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25 Jul 2021 15:27:33 EDT (-0400)
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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 12 May 2021 07:58:18
Message: <609bc2da@news.povray.org>
Op 12-5-2021 om 13:17 schreef Bald Eagle:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> 
>> This installation info was given by Clipka in
>> https://github.com/POV-Ray/povray/releases/tag/v3.8.0-alpha.10064268
> 
> Yes, I recall that, as well as the discussion about renaming the .chm help file.
> 
>> However, in Windows, I use a more 'intuitive' way
> 
> Here, I think is where a screenshot or other graphic output of the directory
> tree structure would be really nice for the documentation.
> 
> 
>> But maybe this is common knowledge? I don't know.
> 
> I've learned to make as close to zero assumptions about "common knowledge" as
> possible, especially when doing instructional or documentation work.
> 
Absolutely right! I make amends ;-) Please find two screenshots of  the 
tree structure. Let me know if you need anything else.

> What was common knowledge in the 14th century as opposed to now?
> The use of slide rules was "common knowledge" for 200+ years - and then *POOF*
> we collectively forgot.
> [snip] >
> So I'm gonna try to write as much of it down as I can this time in one place and
> make a PDF of it, and maybe most of it can wind up on the download page - which
> can be the download and install page.  ;)
> 
Very true what you write. I was afraid of stating the 'obvious' that 
"everybody knows /that/, stupid!" :-)

-- 
Thomas


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From: jr
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 12 May 2021 09:25:00
Message: <web.609bd6312344a9a179819d986cde94f1@news.povray.org>
hi,

"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> ...
> So, in an effort to work out a fairly robust process for folks new to linux, and
> unfamiliar with all of "the usual" ways of doing things that are just left as
> "we assumed that you already know how to do all of this..." (no) I'm going to
> use this thread to document installation of official POV-Ray, perhaps by several
> methods, version 3.8 alpha, and hopefully povr and hgpovray38 as well.

no one mentioned using/creating a (shell, etc) script to build yet, I think, so
that'd be my advice.


regards, jr.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 06:59:46
Message: <609d06a2$1@news.povray.org>
On 5/12/21 9:20 AM, jr wrote:
> hi,
> 
> "Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
>> ...
>> So, in an effort to work out a fairly robust process for folks new to linux, and
>> unfamiliar with all of "the usual" ways of doing things that are just left as
>> "we assumed that you already know how to do all of this..." (no) I'm going to
>> use this thread to document installation of official POV-Ray, perhaps by several
>> methods, version 3.8 alpha, and hopefully povr and hgpovray38 as well.
> 
> no one mentioned using/creating a (shell, etc) script to build yet, I think, so
> that'd be my advice.
> 

A good idea. On linux based systems a script could take a quick look at 
whether the right packages dependencies were installed in a way more 
friendly than the configure script. Suppose a concern is it would itself 
be an abnormal way to do things for more experienced linux/unix users. 
Well, thinking a bit, the prebuild.sh stuff is too with most POV-Ray 
sources. ;-)

--- Something for the future, perhaps.
Aside: I've been thinking too on linux we should move away from setting 
up default system install directories. Most linux users should install 
from existing packages, not compile and install. Further, our 'default' 
build system should not by default, try to overwrite such provided 
packages on a 'make install.'

I've been toying with the default install directory for linux/unix being 
/dev/null in fact. (/dev/null being a 'bit bucket / null disk')

With the 'core' approach and a 'povr' wrapper script you can run in 
place after a compile or with an install. When a user installs, it 
should normally be to a local user directory and not a system wide one.

Bill P.


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From: Bald Eagle
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 07:30:00
Message: <web.609d0d4f2344a9a11f9dae3025979125@news.povray.org>
William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:

> Most linux users should install
> from existing packages, not compile and install.

Perhaps you or someone else could expand / clarify.

> Further, our 'default'
> build system should not by default, try to overwrite such provided
> packages on a 'make install.'

Yes, I would especially like an installation to be able to preserve things like
the insert menu and inc files, or at least make directories off to the side
specifically labeled for user-created stuff, so they don't get overwritten on
re-install / update of new version.

The clearer it is about how to do thing on 'nix, the easier it will be for
people wanting to transition away from certain other O$'s to do so.


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From: jr
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 07:55:00
Message: <web.609d12b12344a9a179819d986cde94f1@news.povray.org>
hi,

William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> On 5/12/21 9:20 AM, jr wrote:
> > "Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> >> ...
> >> So, in an effort to work out a fairly robust process for folks new to linux, and
> >> unfamiliar with all of "the usual" ways of doing things that are just left as
> >> "we assumed that you already know how to do all of this..." (no) I'm going to
> >> use this thread to document installation of official POV-Ray, perhaps by several
> >> methods, version 3.8 alpha, and hopefully povr and hgpovray38 as well.
> >
> > no one mentioned using/creating a (shell, etc) script to build yet, I think, so
> > that'd be my advice.
> >
>
> A good idea. On linux based systems a script could take a quick look at
> whether the right packages dependencies were installed in a way more
> friendly than the configure script. Suppose a concern is it would itself
> be an abnormal way to do things for more experienced linux/unix users.
> Well, thinking a bit, the prebuild.sh stuff is too with most POV-Ray
> sources. ;-)

:-)  I've been thinking that 'povr' ought to provide a dummy 'prebuild.sh'.
that would allow a single "template" to work for all (afaik, except qtpovray)
variants.


