Mick Hazelgrove wrote:
> 
> > > However, there are no such programs on the Mac.
> 
> There is a Mac version of Poser.

There you go. Now he just needs to talk a Mac programmer into making
a conversion utility and he will be all set.

-- 
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

> Actually it's more a case of people writing more utilities that support
> POV-Ray under Windows than for Mac. If more Mac people would write the
> utilities then it would not appear to be platform specific. You can't
> fault POV-Ray because 3DWin and Poser aren't supported on a Mac.

Hello Ken,

No, I'm not blaming POV-Ray. It's a wonderful program which I love dearly.

But this format have always been reserved for PC's since it was created, before it
was included in 3.5.
And I don't think that the creator of 3DWin have any plans to port his software.

I have no problem with platform specific features in POV-Ray, as long as it is
mentioned in the documentation.
Quite the opposite actually. There are a few Mac-specific things that I would like
to see in the mac version, like for example the ability to use Truetype fonts (if
it is technically possible).

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:
> 
> > Actually it's more a case of people writing more utilities that support
> > POV-Ray under Windows than for Mac. If more Mac people would write the
> > utilities then it would not appear to be platform specific. You can't
> > fault POV-Ray because 3DWin and Poser aren't supported on a Mac.
> 
> Hello Ken,
> 
> No, I'm not blaming POV-Ray. It's a wonderful program which I love dearly.
> 
> But this format have always been reserved for PC's since it was created, before it
> was included in 3.5.
> And I don't think that the creator of 3DWin have any plans to port his software.
> 
> I have no problem with platform specific features in POV-Ray, as long as it is
> mentioned in the documentation.

I think you are missing the point here. There is nothing about the mesh2
feature that restricts it to any one platform. The feature works the same
under the Mac OS as it does on any PC OS. If I were to email you a file
with the mesh2 syntax it would render exactly the same on your machine as
it does on my Windows machine. This means it is NOT platform specific and
saying so in the documentation would be misleading.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

> I think you are missing the point here. There is nothing about the mesh2
> feature that restricts it to any one platform.

I probably am missing the point, as I'm not a programmer.
So Mesh2 would have been included even if there were no converters on the PC-platform
either?


> If I were to email you a file
> with the mesh2 syntax it would render exactly the same on your machine as
> it does on my Windows machine.

Yes, I understand. What I'm commenting is that I must get a Windows machine like yours
to be able to use it, and that it would save a bit of frustration if that fact were
included in the documentation.

> This means it is NOT platform specific and
> saying so in the documentation would be misleading.

I guess that I'm a bit off when it comes to proper terminology. English isn't my first
language.
What I'm asking for is some kind of acknowledgement that Mac users can't use the Mesh2
format. As it is now, it looks like all users can use these new wonderful features.
Therefore one start to imagine what can be accomplished, start looking for a good
price
for Poser etc.

But after many, many hours searching through internet (your amazing link collection
was
the first place I looked at), the realization came slowly; there exist no practical
method for me to use this feature, except by cutting and pasting.
I could have been saved all those hours and fantasies with just a few words in the
documentation, like: "No converters exists for Mac". Then I could have accepted it,
forget it and just enjoy all the other features in this wonderful program.

I guess that I could try to write my own converter. I'm not a programmer, but I've
played a little with RealBasic.
Is there any pseudo code for a such converter anywhere? (I can't read C++)

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:
> 
> Ken wrote:
> 
> > I think you are missing the point here. There is nothing about the mesh2
> > feature that restricts it to any one platform.
> 
> I probably am missing the point, as I'm not a programmer.
> So Mesh2 would have been included even if there were no converters on the
PC-platform
> either?

Yes.
 
> > If I were to email you a file
> > with the mesh2 syntax it would render exactly the same on your machine as
> > it does on my Windows machine.
> 
> Yes, I understand. What I'm commenting is that I must get a Windows machine like
yours
> to be able to use it, and that it would save a bit of frustration if that fact were
> included in the documentation.

I would guess that no one has created a conversion program for the Mac
yet because this is the first time that mesh2 has been offered in the
offical version of POV-Ray. It takes a while for people out in the
community to find out what is in the new version of the program and
develop outside utilities for those features.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group

Post a reply to this message

> > I think you are missing the point here. There is nothing about the mesh2
> > feature that restricts it to any one platform.
> 
> I probably am missing the point, as I'm not a programmer.
> So Mesh2 would have been included even if there were no converters on the
PC-platform
> either?

Mesh2 is nothing more or less than another way of defining a triangle 
mesh IIRC.  This means that converters have not a lot to nothing to do 
with its presence in POV 3.5b1

> > If I were to email you a file
> > with the mesh2 syntax it would render exactly the same on your machine as
> > it does on my Windows machine.
> 
> Yes, I understand. What I'm commenting is that I must get a Windows machine like
yours
> to be able to use it, and that it would save a bit of frustration if that fact were
> included in the documentation.

I think there's a bit of confusion over what you mean by *use*.  Ken 
seems to take the point that to use it is to shove it into a scene and 
render it.  You seem to be taking 'use' to imply conversion to other 
formats...
 
