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Warp escreveu:
> Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
>> Oh, agreed in all ways. It's not like we're comparing the Wii or something.
>
> It's curious that technically the Wii is like 10 years old, yet if you
> look at the sales, it surpasses the Xbox 360 and the PS3 combined. By a
> large margin.
Unless you're considering sales only in one particular region. Global
sales for 360 and PS3 combined are higher than for Wii. Which is a good
thing as far as true gaming is concerned.
Wii didn't target gamers who are into this media for ages. They tried
to bring a new audience into the media, by offering a new largely
buttonless control experience. Unfortunately, the people playing Wii
are more acurately described as the people playing Wii Sports and a few
other casual games -- besides the die-hard loyal Nintendo fanboys. Part
of this audience is now buying Kinect instead.
But Wii was just the begining into bringing down the industry to more
primitive and cheaper gameplaying experience. Just look at Apple and
the 99 cents one-shot games proclaiming the death of Nintendo and even
consoles...
I for one had my fair share of primitive (but far more challenging)
gameplay in the 80's. They are all the rage again now, except with no
challenge and much arrogance...
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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scott escreveu:
>> I just noticed that things on the PS3 seem less ... shiney. :-) Like,
>> there's much more detail in batman's cape on the xbox than the ps3, from
>> what I can notice without having them physically side-by-side. Maybe the
>> dev tools for that sort of thing are easier on the xbox, so more work
>> goes into making it prettier. Or it might just be my imagination. :-)
>
> I haven't played on the xbox360 very often (I don't own one) but my
> impression is games on the PS3 use motion-blur and depth-of-field
> approximation effects more.
hmm, there's DOF in Assassin's Creed whenever you target someone. Is
there none in 360?
> Maybe the devs are just trying to find ways
> to use up the spare CPU cores, but often it makes the game look quite
> bad in still shots, when you can see that they are just faking the effects.
Most new effects in this generation only make them justice in motion.
Normal and spec maps are wonderful, but in shots they just look like
more texture. You don't see lighting dynamically changing them. DOF
and motion blur much the same.
> Mind you, apart from the shadows (why use low resolution shadow map
> textures in such a polished game??), Gran Turismo 5 is beautiful.
Shadow maps are another incredible effect, allowing for much shadowing
on characters and even self-shadowing. They are lowrez after all, but
still impressive.
It's amazing how we've gone from blocky characters with almost no
texturing besides goraud shading and circular ground shadows in the
first generation of 3D hardware, to fine textured models with all
fingers and shadow projections in the environments in the second
generation to fully detailed models with fine details provided by
normal/spec maps and self-shadowing and environment shadows casted upon
them nowadays. It's a marvel to behold. Guess nextgen high quality AA,
motion blur, hirez shadow maps, HDR lighting, screen space AO, screen
space Subsurface scattering and real-time tesselation will pretty much
provide Pixar-level excellence in 60 frames per second...
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On 4/1/2011 11:22 AM, nemesis wrote:
>
> Shadow maps are another incredible effect, allowing for much shadowing
> on characters and even self-shadowing. They are lowrez after all, but
> still impressive.
>
Have you ever played Splinter Cell for the 1st Xbox? Shadow maps really
gave that game justice.
> It's amazing how we've gone from blocky characters with almost no
> texturing besides goraud shading and circular ground shadows in the
> first generation of 3D hardware,
Super Mario 64 was great...
> to fine textured models with all
> fingers and shadow projections in the environments
Even the character in Driver 2 had shadows (plus a way to work your way
into any building)...
> in the second
> generation to fully detailed models with fine details provided by
> normal/spec maps and self-shadowing and environment shadows casted upon
> them nowadays. It's a marvel to behold.
It must be. I don't know whether to get a handhold emulator or the next
best Xbox... (or a Wii, because Mario games /rock/)
> Guess nextgen high quality AA,
> motion blur, hirez shadow maps, HDR lighting, screen space AO, screen
> space Subsurface scattering and real-time tesselation will pretty much
> provide Pixar-level excellence in 60 frames per second...
