, but not with people like madonna, no
> >> matter what other qualities she has.
> >
> > Why not?
> >
> because she started too late taking singing lessons and was too busy 
> with her career to spend enough time on it.

Madonna made her first hit songs in the early 80's. Autotune was first
released in 1997. I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> I don't think so. I didn't know but apparently the equivalent of 'that 
> looks shopped' is I can see from the pixels' for audio is 'that sounds 
> AutoTuned, I can hear from the spectrum'.

I don't know the exact algorithm for autotuning, but it wouldn't surprise
me if it didn't leave some characteristic revealing marks or patterns in
the sound that could be analyzed to see if it has been autotuned. (After
all, pitch correction while retaining the correct timing requires more
than just playing the sample faster or slower.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Le 26/09/2012 01:53, Warp nous fit lire :
> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>> because she started too late taking singing lessons and was too busy 
>> with her career to spend enough time on it.
> 
> Madonna made her first hit songs in the early 80's. Autotune was first
> released in 1997. I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about.
> 
it was not for her singing talent alone. It was a different time and a
different musical industry.
Madonna was first part of the dancers of Patrick Hernandez (1979).

At least, at that time, songs & shows had some messages in them, even if
faint. And these messages were assumed by the artists.

Nowadays, it's a totally different business.

Best illustrated with the Star Wars movies.
The only original trilogy allows identification with the hero (a young
man discovers the world and love, outside of his nest, bad guys turn out
to be not so bad, and all that with some stunning effects for the time,
and a romance between three too).
The last perpetration is just about cashing money on filming a story.
No reflection, no message, just entertainment.

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> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> On 25-9-2012 22:18, Warp wrote:
>>> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>>>> Well, I know quite a few professional singers. And I am not talking
>>>> about pop musicians but trained, talented people. What you describe is
>>>> entirely possible without AutoTune, but not with people like madonna, no
>>>> matter what other qualities she has.
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>>
>> because she started too late taking singing lessons and was too busy
>> with her career to spend enough time on it.
>
> Madonna made her first hit songs in the early 80's. Autotune was first
> released in 1997. I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about.
>

If you listen to her earlier balads ("Live to tell", for example), you 
can tell that when she's trying to sing "seriously" (as opposed to the 
"girly" stuff like "Material girl" or "Like a virgin") she sometimes 
misses notes and her voice cracks up.

Compare that to "Frozen", where you won't hear any of those mistakes.

I also think the absence of mistakes is the result of technology rather 
than singing lessons.
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> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> I don't think so. I didn't know but apparently the equivalent of 'that
>> looks shopped' is I can see from the pixels' for audio is 'that sounds
>> AutoTuned, I can hear from the spectrum'.
>
> I don't know the exact algorithm for autotuning, but it wouldn't surprise
> me if it didn't leave some characteristic revealing marks or patterns in
> the sound that could be analyzed to see if it has been autotuned. (After
> all, pitch correction while retaining the correct timing requires more
> than just playing the sample faster or slower.)
>

It depends on the amount of autotuning required.  If you only correct a 
musician that's off by half a tone, it will probably be very difficult 
to find, but it really sounds metallic when it's overdone (e.g.: those 
"autotune the news" Youtube videos.

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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Francois Labreque <fla### [at] videotronca> wrote:
> It depends on the amount of autotuning required.  If you only correct a 
> musician that's off by half a tone, it will probably be very difficult 
> to find, but it really sounds metallic when it's overdone (e.g.: those 
> "autotune the news" Youtube videos.

But that's exactly what I was thinking about. Even if there's only a little
bit of autotuning, it ought to leave traces of that "metallic" sound that
could be algorithmically analyzed (even if the human ear doesn't discern
them because they are inundated by all the other sounds).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 26-9-2012 1:53, Warp wrote:
> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> On 25-9-2012 22:18, Warp wrote:
>>> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>>>> Well, I know quite a few professional singers. And I am not talking
>>>> about pop musicians but trained, talented people. What you describe is
>>>> entirely possible without AutoTune, but not with people like madonna, no
>>>> matter what other qualities she has.
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>>
>> because she started too late taking singing lessons and was too busy
>> with her career to spend enough time on it.
>
> Madonna made her first hit songs in the early 80's. Autotune was first
> released in 1997. I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about.

About her singing skills, without AutoTune. Like a virgin was a catchy 
tune and for the time an eye catching video, but I was not impressed by 
her vocal skills, to put it mildly.

-- 
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low

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