All of this is IMO, of course :)

Bye for now,
     Jamie.

Post a reply to this message

In article <3B9B9FD8.AF9A4A6F@telia.com> , Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom>
wrote:

> But this format have always been reserved for PC's since it was created,
> before it was included in 3.5.

There is nothing PC specific about it.  If someone would just take the time
and write programs that can export to it on the Mac, there would be no
problem using it.  Oh, and of course it is always possible to code a mesh by
hand ;-)

> Mac-specific things that I would like to see in the Mac version, like for
> example the ability to use TrueType fonts (if it is technically possible).

TrueType font has been improved a lot in 3.5.  Try to use some of the fonts
you have installed.  For example open ":scenes:objects:ttf1.pov" and change
the font used in there from "crystal.ttf" to "times.ttf" or just plain
"times".  This should work at least with Mac OS 9 and later, but it may also
work with Mac OS 8.x but I didn't test it there.  It will also most likely
not work with all Mac fonts, but at least with most of the default ones.

Of course, as the Mac docs haven't been written yet, you couldn't know about
this feature...

Basically the conversion of TrueType fonts with the simple utility that was
included with 3.1g.r2 has now been merged into the Mac specific backend code
(the same hooks that allow the Windows version to filter file/pathnames for
IO restrictions allow the Mac version i.e. to do these font tricks).


    Thorsten


____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Stone" <tom### [at] teliacom> escribió en el mensaje
news:3B9BB755.EB425397@telia.com...
> Yes, I understand. What I'm commenting is that I must get a Windows
machine like yours
> to be able to use it, and that it would save a bit of frustration if that
fact were
> included in the documentation.

 But if tomorrow someone writes a program to do that, the docs will be
wrong!!! Indeed, the following tow quotes from your message are
incompatible:

> What I'm asking for is some kind of acknowledgement that Mac users can't
use the Mesh2
> format. As it is now, it looks like all users can use these new wonderful
features.

> I guess that I could try to write my own converter.

 because if you can write a program, it is not a plataform specific feature,
and then the documentation will be wrong stating it, isn't?

 Jaime

Post a reply to this message

>
> > So Mesh2 would have been included even if there were no converters on the
PC-platform
> > either?
>
> Yes.

Thanks Ken. I didn't expect that answer, but if you say so :-)

> I would guess that no one has created a conversion program for the Mac
> yet because this is the first time that mesh2 has been offered in the
> offical version of POV-Ray. It takes a while for people out in the
> community to find out what is in the new version of the program and
> develop outside utilities for those features.

I hope that it will become like that.

If no mention of this will be included in the documentation, then perhaps it can be
made on
the mac.povray.org site?
Perhaps a list named "Call for developers" that contains a list of things that needs
to be
done, like a Mesh2 converter, something to generate heightfields with more than 256
levels
etc. etc.

Post a reply to this message

Jamie Davison wrote:

>
> Mesh2 is nothing more or less than another way of defining a triangle
> mesh IIRC.  This means that converters have not a lot to nothing to do
> with its presence in POV 3.5b1

Yes, I was just informed by Ken about that. I though that the inclusion was partly to
the
sucess Gilles Tran and other PC users have had with the combination 3DWin and MegaPov.
Since no Mesh2 file have ever been produced on a Mac, I don't think that many Mac
users
have insisted much on its inclusion in the official release.
However, it seems like I was wrong.

>
> I think there's a bit of confusion over what you mean by *use*.  Ken
> seems to take the point that to use it is to shove it into a scene and
> render it.  You seem to be taking 'use' to imply conversion to other
> formats...

Sorry that I was unclear. English isn't my first language.
The only thing I mean with "use" is to be able to render a UV-mapped model in POV-Ray,
just
like Gilles Tran and others have been able to do for a long while. The documentation
seems
to imply that I can, when in fact, I can't.
(unless I write a converter myself or buy a PC)

Post a reply to this message

Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:

>  But if tomorrow someone writes a program to do that, the docs will be
> wrong!!!

That is a rather small concern, isn't it? There's links to PC converters, and
all of them might move to new websites tomorrow, or just get tired of
programming and close down their sites.

>
>  because if you can write a program, it is not a plataform specific feature,
> and then the documentation will be wrong stating it, isn't?

True. But I'm not very confident that I'm able to actually write one. I'm not a
programmer, and the only software I've created have been targeted to solve
rather unique needs unrelated to raytracing.

Post a reply to this message

> In all practical aspects, this feature seems platform specific. It would
have
> been nice to be able to use Poser figures, but hopefully there will be a
> solution for Mac users in version 4?

How can it be platform specific when the file format is a standard? As far
as I know Mesh 2 is simply another standard for writing triangle meshes. I'm
not very knowledgeable about this stuff but to me the reason for using such
a  mesh standard is that it is in a raw text format, all operating systems
support the editing and viewing of text files. Now if there was direct
support for Posers .obj file, which I take is a binary format, that would be
more platform specific. Please let me know if my understanding is flawed.

Post a reply to this message

Hello Thorsten,
Just the person I wanted to hear from! :-)
I can't thank you enough for all your work with the Mac version!
If there is anything I can do for you to show you my gratitude, just let me
know.

