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The problem with politicians isn't that
they don't do the right thing,
it's that they need to think about what
the right thing to do is.
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On 15-1-2011 1:57, Darren New wrote:
> Do you believe your government is working in the best interests of the
> people of the country? If you answer, what country are you in?
You have to split this question in three
1) Do politicians *think* they are doing the best for their country?
2) Are they?
3) Are they controlling the government and the legislative process?
To start with the simplest one: I am Dutch, but you knew that
ad 1) In my country many of them are convinced they know best what
direction the country should go. A small minority is in it solely as a
job, a way to make money. The only one I have doubts about is Geert
Wilders. I think he is intelligent enough to see that to expand his
influence he is actually harming the cohesion of the country. Yet even
he might be seriously thinking that his way is the only way to save the
country in the long run. So either he or me is badly informed.
ad 2) Often it does not matter much what direction you take as long as
you are consistent for some time. Changing direction every few years
might actually be better than following one path too long. In that sense
I don't mind it if the party that I support does not get a part in the
government. As long as it happens in a democratic way.*
ad 3) mostly not. Which might explain a lot of the frustration of the
people.
> The reason I ask is that there seems here often to be confusion about
> stuff going down in the USA. Like how some people whose judicial system
> doesn't include juries think that professional juries or judges would be
> a better answer than a group of random uneducated people off the street.
>
> I think a lot of what happens in the USA, a lot of what Americans
> complain about, is that it's pretty obvious that in spite of what the
> people want, and in spite of what would be good for the country as a
> whole, it just keeps not happening, regardless of who gets elected. How
> many people want the wars to continue? How many people think the TSA is
> doing a good job? How many people think the tax situation can't be made
> far better?
>
> So, do you folks in Europe or Africa or South America or wherever you
> may live trust your government to be trying to do well for you?
> (Obviously, not perfect, or government wouldn't have to enforce the
> laws.) Or do you think your government is out to get you?
The government is not out to get me. That concept strikes me as rather
American.
*) Which given the current situation means that I think this government
should not have happened. They don't have a majority in the country and
only half plus one** support in parliament. Plus too many people in it
that are solely in it for themselves. We used to have governments with
better ethics. Though I might be biased.
**) There is an interesting reason why this happened and why I think our
queen needs more power to prevent this, but in order to keep this post
within bounds I won't bother you with that.
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andrel wrote:
> The government is not out to get me. That concept strikes me as rather
> American.
OK. I think that a lot of the bad feelings in the USA about the government
falls along the lines of "the supreme court elected bush, not the people",
or "corporations bribe the politicians", or that they're only interested in
how much money and power they can get and not in doing the job, stuff like
that. I.e., the politicians aren't doing what they were elected to do, so it
doesn't really matter who you elected. They're working for the greedy folks
who are taking your money and health.
I just wondered if this was just an exaggerated view of what others also
experience, or if my memories from decades ago thinking the government while
perhaps misguided was at least trying were due to me not following politics
as much.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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On 1/15/2011 5:33 AM, Tim Attwood wrote:
> The problem with politicians isn't that they don't do the right thing,
> it's that they need to think about what
> the right thing to do is.
Uh.. No, in my experience the problem arises when people **don't** think
about what the right thing to do is, they just *know* what it is, then
distort, twist, mangle, and/or redefine things, until, even if it only
seems so to them, the "facts" appear to conform to the "truth (tm)" they
imagined all along.
You get the same thing among the religious. As one article's title
described it: "God’s Leading = My Desire". In politics, this is, "The
right thing = What ever I want to work, even if it actually doesn't".
Show me someone that doesn't think, at all, about what is right and
wrong, and I will show you someone with the same name as me, running as
fast as I can away from them.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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On 1/15/2011 7:06 PM, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> The government is not out to get me. That concept strikes me as rather
>> American.
>
> OK. I think that a lot of the bad feelings in the USA about the
> government falls along the lines of "the supreme court elected bush, not
> the people", or "corporations bribe the politicians", or that they're
> only interested in how much money and power they can get and not in
> doing the job, stuff like that. I.e., the politicians aren't doing what
> they were elected to do, so it doesn't really matter who you elected.
> They're working for the greedy folks who are taking your money and health.
>
> I just wondered if this was just an exaggerated view of what others also
> experience, or if my memories from decades ago thinking the government
> while perhaps misguided was at least trying were due to me not following
> politics as much.
>
Probably the later, to some extent, but even some of the politician
admit that things have gotten to the point where you can't get jack
done, because neither side is transparent, both sides have their own pet
methods of hiding what is going on (the rights calls them "faith based
initiatives", or, "helping small businesses via deregulation", while the
left call it "privacy", or "respecting people" - code for not call them
on what ever they are doing wrong, especially if they are on the left,
which often amounts to the same thing), and both sides, at this point,
want to win at any cost, even if it means the federal government grinds
to a halt (or rather to a bigger halt than only showing up 3 days a
week, then whining about how you missed the meeting, so didn't get a
chance to look at the legislation proposed, already does to it).