Ah, someday realistic 3D rendering will merge completely and
unequivocally with gaming technology. Hopefully those cards will be
optimized for raytracing. Can you imagine making a game with POV? (I
can, but the SDL needs some work :) )
____________
Now Playing:
Clonk Rage
Also Playing:
Landslide, Smashing Pumpkins
irony: 100%
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Le_Forgeron <lef### [at] freefr> wrote:
> > scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> >>>> Why should loading the scenery from disc slow down the game?
> >>>
> >>> Odd question. Because the disc is really, really slow?
> >
> >> The CPU and GPU can carry on working whilst a file is loading, you don't
> >> have to block everything whilst the file loads (thankfully!).
> >
> > It's hard to work on something that has not been loaded.
> >
> Right.
> But you can usually split the scenery in areas. You only need the
> current area and its neighbour in memory.
Which is exactly where more RAM helps a lot: You can have more detailed
models and higher-resolution textures (and other types of bitmaps) for
larger visiblity distances, and overall have a larger "buffer" for the
scenery, allowing for less visible changes in LOD levels.
I don't even understand why we are having this conversation. What I'm
saying should be patently obvious. The counterargument makes it sound like
one doesn't need RAM at all to draw a 3D scene in real-time.
--
- Warp
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On 4/1/2011 11:22, nemesis wrote:
> hmm, there's DOF in Assassin's Creed whenever you target someone. Is there
> none in 360?
One of the neat effects in the XBox version of the Batman game is when
you're choking the crap out of someone, everything not close goes all
blurry. So, yeah, they're managing it somehow.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Coding without comments is like
driving without turn signals."
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stbenge <"egnebts <-inverted"@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/1/2011 11:22 AM, nemesis wrote:
> >
> > Shadow maps are another incredible effect, allowing for much shadowing
> > on characters and even self-shadowing. They are lowrez after all, but
> > still impressive.
> >
>
> Have you ever played Splinter Cell for the 1st Xbox? Shadow maps really
> gave that game justice.
yeah, the original XBox was definitely ahead of both PS2 and GC.
> > It's amazing how we've gone from blocky characters with almost no
> > texturing besides goraud shading and circular ground shadows in the
> > first generation of 3D hardware,
>
> Super Mario 64 was great...
it indeed was. Magical at the time.
> > in the second
> > generation to fully detailed models with fine details provided by
> > normal/spec maps and self-shadowing and environment shadows casted upon
> > them nowadays. It's a marvel to behold.
>
> It must be. I don't know whether to get a handhold emulator or the next
> best Xbox... (or a Wii, because Mario games /rock/)
the Wii is a GC under different plastic box. It's got none of the hardware
prowess of 360 and PS3 whatsoever. You'll be playing games with same graphics
of past 10 years. Mario Galaxy is awesome, but I can't have my gaming fix on
just Mario and Link alone. Even Samus Aran should have ended her career in
Super Metroid or the first Metroid Prime...
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On 4/2/2011 9:54 PM, nemesis wrote:
> stbenge<"egnebts<-inverted"@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/1/2011 11:22 AM, nemesis wrote:
>>> in the second
>>> generation to fully detailed models with fine details provided by
>>> normal/spec maps and self-shadowing and environment shadows casted upon
>>> them nowadays. It's a marvel to behold.
>>
>> It must be. I don't know whether to get a handhold emulator or the next
>> best Xbox... (or a Wii, because Mario games /rock/)
>
> the Wii is a GC under different plastic box. It's got none of the hardware
> prowess of 360 and PS3 whatsoever. You'll be playing games with same graphics
> of past 10 years.
Gah! Nintendo might as well be selling exercise videos :(
> Mario Galaxy is awesome,
I'd love to play that one. Just 48 hours of caffeine-fueled
uninterrupted game time...
> but I can't have my gaming fix on
> just Mario and Link alone.
What is up with those guys anyway? Always having to save the princess.
Peach breaks a nail, "help me Mario!" Zelda sees a pig, "the Moblins are
attacking the castle!" Get a grip, Zelda! Or better yet, pick up a power
glove once in a while, sheesh!