> There is nothing PC specific about it.  If someone would just take the time
> and write programs that can export to it on the Mac, there would be no
> problem using it.

Is there any chance of mentioning the need for a converter like this on the
mac.povray.org site? Hopefully, that will increase the odds that a developer
understand that there are a need for it.
As it is like now, one only finds out that no converters exist after several
hours of searching on Internet.

I could perhaps try myself, but as a non-programmer I'm not used to the
thinking required and I'm doubting that I would succeed without any
pseudo code to look at.

Perhaps one could get Joseph Strout to be interested to create a simple
converter as a tutorial for RealBasic?
He's the man behind modeller Meshwork, which exports to POV-ray
( http://codenautics.com/meshwork/ ), and since he became hired by
RealBasic, he has made several tutorial files that have used
POV-ray renderings ( http://www.strout.net/info/coding/rb/ ).
I guess that might increase the number of utilities for Mac users.
Especially now, as version 3.5 of RealBasic now have internal support
for 3D graphics.


> Oh, and of course it is always possible to code a mesh by
> hand ;-)

Oh, so you are also cutting and pasting between the formats?
Well, then I'm at least in good company! ;-)


>
> > Mac-specific things that I would like to see in the Mac version, like for
> > example the ability to use TrueType fonts (if it is technically possible).
>
> TrueType font has been improved a lot in 3.5.  Try to use some of the fonts
> you have installed.  For example open ":scenes:objects:ttf1.pov" and change
> the font used in there from "crystal.ttf" to "times.ttf" or just plain
> "times".  This should work at least with Mac OS 9 and later, but it may also
> work with Mac OS 8.x but I didn't test it there.  It will also most likely
> not work with all Mac fonts, but at least with most of the default ones.

WOW!  That is really good news! Thank you!
I'll try this immediately to see if I understood you correctly.
(I know that I'm starting to be annoying now, but... any chance that
Type1 fonts will be supported in the future?
As most of the things I do on the computer is aimed for print, I'm not
using TrueType a lot.)

Post a reply to this message

Thomas Lake wrote:

> > In all practical aspects, this feature seems platform specific.

> How can it be platform specific when the file format is a standard?

From a programmers perspective, it might not be platform specific.
But as a user... things are different. That's why I wrote "in all practical
aspects".

And I'm not sure that it is fair to call it a "standard". No Mesh2 file have
ever been
produced on a Mac.
If you give me a yes or no answer on the question "can you use UV mapped
models?",
then I know which platform you're on.

> Now if there was direct
> support for Posers .obj file, which I take is a binary format, that would be
> more platform specific. Please let me know if my understanding is flawed.

As a non-programmer, it is more likely that it is my understanding that is
flawed.
But, I can create a .obj file on the Mac. Also Dxf, 3dmf and a lot of other
formats.
But I can't create a Mesh2 file.

Understand me right. I'm not complaining about the Mesh2 format.
Nor the lack of converters.
I'm just commenting that the documentation seems to imply that
I can use it, when several hours of searching on the Internet reveals
that I can't.
Isn't it a good thing to save people from that kind of frustration?

Post a reply to this message

> I'm just commenting that the documentation seems to imply that
> I can use it, when several hours of searching on the Internet reveals
> that I can't.

  In 2 minutes of research I got this message from Joseph Strout:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meshwork/message/443

  So, better than complaining here, I will be mailing Joshep to demonstrate
him that mesh2 actually works with UV mapping on POV 3.5, and surely you
will have support for it on the next version of Meshworks (which I see is
updated often).

> Isn't it a good thing to save people from that kind of frustration?

  That's not the purpose of the docs, sorry. The will be too long if so...
:)

  Jaime

Post a reply to this message

Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:

> I will be mailing Joshep to demonstrate
> him that mesh2 actually works with UV mapping on POV 3.5, and surely you
> will have support for it on the next version of Meshworks

Thanks Jaime!

Then, hopefully, there will be a solution ready when the official release of
3.5 happens. Will there be a link to it from the documentation?

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:

> Will there be a link to it from the documentation?

Probably not. There is no mention of 3DWin in the mesh2 documentation
either. The POV-Ray documentation is about POV-Ray, not about third
party applications.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group.

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

> Tom Stone wrote:
>
> > Will there be a link to it from the documentation?
>
> Probably not. There is no mention of 3DWin in the mesh2 documentation
> either. The POV-Ray documentation is about POV-Ray, not about third
> party applications.

Then I've downloaded a very strange version, as I clearly can read:

"9.2.3 How can I convert my scenes from format X to POV-Ray format?
You can try WCTV2Pov and Crossroads3D by Keith Rule and 3DWin by Thomas
Baier. "

...with links to both of them. Then, since the documentation isn't
"about third party applications", will these references be removed?

I'm getting the feeling that everyone here would be happier if the Mac
users would shut up. Therefore, I'll contribute to a happier world.