That last bit I really love. How many jobs, including 100% of al
businesses, would let you only show up 3 days a week, pay you a full
time 40 hour salary, give you full health care benefits, then listen
when you whined at them that, "I didn't know the company was going to do
**that**! Someone should have had a meeting about it before we
decided!!" Head->desk...
Better yet, what twit put that in the law?
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
> Do you believe your government is working in the best interests of the
> people of the country? If you answer, what country are you in?
It's rather obvious that the majority of elected representatives are
not there exclusively to benefit themselves at the cost of their citizens
because if that were the case, the country would have crumbled long ago.
Keeping a country afloat economically, politically and socially requires
that the people making decisions want to do that.
There are (still) many things here (and most other European countries)
that directly benefit the citizens and are considered of upmost importance,
such as free/inexpensive education for everybody (here including up to
university level), free/inexpensive health care and so on. (And even more
importantly, at least here in Finland, and probably at least in the other
Nordic countries and probably in many other European countries, there is
no difference between rich and poor in this respect. Rich and poor all go
to the same schools, the same hospitals, and so on. Even the notion of a
difference sounds very foreign.)
Of course this doesn't mean that there aren't individual politicians who
think more about themselves than anybody else.
However, there are some other more worrying general trends among the
governments of many European countries, including to some extent Finland's.
The importance of some of the most fundamental tenets of society have been
slowly devalued. Things like democracy and freedom of expression.
It may sound like nutjob political conspiracy theorist stuff, but it
really isn't. It really has been happening. The importance of, for example,
asking the citizens' opinion on certain things and voting for things has
been noticeably reduced in the last 10 or 20 years. Less and less decisions
are subject to public discussions, polls and votes, important decisions
which affect the society as a whole. Even in Finland important laws are
being passed by the parliament in a rush, without giving the public any
time to voice their opinion on it. It's no coincidence that in many cases
these are controversial laws which the politicians know people disagree with.
(Good examples of this include the new draconian gun control law, the
controversial new immigration law, the internet censorship law, and the
new copyright law.)
I think this is a good example of a situation where the representatives
are not even listening to the people they represent, even though that's
kind of what they are for.
Another thing being devalued is freedom of speech. "Freedom of speech
does not mean you can ..." has always been a guiding principle. However,
if you compare how that sentence was typically completed 20 years ago and
how it is typically completed today, you will notice that what is allowed
today is significantly narrower than what was ok 20 years ago. More and
more things are being added to the list of things not allowed by freedom
of speech.
In many cases the law itself has not changed, only its *interpretation*.
It's being applied more strictly today than 20 years ago, and the only
guiding principle seems to be the political correctness trend. What is
trendy today affects how judges interpret the same law.
It can be noticed that many politicians, and especially the media, hate
freedom of speech (as ironic as that might sound). They hate it because
it allows people to express the "wrong" opinions. No longer is the basis
of a free society "I disagree with what you are saying, but I'll defend
to death your right to say it". No. There is more and more demand today
to forcibly shut up people with the "wrong" opinions. The value of people
being able to freely disagree and express their disagreement is being lost.
The pressure on politicians to do something about this "problem" of
people being allowed to express the "wrong" opinions is rather high, and
more and more laws limiting freedom of speech are being passed.
There is also clearly a growing dislike of democracy for the same reason:
Democracy allows citizens to vote for the "wrong" people, which is seen as
a huge "problem" by many. It's to be seen where this sentiment will lead.
--
- Warp
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On 16-1-2011 10:08, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
>> Do you believe your government is working in the best interests of the
>> people of the country? If you answer, what country are you in?
>
> It's rather obvious that the majority of elected representatives are
> not there exclusively to benefit themselves at the cost of their citizens
> because if that were the case, the country would have crumbled long ago.
> Keeping a country afloat economically, politically and socially requires
> that the people making decisions want to do that.
>
> There are (still) many things here (and most other European countries)
> that directly benefit the citizens and are considered of upmost importance,
> such as free/inexpensive education for everybody (here including up to
> university level), free/inexpensive health care and so on. (And even more
> importantly, at least here in Finland, and probably at least in the other
> Nordic countries and probably in many other European countries, there is
> no difference between rich and poor in this respect. Rich and poor all go
> to the same schools, the same hospitals, and so on. Even the notion of a
> difference sounds very foreign.)
>
> Of course this doesn't mean that there aren't individual politicians who
> think more about themselves than anybody else.