> Even Samus Aran should have ended her career in
> Super Metroid or the first Metroid Prime...
Aw, c'mon! Another (2D) Metroid game made well would be great! I thought
of a great prequel entitled, "The Last Chozo," where of course, you'd
play as a Chozo. There would be some storyline about how you were the
last one, Metroids along with space pirates invaded your home world,
blah, blah, blah... the Metroid games were more about action anyway ;)
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> Which is exactly where more RAM helps a lot: You can have more detailed
> models and higher-resolution textures (and other types of bitmaps) for
> larger visiblity distances, and overall have a larger "buffer" for the
> scenery, allowing for less visible changes in LOD levels.
If you need to send data to the GPU faster than a hard disc can supply
then you're going to have far more serious problems with your game
design. And even if you do manage somehow to get good performance with
loading that much data, your CPU RAM is going to run out in a matter of
seconds (unless you have some carefully constructed repeated pattern of
textures/meshes that are swapped in and out every second or so). I
can't think of a realistic situation where it is absolutely necessary to
have a large amount of CPU RAM to achieve some effect.
> The counterargument makes it sound like
> one doesn't need RAM at all to draw a 3D scene in real-time.
Just to clarify we're talking about CPU RAM here, not RAM in general.
It's completely possible to write a program on a PC that fills the GPU
RAM with complex meshes and textures, then releases nearly all CPU RAM
(apart from needed pointers and space for the CPU code itself). It will
still work and be able to draw the scene in real-time, CPU RAM usage
will be minimal.
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stbenge escreveu:
>> but I can't have my gaming fix on
>> just Mario and Link alone.
>
> What is up with those guys anyway? Always having to save the princess.
> Peach breaks a nail, "help me Mario!" Zelda sees a pig, "the Moblins are
> attacking the castle!" Get a grip, Zelda! Or better yet, pick up a power
> glove once in a while, sheesh!
I'll probably still get Zelda: Skyward Sword by end of the year for Wii.
Wii's swann's song, no doubt. And perhaps even happens like TP:
launched for both GC and Wii.
Motion control games so far have only been used for simplistic sports
mini-games collections, fun for a while but ultimately too shallow and
repetitive. Z:SS OTOH will deliver 1:1 sword playing, shield defensing,
arch&bow, canoeing and more all in one top adventure game. The Wii was
built for games like this, but hardly delivered...
>> Even Samus Aran should have ended her career in
>> Super Metroid or the first Metroid Prime...
>
> Aw, c'mon! Another (2D) Metroid game made well would be great! I thought
> of a great prequel entitled, "The Last Chozo," where of course, you'd
> play as a Chozo. There would be some storyline about how you were the
> last one, Metroids along with space pirates invaded your home world,
> blah, blah, blah... the Metroid games were more about action anyway ;)
There's always the mobile versions, of course. Fusion on GBA had better
controls than SM, but still not quite the feeling of SM. There's also
Metroid Zero, which is basically Metroid 1 revamped with 16-bit
graphics. Many great side-scrollers found much better home in the
Nintendo handhelds, including the awesome series of Metroidvanias from
Konami since Castlevania:SotN.
I was talking specifically of Metroid:Other M for Wii. Not quite so good.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> > The counterargument makes it sound like
> > one doesn't need RAM at all to draw a 3D scene in real-time.
> Just to clarify we're talking about CPU RAM here, not RAM in general.
> It's completely possible to write a program on a PC that fills the GPU
> RAM with complex meshes and textures, then releases nearly all CPU RAM
> (apart from needed pointers and space for the CPU code itself). It will
> still work and be able to draw the scene in real-time, CPU RAM usage
> will be minimal.
I am talking about the Xbox 360 with its shared RAM (the same RAM is used
by the CPU and the GPU), and how 512 MB is a puny amount.
Consider it in the other direction: Imagine that the amount of RAM would
be 128 MB instead. Would games still look as good as they do? If not, why
not?
Now consider 2 GB vs 512 MB. Exact same thing.
--
- Warp
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