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:

> Then I've downloaded a very strange version, as I clearly can read:
> 
> "9.2.3 How can I convert my scenes from format X to POV-Ray format?
> You can try WCTV2Pov and Crossroads3D by Keith Rule and 3DWin by Thomas
> Baier. "

And that is an FAQ appendix and not technically part of the documentation.
Regardless, I doubt we will add anything about Meshworks in the VFAQ until
we have confirmation that this feature will be supported and is fully
functional. You are more likely to see a reference to it on the official
mac.povray.org site once it has been developed.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
: Oh, and of course it is always possible to code a mesh by hand ;-)

  See the SDL raytracer tutorial for an example of this...

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
: And I'm not sure that it is fair to call it a "standard". No Mesh2 file have
: ever been produced on a Mac.

  Render the SDL raytracer tutorial example which comes with the documentation
and there you are.

: I'm just commenting that the documentation seems to imply that
: I can use it, when several hours of searching on the Internet reveals
: that I can't.

  Why couldn't you? I used it in that tutorial without the need of any third
party program. I just used it and period.

  If the documentation says that mesh2 is *mainly* intended for file
conversions, that doesn't mean that you couldn't use it directly (as I did).

  It's the exact same thing as with bicubic patches: They are mainly intended
for third party programs. However, nothing stops you from using the directly.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>   Render the SDL raytracer tutorial example which comes with the documentation
> and there you are.

I've just seen it. It's an amazing piece of work! I couldn't understand even half
of it, but it definitely shows the power of POV.

>
> : I'm just commenting that the documentation seems to imply that
> : I can use it,

>  Why couldn't you? I used it in that tutorial without the need of any third
> party program. I just used it and period.

True. Thanks for your help.
I guess that the reason for my misunderstanding is that I read Gilles Tran's
tutorial on how to use Poser figures in POV-Ray, in which he says that he needed
converters to get the models into the Mesh2 format. But I realize now that he
wrote that tutorial before the release of this Beta. Since, as you say, there
isn't any need for third party software anymore, I guess that there is a big
chance that Gilles will update his tutorial to show how to do the same
internally.

I've written Joseph Strout (developer of Meshwork) and asked if he could add .obj
to Mesh2 conversion in his software, but I'll write to him again and let him know
that it isn't necessary anymore.

Once again, thanks for your kind help! This is a great forum!

Sincerely,
Tom Stone

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
: But I realize now that he
: wrote that tutorial before the release of this Beta. Since, as you say, there
: isn't any need for third party software anymore

  Anymore? There has never been any need. The mesh2 is practically identical
in POV3.5 than it was in MegaPov. Nothing has changed.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:

> I guess that there is a big
> chance that Gilles will update his tutorial to show how to do the same
> internally.

Well, perhaps it's still unclear, but the problem hasn't changed with 3.5.

- mesh2 objects are text files that can be written by hand or by Povray itself.
They're not platform-specific and this has always be the case for meshes or bicubic
patches. Using them like this, however, is limited to simple objects or to objects
that can be generated algorithmically.

- if you have a file written in an other format, such as obj or 3DS, you'll need a
converter and presently these converters are mostly for Windows. Until a Mac
programmer writes a converter native to Mac, or until developers of commercial apps
start implementing mesh2 exports, the situation is not going to change. AFAIK, the
current workaround is still to use one of the few Mac apps that exports to Povray's
regular mesh (Amapi does it, I don't know about others). However, with Poser being
also a Mac application and mesh2 being an official POV-Ray feature, this is more
likely to happen than before.

Now, in the specific case of Poser, I guess that someone with a good understanding of
both the obj files exported by Poser and the mesh2 format could write a converter in
POV script. Not the most efficient solution though.

G.

--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
Graphic experiments
Pov-ray gallery

Post a reply to this message

Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote:

> - if you have a file written in an other format, such as obj or 3DS,
> you'll need a converter and presently these converters are mostly for
> Windows. Until a Mac programmer writes a converter native to Mac, or until
> developers of commercial apps start implementing mesh2 exports, the
> situation is not going to change.

If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
code, we might have a look at it.

Yvo & René

-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

Post a reply to this message

Gilles Tran wrote:

>  AFAIK, the
> current workaround is still to use one of the few Mac apps that exports to Povray's
> regular mesh (Amapi does it, I don't know about others).

Hello Gilles, thanks for answering. I think that Amapi only exports the geometry and
not
UV-textures, thats at least the case with the free 4.15 version.

> Now, in the specific case of Poser, I guess that someone with a good understanding
of
> both the obj files exported by Poser and the mesh2 format could write a converter in
> POV script. Not the most efficient solution though.

Are you really sure about that?
Warp said opposite, in a rather forceful way that felt pretty intimidating.
According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
expressed similar sentiments.

This is confusing.

Thanks anyway Gilles. I love your stories and pictures!
Tom

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:
> 
> Gilles Tran wrote:
> 
> Are you really sure about that?
> Warp said opposite, in a rather forceful way that felt pretty intimidating.
> According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
> and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
> expressed similar sentiments.

No, you didn't understand Warp (or Ken). Gilles is right.


Another way to explain things:

mesh2 is a POV object. Anybody can use a POV object. Take
your editor, write the text file, that's it. bicubic_patch
and mesh also are objects. Go use them.