>
> However, there are some other more worrying general trends among the
> governments of many European countries, including to some extent Finland's.
> The importance of some of the most fundamental tenets of society have been
> slowly devalued. Things like democracy and freedom of expression.
>
> It may sound like nutjob political conspiracy theorist stuff, but it
> really isn't. It really has been happening. The importance of, for example,
> asking the citizens' opinion on certain things and voting for things has
> been noticeably reduced in the last 10 or 20 years. Less and less decisions
> are subject to public discussions, polls and votes, important decisions
> which affect the society as a whole. Even in Finland important laws are
> being passed by the parliament in a rush, without giving the public any
> time to voice their opinion on it. It's no coincidence that in many cases
> these are controversial laws which the politicians know people disagree with.
> (Good examples of this include the new draconian gun control law, the
> controversial new immigration law, the internet censorship law, and the
> new copyright law.)
>
> I think this is a good example of a situation where the representatives
> are not even listening to the people they represent, even though that's
> kind of what they are for.
>
> Another thing being devalued is freedom of speech. "Freedom of speech
> does not mean you can ..." has always been a guiding principle. However,
> if you compare how that sentence was typically completed 20 years ago and
> how it is typically completed today, you will notice that what is allowed
> today is significantly narrower than what was ok 20 years ago. More and
> more things are being added to the list of things not allowed by freedom
> of speech.
>
> In many cases the law itself has not changed, only its *interpretation*.
> It's being applied more strictly today than 20 years ago, and the only
> guiding principle seems to be the political correctness trend. What is
> trendy today affects how judges interpret the same law.
>
> It can be noticed that many politicians, and especially the media, hate
> freedom of speech (as ironic as that might sound). They hate it because
> it allows people to express the "wrong" opinions. No longer is the basis
> of a free society "I disagree with what you are saying, but I'll defend
> to death your right to say it". No. There is more and more demand today
> to forcibly shut up people with the "wrong" opinions. The value of people
> being able to freely disagree and express their disagreement is being lost.
>
> The pressure on politicians to do something about this "problem" of
> people being allowed to express the "wrong" opinions is rather high, and
> more and more laws limiting freedom of speech are being passed.
>
> There is also clearly a growing dislike of democracy for the same reason:
> Democracy allows citizens to vote for the "wrong" people, which is seen as
> a huge "problem" by many. It's to be seen where this sentiment will lead.
Funny, my impression is that there is continuously less restrictions on
freedom of expression. Both legislative, the article on blasphemy is
effectively a dead letter and it is under threat to be removed entirely,
and in practice, people are ridiculing the Islamic god and its believers
in the same way as they used to do with the Christian god and his'.
It might be that your perceived intolerance of opinions may partly be
explained by the fact that such opinions were not as often expressed
outside the pub 20 years ago.
(I know the situation is much more complicated than what you or I are
expressing, and I know you know)
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On 16-1-2011 3:06, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> The government is not out to get me. That concept strikes me as rather
>> American.
>
> OK. I think that a lot of the bad feelings in the USA about the
> government falls along the lines of "the supreme court elected bush, not
> the people", or "corporations bribe the politicians", or that they're
> only interested in how much money and power they can get and not in
> doing the job, stuff like that. I.e., the politicians aren't doing what
> they were elected to do, so it doesn't really matter who you elected.
> They're working for the greedy folks who are taking your money and health.
Part of your problem might be that there is no real debate because that
does not sell the advertising minutes. It is much easier to keep your
consumers looking by telling them that what they already thought is true
(irrespective of if that is true or not, broadcasting companies have
only a moral duty to their shareholders). In Europe it is not as bad as
in most countries there is still also a public funded politically
independent broadcasting system. Yet also here there is too often no
real debate, I agree with Warp on that.
> I just wondered if this was just an exaggerated view of what others also
> experience, or if my memories from decades ago thinking the government
> while perhaps misguided was at least trying were due to me not following
> politics as much.
sorry, can't parse that.
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andrel wrote:
> Part of your problem might be that there is no real debate
Sure. I'm really just trying to get a feel for whether many europeans think
of it as "us against them" when it comes to the government, or whether they
think their government is succeeding, or at least failing due to something
other than malice (like it being a fundamentally difficult task).
> sorry, can't parse that.
Basically, I was saying "it seems the goverment is much more toxic in the
USA than I remember from when I was younger. Is it really more toxic than
other civilized western governments, or am I just remembering poorly?"
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Warp wrote:
> Keeping a country afloat economically, politically and socially requires
> that the people making decisions want to do that.
Yes. I'm worried that the USA is racing towards the brink in that respect.
Thank you for your extended response and the time it took. It sounds like
you're mostly happy but it seems to also be slowly changing for the worse in
some important ways. I hope the trend reverses for your country. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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