Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:

> Ah! yes. Economy of means.



> That is true.  Firstly because the manual
> element is removed and then also because the paradigm is of replication
> through model building. If you leave detail out of the model it doesn't
> seem like a "suggestion" to the viewer, it just seems like a crude
> model.  The exceptions make for an interesting side discussion though*.
>     I think one place these concepts come into play is in texturing and
> expecially with texturing * resolution.  The pixel plays a role in
> whether the texture can suggested, or handled more explicitly.  Also I
> suppose, in how much detail is necessary in a model.


Yes and lighting. For a series of images I made a while ago. I used a high
ambient, no shadows and flat lighting to give an unrealistic or cartoon
effect.

>
> *Just to get it said, in mesh modelling there is a strong tendency to
> economy of means, further bolstered by the psuedo-pragmatic ideal of
> models animating well.  And notice that in mesh modelling the manual
> role is restored to a degree.

Yes as much as in CSG I would think. What is wrong with using as little as
you can get away with?



Those changes to your chalice are spot on, BTW. All you need now is some
wine and wafers :-)

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Stephen wrote:
> Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:



It is a pragmatic ideal because "light" meshes can be rendered faster in 
games and in full movie animations also consume less resources.  Also 
less complexity allows for easier morphing at joints and in the faces.

It is psuedo-pragmatic when the ideal is extended beyond its usefulness.

It is not a problem really, but growing up I always felt stifled by the 
level of pragmatism which I experienced as "provincial."  So I am wary 
of runaway Calvinism. It's a personal thing.

Btw, in the late stages of my painting "career" when I had reached a 
fair level of facility with my shoe paintings, I typically used cheap, 
crude, loose-haired 1/2" -> 1-1/2" cutters.*  I only used a small 
artist's brush to put in a few details on the shoe such as the line of 
the sole, and maybe the laces and their eyelets.

*Actually, here they are!
http://tinyurl.com/ntlvc

I LOVED those brushes.  As a general rule I love humble things.  But not 
when it's used as a moral stricture.

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St. wrote:
> 
>    Superb Jim! Great work there.
> 
>  
Thanks Buddy.

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"Jaime Vives Piqueres" <jai### [at] ignoranciaorg> wrote in message 
news:44310b0f$1@news.povray.org...
> upper border of the cup makes it look like it is too flat. see a little 
> the edge highlight, suggesting some thickness.

I noticed that, too, wondering if it could be the lesser clarity of the 
photo but it definitely looks like the lines there are thicker on the real 
one.

It's really fantastic now, anyhow, Jim! Could only get more perfect from 
here on, if at all possible. Before reading I had thought the second picture 
was this thing placed into a more realistic setting.

Something I couldn't stop thinking about is reflection 'exponent' and 
whether or not that might be plausible to use for the metal if you hadn't 
already done so. Maybe it would help dull the metal some by reflecting less 
of the darkness around it. Not sure if you would want to go on tweaking on 
that texture, though, since it looks pretty amazing already. Which makes me 
ask, are your render times for this reasonable (hours not days)?

-- 
Bob H  www.3digitaleyes.com
http://3digitaleyes.com/imagery/

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Thomas de Groot wrote:
> My goodness! This is the very thing now!
> Very much a Grail object (just been reading Robert Holdstock lately :-) )
> 
Thanks Thomas, I'll give Holdstock a look, I am not currently familiar. 
  Actually someone in my household took "Stonehenge" (Bernard Cornwell) 
out of the library and I read a bit yesterday, while letting others use 
the computer.  Historical fiction, but fun, and I guess it suits my mood 
somehow given I am picturing religious artifacts lately, lol.  Actually 
the whole humble-cup/ornate-relinquary concept is kinda weird when you 
think about it.

My attraction to the subject has something to do with verticality, 
ritual, vertical sequencing, decorative icon, bodily ritual, bodily 
gratification, spheres of perception.

I big influence on me, since forever, was a piece by Bruce Nauman titled
"From Hand to Mouth"  It was, as I recall, a wall sculpture which was a 
cast from a fragment of a human body showing only the hand, arm, portion 
of the neck and jaw up to the mouth, and the mouth.  Formally it 
serviced the conceptual task of the day of illustrating a verbal 
expression.  But I believe I remember that he talked about it in terms 
of hand to mouth gratifications such as smoking and drinking coffee.

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Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> Almost perfect! ...and I say "almost" only because the upper border of 
> the coup makes it look like it is too flat. In the reference photo I can 
> see a little the edge highlight, suggesting some thickness. Anyhow, that 
> was a great improvement on the metal texture: just don't touch it! Well, 
> you can tweak the color pigment, but the finish and normals seem perfect 
> like they are now.
> 
> -- 
> Jaime
Thanks Jaime. Yes, that top edge highlight is on the to do list.  As I 
am sure to realize, the present look is because the upper edge is really 
created by the isosurface's bounding box, so I'll need to bend the SOR 
in, then clip it just above with the bounding box.

I also want to get more out of the embossed lettering on the cup if 
possible.

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Bob H wrote:

> Something I couldn't stop thinking about is reflection 'exponent' and 
> whether or not that might be plausible to use for the metal if you hadn't 
> already done so.

Wow, that looks like just the thing I was looking for!  Must try it! 
I'd completely forgot about it though I now remember reading about it in 
the manual, in the past.  Thing is, with this model it is too much work 
to edit the mesh so a material with ior can be used.  At least too much 
at the moment.  I *had* been trying to remember if "fresnel" took an 
exponent value, (while sitting in a cafe,... not at my computer :P ). 
Now I look at the docs I see that I might try the conserve_energy 
keyword too.

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Bob H wrote:

> that texture, though, since it looks pretty amazing already. Which makes me 
> ask, are your render times for this reasonable (hours not days)?

Usually just under 2 hrs, for 600x600 and most of that is on the iso 
surface cup especially where the lettering is displaced.  At higher 
resolutions though, I expect more time will be needed around the 
filligree at the base.

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Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
> > Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:
>

>
> It is a pragmatic ideal because "light" meshes can be rendered faster in
> games and in full movie animations also consume less resources.  Also
> less complexity allows for easier morphing at joints and in the faces.

Oh! Games, I forgot about those. There is no time for frivolity in my brand


only need a couple of hundred triangles to enter the gates of realism. Then
who am I to argue.

output to look like.


>
> I LOVED those brushes.  As a general rule I love humble things.  But not
> when it's used as a moral stricture.

Oh! Nice brushes BTW


humble way:-)

Stephen

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Stephen wrote:
> Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:
> 
>>Stephen wrote:
>>


My father's mother was born in Scotland and he and his two brothers and 
six sisters made a big deal of it.  And of course they kept their 
hardwood polished. Polished.


> Oh! Nice brushes BTW

I can't tell you enough.  They were thin you see, so they didn't suck up 
a lot of expensive paint.  And those long, irregular, limp bristles. 
Perfect.  Especially for oil paint of the certain viscosity that I 
liked.  I used a lot of varnish and stand oil in my medium.  Funny they 
are sold as gesso brushes.  The hog's hair swells with water which makes 
them useless.


> 

> humble way:-)
> 

No opinion due to my ignorance of that tale.  Maybe I can get back to 
you on it tho'.

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