But... mesh, mesh2 and bicubic_patch are sooo tedious to
code by hand. Just an infinite list of numbers. Almost no
human could write them by hand. At least not a useful number
of them.

So... you need a program to write them! Programs do "dumb"
things quickly, and generating several thousands of meshes
and bicubic_patch values is their job.

Now... how will the program create the objects? The program
can't "guess" them. It can use an algorithm to create
them: Someone could create a program that takes a point and
a radius as a parameter and outputs a pseudo-sphere made of
thousands of triangles. That's what most modelers do, indeed.

Or... The program could read a Poser object, decode it, and
write thousands of meshes to represent the object. That's a
converter.

Warp... has done a POV script that outputs mesh2 objects.
I have not looked at it, so I don't know what it uses as
input. But clearly, from what Warp and Gilles wrote, Warp's
script doesn't read Poser objects (or whatever objects).

So... you still need a converter from Whatever(tm) Object
format to POV mesh2 objects. That's your personal need.
But other people (like Warp) have personal uses of mesh2
that differ from yours. And those personal uses can work
on many platforms, as Warp's script do.

BTW: You might have misunderstood, in the previous messages,
some informations about the converters. Basically, every
Mac application programmer was waiting for a definitive
POV version before offering to output "mesh2" objects. Once
the beta is over, it is likely that software packages like
Poser will support it (if not, ask them).


Hope this finally clears things out.

-- 
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] freefr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
 Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs

Post a reply to this message

smellenbergh wrote:

> If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> code, we might have a look at it.

Thomas Baier has the source code for 3dto3d available for download.
http://www.stmuc.com/thbaier/download.html
but I don't understand exactly if it's free.

FlyerFX has a free specific obj (Poser) to Povray utility.
http://people.tamu.edu/~sfg2113/poserayhelp.htm
No source given but if someone ask him kindly...

G.
--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
Graphic experiments
Pov-ray gallery

Post a reply to this message

smellenbergh wrote:

> If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> code, we might have a look at it.

Hi,
That sounds wonderful!

Though, you might want to know that I got an answer from Joe Strout today:
==========================

>However, I seem to remember that you wrote somewhere that you might
>possibly add support for POV-Ray's new Mesh2 format that can handle UV
>mapping. Well, the POV-team have finally released a Beta version of
>version 3.5 which can be downloaded from:
>
>http://mac.povray.org/download/beta.html

Woo!  I've been waiting for this.  I thought I was on the list to
receive an announcement when it was released, but apparently not --
this is the first I've heard of it.

>I don't know how complicated it is, but I would really want to be able
>to convert Poser.obj files to be able to use it in POV-ray,

I've got a start on a general-purpose 3D model format converter.  I
certainly would include OBJ import/export and POV-ray export.
But  I'll see if I can get something into Meshwork soon, too.

>If this is unsuitable for Meshwork, then perhaps a such converter could
>be made possible as a tutorial for RealBasic?

It's a bit too complex of a thing for a tutorial, I think.

Cheers,
- Joe
,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe### [at] stroutnet           http://www.macwebdir.com/            |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
==================================

Since Joe seems to have started the work on a converter, it might not be
necessary for you to do all this work also.
However, I guess that Joe could have use for your expert knowledge. Is it okey
if I send your email address to him?

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
: According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
: and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so.

  I have never said anything like that.
  What I said is that you don't *necessarily* need an external program in
order to create a mesh2, as you can create one yourself.
  The mesh2 is not some kind of inaccessible binary encrypted file which can
only be created by sophisticated programs which mere mortals can't understand.
The mesh2 format is just a plain and easily readable ascii format which you
can write yourself by hand if you wish. It's not even very cryptic, but quite
logical. It's also absolutely platform-independent; it doesn't contain anything
that would depend on a certain system.
  Of course this doesn't mean it's easy. As meshes just contain vertex points
and a whole surface is built up with triangles using those vertex points, it's
near impossible to make anything really complex just by writing numbers by
hand.
  There are mainly three ways of creating a mesh/mesh2:

  - You just write one by hand by entering coordinates. Usually this is
limited to extremely simple shapes such as boxes because it becomes just too
difficult to do anything more complicated (forget about making a human face
by entering vertex coordinates by hand).

  - You can algorithmically generate (with POV-Ray SDL) a mesh. With this you
can do a lot more complicated things with lots of triangles. One simple example
is to create a spherical surface with thousands of triangles.
  Here you basically just write a POV-Ray script which creates the mesh using
math.

  - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
triangle mesh in POV-Ray format. What the program does is just to generate
the mesh in POV-Ray format (the exact same format which you can write by
hand) from some input (usually a mesh in another non-pov format).

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:

> According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
> and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
> expressed similar sentiments.
> 
> This is confusing.

I am sorry you feel this way. I thought I was being more than patient with
you trying to get you to understand the reality of the situation. I guess
I have failed and I don't know what else to offer you.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>   - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
> triangle mesh in POV-Ray format.

Ah, good news again. Where can I find it?