> --- Something for the future, perhaps.
> Aside: I've been thinking too on linux we should move away from setting
> up default system install directories. Most linux users should install
> from existing packages, not compile and install. Further, our 'default'
> build system should not by default, try to overwrite such provided
> packages on a 'make install.'

what is the point, except more .. outgrowths.

is this a Debian/Ubuntu thing?  you know, like people who say "PIN number"
instead of just "PIN".  example.  manual pages don't really have a purpose
unless shared by users.  so what is the gain, say, from moving '/usr/man/' to
'/usr/share/man/'?


> I've been toying with the default install directory for linux/unix being
> /dev/null in fact. (/dev/null being a 'bit bucket / null disk')

this leaves me .. scratching my head.


> With the 'core' approach and a 'povr' wrapper script you can run in
> place after a compile or with an install. When a user installs, it
> should normally be to a local user directory and not a system wide one.

right.  but which ever location the user chooses, by supporting DESTDIR it's not
your problem.


while on 'povr'.  I really thought the bottom right sphere of most recent post v
interesting, a real nice depth effect.  can you please supply a simple scene, or
at least a complete texture?  (thanks)


regards, jr.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 08:39:14
Message: <609d1df2$1@news.povray.org>
On 5/13/21 7:51 AM, jr wrote:
>> --- Something for the future, perhaps.
>> Aside: I've been thinking too on linux we should move away from setting
>> up default system install directories. Most linux users should install
>> from existing packages, not compile and install. Further, our 'default'
>> build system should not by default, try to overwrite such provided
>> packages on a 'make install.'
> what is the point, except more .. outgrowths.
> 
> is this a Debian/Ubuntu thing?  you know, like people who say "PIN number"
> instead of just "PIN".  example.  manual pages don't really have a purpose
> unless shared by users.  so what is the gain, say, from moving '/usr/man/' to
> '/usr/share/man/'?
> 
> 
>> I've been toying with the default install directory for linux/unix being
>> /dev/null in fact. (/dev/null being a 'bit bucket / null disk')
> this leaves me .. scratching my head.
> 

My current thinking/leanings come from often compiling versions which 
are not in fact complete matches for the provided linux distribution 
package POV-Ray directories or what gets installed if you compile the 
most recent github versions and install in the common directories.

The fact a 'user' compiled version of POV-Ray is still looking at a 
default install directories when those directories have include files 
and such not a match for the compiled version can lead to very confusing 
behavior. This is an exposure any time, on any OS when the compiled 
executable is 'different' than that commonly 'installed.'

If I set the install directory, via --prefix=, during configuration to
/dev/null, I never pick up something I really didn't want for whatever 
local version of POV-Ray I'm toying with(1). I can't - there is never 
anything in a /dev/null null directory to accidentally pick up.

(1) - It's how I've been running lately after too many times getting 
myself tangled up because I wasn't getting the dependency I expected to get.

> 
>> With the 'core' approach and a 'povr' wrapper script you can run in
>> place after a compile or with an install. When a user installs, it
>> should normally be to a local user directory and not a system wide one.
> right.  but which ever location the user chooses, by supporting DESTDIR it's not
> your problem.
> 
> 
> while on 'povr'.  I really thought the bottom right sphere of most recent post v
> interesting, a real nice depth effect.  can you please supply a simple scene, or
> at least a complete texture?  (thanks)

Effect is all from the perturbed normal. Let me see if I can find it.

// This a povr branch only example!
#declare Sph00 = sphere { 0, 0.8 }
#declare Grey70 = srgb <0.7,0.7,0.7>;
#declare Pig00 = pigment { color Grey70 }
#declare Nrml00 = normal {
     average
     normal_map {
         [0 bevy type 1 bump_size 0.5] // unbiased wrinkles alt
         [1 bevy type 4 bump_size 0.5] // Lean already wrinkled at +y
     }
}
#declare Fnsh00 = finish { phong 0.5 phong_size 40 }
#declare Txtr00 = texture {
     pigment { Pig00 }
     finish { Fnsh00 }
     normal { Nrml00 }
}
#declare Obj00 = object {
     Sph00
     texture { Txtr00 }
}

In playing more with normals, I'm starting to believe we've not 
exploited the mechanism anywhere near as fully as is possible.

Bill P.