Look Warp, I'm very grateful that you have the patience to answer me. Do not doubt
that.
However, it seems like we are constantly talking past each other. That we are
misunderstanding each other on a fundamental level. On a cognitive level, I do
understand that you're trying to help, but I still just get more frustrated and
feel more stupid.
Agreed, that's my problem, not yours.. but yet...

I suspect that we have different definitions on the word "use".
From a programmer's point of view, I guess that everything you say is correct.
Your SDL Raytracer is an excellent proof that we can "use" Mesh2. We could also,
if we all were programmers, write our own Pov-patches to use whatever fileformat
we desire. So, while a programmer can make amazing things with this format, I
still guess that the main reason for it's inclusion in the official release is to
provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes. Now, I'm
perhaps claiming a too high ranking, but I consider myself to be an average user.

I'm not a programmer, so my definition of the word "use" is different. I "use"
POV-Ray to get a mental image to appear on the computer screen. If I want to make
an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
UV-mapped mesh model of the man. The documentation seems to imply that I can do
that.

But can I really, as a non-programmer, "use" an UV-mapped mesh model without
buying a PC?

If the POV team has gone through all the trouble of including the Mesh2 format in
the official release, then wouldn't they get happy if as many as possible actually
can use it (including non-programmers)? If no Mac users are able to use this
feature, just because there isn't any converters, then wouldn't it increase the
chances that a developer will make one if it is obvious that a need exists?
What do the POV team gain from pretending that there isn't a need for a Mesh2
converter on the Mac platform?

Since the Faq-part of the documentation already gives links to several third-party
utilities that are platform specific (for both Mac and PC), then why not take it a
tiny step further? Like adding a small list after the FAQ with "Ideas for third
party developers". I'm sure that both Mac and PC developers would find such a list
useful.
Like, a density file is a powerful feature in POV, but I haven't seen many use it.
A df3 editor might change that, so why not say that out front?

Oh well. I've been using POV-Ray since 1996, and I love it dearly. Had I felt
nothing for the program, I wouldn't been causing trouble here and now.

Smellenbergh offered to make a Mac Mesh2 converter.
But it seems like Joe Strout have a head start.
However, it would be nice to have a Mac version of your Mesh compressor.
Perhaps you and the Smellenberghs can discuss a Mac port of it?
(Sorry Yvo & René :-)

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

>  I guess
> I have failed and I don't know what else to offer you.

Thanks Ken. This last message offered more than what you might believe.

Post a reply to this message

Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote:

> > If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> > hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> > code, we might have a look at it.
> 
> Thomas Baier has the source code for 3dto3d available for download.
> http://www.stmuc.com/thbaier/download.html
> but I don't understand exactly if it's free.
Its not free at all.
> FlyerFX has a free specific obj (Poser) to Povray utility.
> http://people.tamu.edu/~sfg2113/poserayhelp.htm
> No source given but if someone ask him kindly...
I just contacted the author. Now just waiting for a reply.

Thanks for the hints,

Yvo


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:

> Since Joe seems to have started the work on a converter, it might not be
> necessary for you to do all this work also.
> However, I guess that Joe could have use for your expert knowledge. Is it okey
> if I send your email address to him?
You can always do so but I don't think we can be of much help, we know
very little about 3D file formats. 

Yvo


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
:>   - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
:> triangle mesh in POV-Ray format.

: Ah, good news again. Where can I find it?

  "It"? There are many. For many purposes. Some convert meshes from other
formats, others create meshes algorithmically (eg plants and trees from
lparser algorithms) and so on. It depends on what you want to do.

: So, while a programmer can make amazing things with this format, I
: still guess that the main reason for it's inclusion in the official release is to
: provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes.

  What else would it be? Meshes are extremely efficient primitives. POV-Ray
can render a mesh with hundreds of millions of triangles in question of
minutes. It's an extremely useful primitive because of its efficiency and
because it's the most common primitive used in modellers.

: If I want to make
: an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
: UV-mapped mesh model of the man. The documentation seems to imply that I can do
: that.

  Of course you can do that, but you need some way of converting that model
to a format which POV-Ray can read.

: What do the POV team gain from pretending that there isn't a need for a Mesh2
: converter on the Mac platform?

  Who said there's no need for a converter? I still don't understand this idea
of yours.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

> It depends on what you want to do.

I want to have people in my scenes with somewhat realistic hands. Look at Gilles
Tran's site for examples.

> it's inclusion in the official release is to
> : provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes.
>
>   What else would it be?

Exactly. Using, as you suggested, your SDL Raytracer doesn't strike me as a practical
way for me, an agerage user, to use it. Nor do I believe, as you also said, that if I,
a single user, run the SDL Raytracer will suddenly cause Mesh2 to become a standard
format on the Mac platform.

>
> : If I want to make
> : an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
> : UV-mapped mesh model of the man.
>
>   Of course you can do that, but you need some way of converting that model
> to a format which POV-Ray can read.

-"I don't have a parachute like you, so I can't jump out of this plane"
-"Of course you can jump like me, as long as you have a parachute."
-"Oh, then we can both jump then?"
-"Yes, of course!"

>
>   Who said there's no need for a converter? I still don't understand this idea
> of yours.

Cut and paste from an earlier posting of yours:
"Anymore? There has never been any need."

Is it really impossible to add a line in the docs (for example in 9.2.3), saying
something like:

"At the date of this release, there are no known POV converters on the Mac platform"
That's all I'm asking for.

Or, are there any Mac beta testers here that have been able to create and test an UV
mapped Mesh2 object that have been more complicated than a cube?

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Stone" <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote in message
news:3B9E0900.76AC3576@telia.com...
>
> Or, are there any Mac beta testers here that have been able to create and test
an UV
> mapped Mesh2 object that have been more complicated than a cube?

Well, there are probably some Mac beta testers who have access to a windows
machine, who can therefore copy the required converted text files across... I
have to admit that it's very hard to work out whether or not you have understood
the issue.

Post a reply to this message

Tom Melly wrote:

> I
> have to admit that it's very hard to work out whether or not you have understood
> the issue.

The only issue is the documentation.

If you read the section:
=====================
6.5.2.4 Mesh2
The new mesh syntax is designed for use in conversion from other file formats.
=====================

That information makes you look up:

=====================
9.2.3 How can I convert my scenes from format X to POV-Ray format?
You can try WCTV2Pov and Crossroads3D by Keith Rule and 3DWin by Thomas Baier.
=====================

Well, if "you" in that passage refers to me, that the information in 9.2.3 is
incorrect. I can't try any of them.
That is, this part of the docs seems to imply that all users are PC users, as "you"
is directed towards every person that reads it. The advice given is platform
specific, and that goes against the main philosophy elsewhere in the docs.

I want this part to acknowledge that not only PC users are using POV-Ray. If I read
"you" in the docs, then I want to feel that the text really are talking to me. That
is not the case right now.

That's why I initiated this discussion.

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone wrote:
> 
> Tom Melly wrote:
> 
> > I
> > have to admit that it's very hard to work out whether or not you have understood
> > the issue.
> 
> The only issue is the documentation.
> 
> If you read the section:
> =====================
> 6.5.2.4 Mesh2
> The new mesh syntax is designed for use in conversion from other file formats.
> =====================
> 
> That information makes you look up:
> 
> =====================
> 9.2.3 How can I convert my scenes from format X to POV-Ray format?
> You can try WCTV2Pov and Crossroads3D by Keith Rule and 3DWin by Thomas Baier.
> =====================

Yes, I wrote that like three years ago even before the Mesh2 syntax was
conceived. Yes, there are currently no conversion utilities available on
the Mac platform that can support the Mesh2 syntax. What would you like
me to say ? I cannot give advice to Mac users in the FAQ until someone
in the POV-Ray community gets off their tailends and writes the software.
The POV-Team has no responsibility to write the conversion utility because
that is up to the community of Mac programmers to do themselves. If the Mac
platform is too restrictive for your tastes then maybe you should by a PC!

We have wasted way too much message space on this thread and this is the
last I am going to say on the subject.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Asssistance Group

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

> What would you like
> me to say ?

You've given two perfect examples here:
"Yes, there are currently no conversion utilities available on
the Mac platform that can support the Mesh2 syntax."

and:
"I cannot give advice to Mac users in the FAQ until someone
in the POV-Ray community gets off their tailends and writes the software."

Include either quote in 9.2.3 so the documentation will be accurate. What is there now
isn't true.

> If the Mac
> platform is too restrictive for your tastes then maybe you should by a PC!

That is also an opinion that might be used in 9.2.3. Perhaps not an opinion that I
support, but at least it acknowledges other platforms than PC. Which isn't the case
right now.

> We have wasted way too much message space on this thread

Have I spent enough time on this to make it a "Frequently Asked Question" yet? If so,
then I don't need to spend any more time on it either.

Post a reply to this message

Gilles Tran wrote:

> - if you have a file written in an other format, such as obj or 3DS, you'll need a
> converter and presently these converters are mostly for Windows. Until a Mac
> programmer writes a converter native to Mac, or until developers of commercial apps
> start implementing mesh2 exports, the situation is not going to change.

How about some Java programmers instead?


> Now, in the specific case of Poser, I guess that someone with a good understanding
of
> both the obj files exported by Poser and the mesh2 format could write a converter in
> POV script. Not the most efficient solution though.

Anyone out ther know these? I know Java quit well, so I could help spearhead this.

--
Wind the Frog!

Post a reply to this message

Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
: Cut and paste from an earlier posting of yours:

  From a completely different context.

: Is it really impossible to add a line in the docs (for example in 9.2.3), saying
: something like:

: "At the date of this release, there are no known POV converters on the Mac platform"

  That would probably be a lie, as I'm sure there must exist at least some
converter which support a POV-Ray format for the Mac.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>
>
> : "At the date of this release, there are no known POV converters on the Mac
platform"
>
>   That would probably be a lie, as I'm sure there must exist at least some
> converter which support a POV-Ray format for the Mac.

Yasunari Iwanaga's java program "dxfPR" do a fair job of converting dxf to tringle
mesh,
but textures are not supported.
Olivier Wailly's "EPStoPOV" can (sometimes) convert an Adobe Illustrator EPS file to
Pov's Prism or Lathe object.
That is the only converters I know about.