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From: jr
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 09:50:00
Message: <web.609d2cee2344a9a179819d986cde94f1@news.povray.org>
hi,

William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> ...
> >> I've been toying with the default install directory for linux/unix being
> >> /dev/null in fact. (/dev/null being a 'bit bucket / null disk')
> > this leaves me .. scratching my head.
>
> My current thinking/leanings come from often compiling versions which
> are not in fact complete matches for the provided linux distribution
> package POV-Ray directories or what gets installed if you compile the
> most recent github versions and install in the common directories.
>
> The fact a 'user' compiled version of POV-Ray is still looking at a
> default install directories when those directories have include files
> and such not a match for the compiled version can lead to very confusing
> behavior. This is an exposure any time, on any OS when the compiled
> executable is 'different' than that commonly 'installed.'

perhaps time for a "clean break"?  POV-Ray/povr packaged as an installable
library, shipped with version specific stuff, scenes, and documentation.  then
you can shift all those considerations/concerns into the front-end(s).


> If I set the install directory, via --prefix=, during configuration to
> /dev/null, I never pick up something I really didn't want for whatever
> local version of POV-Ray I'm toying with(1). I can't - there is never
> anything in a /dev/null null directory to accidentally pick up.
>
> (1) - It's how I've been running lately after too many times getting
> myself tangled up because I wasn't getting the dependency I expected to get.

sure, "via --prefix" no problem.  that, and its brethren (data, doc, etc dirs),
if supported by your autotools code, is all that's required.  you may see 'povr'
as installed for a single user, but it _can_ also be installed for all.


> >> With the 'core' approach and a 'povr' wrapper script you can run in
> >> place after a compile or with an install. When a user installs, it
> >> should normally be to a local user directory and not a system wide one.
> > right.  but which ever location the user chooses, by supporting DESTDIR it's not
> > your problem.


> > ... a complete texture?  (thanks)
>
> Effect is all from the perturbed normal. Let me see if I can find it.
>
> // This a povr branch only example!
> #declare Sph00 = sphere { 0, 0.8 }
> #declare Grey70 = srgb <0.7,0.7,0.7>;
> #declare Pig00 = pigment { color Grey70 }
> #declare Nrml00 = normal {
>      average
>      normal_map {
>          [0 bevy type 1 bump_size 0.5] // unbiased wrinkles alt
>          [1 bevy type 4 bump_size 0.5] // Lean already wrinkled at +y
>      }
> }
> #declare Fnsh00 = finish { phong 0.5 phong_size 40 }
> #declare Txtr00 = texture {
>      pigment { Pig00 }
>      finish { Fnsh00 }
>      normal { Nrml00 }
> }
> #declare Obj00 = object {
>      Sph00
>      texture { Txtr00 }
> }

great, thanks.  (something for the evening :-))

> In playing more with normals, I'm starting to believe we've not
> exploited the mechanism anywhere near as fully as is possible.

if the sphere is "only the beginning", oh boy..  yes, more, please.


regards, jr.


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From: ingo
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 09:53:34
Message: <XnsAD29A1A6AC568seed7@news.povray.org>
in news:web.609bd6312344a9a179819d986cde94f1@news.povray.org jr wrote:

> no one mentioned using/creating a (shell, etc) script to build yet, I
> think, so that'd be my advice.
> 

i.i.r.c. that's kind of what I did the last time I compiled POV-Ray on 
FreeBSD. Take their standard compile and install script and point it to a 
patched version of POV-Ray.

Ingo


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From: jr
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 11:35:00
Message: <web.609d460f2344a9a179819d986cde94f1@news.povray.org>
hi,

ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> ...
> i.i.r.c. that's kind of what I did the last time I compiled POV-Ray on
> FreeBSD. Take their standard compile and install script and point it to a
> patched version of POV-Ray.

:-)  same here.  took the slackbuilds.org script and "made it my own".


regards, jr.


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From: Mr
Subject: Re: POV-Ray Installation thread
Date: 13 May 2021 11:40:00
Message: <web.609d476a2344a9a116086ed03f378f2@news.povray.org>
"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> I have a fairly new laptop that I'm setting up and sorting out, and at some
> point I became aware that there is really precious little clear, methodical,
> detailed information on how to install povray on a linux system, that is right
> here on the POV-Ray website.
>
> So, in an effort to work out a fairly robust process for folks new to linux, and
> unfamiliar with all of "the usual" ways of doing things that are just left as
> "we assumed that you already know how to do all of this..." (no) I'm going to
> use this thread to document installation of official POV-Ray, perhaps by several
> methods, version 3.8 alpha, and hopefully povr and hgpovray38 as well.



Please consider the final format to suit addition or corrections to the
following page if you haven't already. Is that okay?
https://wiki.povray.org/content/HowTo:Install_POV

If collectively, and more importantly tried by real users and validated on a per
distribution basis.

Anyone can write to discussion tab of that same page, just sign with your
nickname at the bottom of suggestions for more clarity of the exchange. Thanks
for this initiative among so many  !  :-)


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