There are perhaps some modeller that can export to Pov, like Amapi (which convert
geometry but drops colors and textures), but modellers have their own heading.

However, that's beside the point.
9.2.3 says "you can try..." and then suggest something that is clearly false.
Should I then assume that all "you can try.." elsewhere in the docs also are false?

If it is impossible to clarify 9.2.3 by adding a line, then perhaps it is possible to
have a better definition of who "you" in "you can try..." is? Like; "PC users can
try..."
That would also avoid any misunderstanding.

I've understood that the phrasing will not be changed, no matter what I say, but I
still
don't understand why is it so important to keep this lie in the FAQ?  Are those words
holy? Or has the POV team decided to slowly get rid of the cross platform philosophy
and
that this is a sign that only PC versions will be made in the future? Or is there any
other way that I can interpret the fact that 9.2.3 of the docs takes it for granted
that
ALL its readers are PC users.

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:23:58 +0200, Tom Stone wrote:
>holy? Or has the POV team decided to slowly get rid of the cross platform philosophy
and
>that this is a sign that only PC versions will be made in the future? Or is there any
>other way that I can interpret the fact that 9.2.3 of the docs takes it for granted
that
>ALL its readers are PC users.

I think the answer is that you need to try decaf.  You're reading far 
more into a few little words than anyone ever put there.

-- 
#local R=rgb 99;#local P=R-R;#local F=pigment{gradient x}box{0,1pigment{gradient
y pigment_map{[.5F pigment_map{[.3R][.3F color_map{[.15red 99][.15P]}rotate z*45
translate x]}]#local H=pigment{gradient y color_map{[.5P][.5R]}scale 1/3}[.5F
pigment_map{[.3R][.3H][.7H][.7R]}]}}}camera{location.5-3*z}//only my opinions

Post a reply to this message

From: "Ron Parker" <ron### [at] povrayorg>
> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:23:58 +0200, Tom Stone wrote:
> >holy? Or has the POV team decided to slowly get rid of the cross platform
philosophy and
> >that this is a sign that only PC versions will be made in the future? Or
is there any
> >other way that I can interpret the fact that 9.2.3 of the docs takes it
for granted that
> >ALL its readers are PC users.
>
> I think the answer is that you need to try decaf.  You're reading far
> more into a few little words than anyone ever put there.

IMHO, that's all the problem... I simply read that the only known converters
are X and Z. Dot. Anyhow, if something will be added to the FAQ, I propose
this wording, which reflects the real situation:

"Q: Can Tom Stone use Poser models with POV-Ray on a Mac, at the very moment
of writting this FAQ? "
"A: No, he can't"

  Jaime

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker wrote:

> I think the answer is that you need to try decaf.  You're reading far
> more into a few little words than anyone ever put there.

Trying decaf will change the situation in 9.2.3?

Post a reply to this message

"Jaime Vives Piqueres" <jai### [at] ignoranciaorg> wrote in message
news:3ba06691@news.povray.org...

> "Q: Can Tom Stone use Poser models with POV-Ray on a Mac, at the very moment
> of writting this FAQ? "
> "A: No, he can't"

LOL - works for me...

Post a reply to this message

Jon A. Cruz <jon### [at] geocitiescom> wrote:

Jon, we send a mail to you, in reply to your mail, but it bounced back
with this message:
   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<jon### [at] geocitiescom>
    (reason: 550 5.7.1 Access denied)
Should we try again or do you have another e-mail adress?

Yvo Smellenbergh
> Gilles Tran wrote:
> 
> > - if you have a file written in an other format, such as obj or 3DS,
> > you'll need a converter and presently these converters are mostly for
> > Windows. Until a Mac programmer writes a converter native to Mac, or
> > until developers of commercial apps start implementing mesh2 exports,
> > the situation is not going to change.
> 
> How about some Java programmers instead?
> 
> 
> > Now, in the specific case of Poser, I guess that someone with a good
> > understanding of both the obj files exported by Poser and the mesh2
> > format could write a converter in POV script. Not the most efficient
> > solution though.
> 
> Anyone out ther know these? I know Java quit well, so I could help
spearhead this.
> 
> --
> Wind the Frog!


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

Post a reply to this message

Yvo Smellenbergh wrote:

> Jon A. Cruz <jon### [at] geocitiescom> wrote:
>
> Jon, we send a mail to you, in reply to your mail, but it bounced back
> with this message:
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> <jon### [at] geocitiescom>
>     (reason: 550 5.7.1 Access denied)
> Should we try again or do you have another e-mail adress?

Strange. It's still working quite well for spammers to send me things.
Perhaps it was a temporary sending problem. Or worse, it could be that
geocities/yahoo is blocking mail from your ISP. But a sending-side thing is
probably it.

Try again. If that keeps up, you can also try jon### [at] yahoocom.

If that fails, try jon### [at] speakeasynet
It's my ISP I just switched to. I don't check it often, but things should
get through.

--
Wind the Frog!

Post a reply to this message