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"nemesis" <nam### [at] gmail com> wrote in message
news:4a0dd1e9@news.povray.org...
> I tried updating the wikipedia entry on The Incredibles with the
> following update:
>
> A more direct inspiration is the comic book masterpiece Watchmen, by
> Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons. In it, super-heroes are banned and living
> common life, a plot to secretly kill heroes is going on, there's a
> mysterious Island where a threatening menace is being created (not in
> the Watchmen movie though), the plan of the "villain" itself being to
> lie to people that they are under attack so that he can secretly realize
> his fantasy of being hero of the world. The main differences being that
> Watchmen's "villain" truly turns out to save the world by way of his
> machiavelic plan and that no hero is truly super: the only one with true
> superpower couldn't care less for mankind or living organisms. Even the
> "no cape" is from Watchmen, as one of the hooded crime busters of the
> past is shot to death as his cape gets entangled in a bank's revolving
> door. The Omnidroid closely resembles the organic life-form the
> Watchmen's "villain" has built, tentacles, monocular vision and size
> matching.
I know and care less than nothing about either the Incredibles or Watchmen,
but my 2 cents says the text above reads very much like an argument, not as
an encyclopedic entry. Maybe that's the contention. It's not an
encyclopedia's job to make a point (and no, some bad examples from Wikipedia
don't change this rule) but to document well established points. If you have
a reference, only a single sentence should suffice.
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somebody wrote:
> I know and care less than nothing about either the Incredibles or Watchmen,
> but my 2 cents says the text above reads very much like an argument, not as
> an encyclopedic entry. Maybe that's the contention. It's not an
> encyclopedia's job to make a point (and no, some bad examples from Wikipedia
> don't change this rule) but to document well established points. If you have
> a reference, only a single sentence should suffice.
may be. I'll try to rework it then...
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"nemesis" <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote in message
news:4a0e1da3@news.povray.org...
> Darren New wrote:
> > You can say "the film shares plot points with Watchmen." I don't htink
> > you've justified "the film was inspired by Watchmen."
> A whole lot of very unconventional plot points. See my reply above.
>
> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
That's not an encyclopedic wording. You never want to read opinion pieces
from encycpedia authors, you don't even want to feel that there's a human
author behind an entry.
> Besides, I don't think Brad Bird would go on and admit a ripping like
that.
If there's no hard evidence or prior research, your option is to publish
your analysis somewhere respectable, and then add it to Wikipedia.
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somebody wrote:
> If there's no hard evidence or prior research, your option is to publish
> your analysis somewhere respectable, and then add it to Wikipedia.
So, those very distinct and unconventional plot points I listed offer
absolutely no evidence at all? The fact that Watchmen is one of the
most respectable and influential comics ever and we're talking here
about comics creators and animators who no doubt are aware of each other
works is of no relevancy either? Ok.
Anyway, this was not invention of mine, many other people who *know*
Watchmen saw the similarities. I was just pointing out them.
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nemesis wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>> to Watchmen
>>
>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>> similar.
>>
>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>> minimum.
>
> How could he not be aware of this classic?
It doesn't matter. If you assert Bird was inspired, you would need to give a
reference to it. They're saying you are doing original research. I agree
with their opinion because the rest of your message is arguing that your
original research is plausible or even likely.
> what I do know is:
... a whole list of things which have nothing to do with Bird or his thought
processes.
> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
I think it's enough for your link. That isn't the point.
Did you figure this link out yourself? Or did you read about it somewhere?
If the former, it's original research. If the latter, provide the citation.
It seems pretty easy to me. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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nemesis wrote:
> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
Then it's original research. If *you* think it's not mere coincidence, you
don't have a citation.
> Besides, I don't think Brad Bird would go on and admit a ripping like that.
So not only is it original research, you're admitting the unlikeliness that
there even *is* a citation you don't know about.
I suspect if you had a paragraph starting "The Incredibles shares a striking
number of plot elements with Watchmen," and you took it out of the
"inspiration" part, it might fly. But "inspiration" isn't about how many
plot points it shares. It's about the thought processes of the author.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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nemesis wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:07:34 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> Darren New wrote:
>>>> nemesis wrote:
>>>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>>>> to Watchmen
>>>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>>>> similar.
>>>>
>>>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>>>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>>>> minimum.
>>> How could he not be aware of this classic? You know Alan Moore was
>>> featured in a Simpsons episode? You know Brad Bird was creative
>>> consultant to the Simpsons? No, I don't know if the episode is from
>>> before or after he left, what I do know is:
>>>
>>> * a super-hero world where heroes are banned is by itself a very
>>> non-conventional plot for a super-hero story (at least until Watchmen
>>> got it done)
>>> * the plot is kicked off when an older hero goes missing (and is found
>>> to be dead)
>>> * the villain threatens the world with a fake attack so that he can be
>>> "heroic"
>>> * the threat is a huge, monocular monster with tentacles * the monster
>>> was raised in a remote Island * the dead hero was killed because of what
>>> the plans he uncovered in the Island
>>> * cape is bad for your health
>>>
>>> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
>>
>> Get your fork out, apparently it isn't. There's nothing
>> *substantiated* there, just a bunch of guesses.
>>
>> Star Wars, The Belgariad, and Dune, and Magician:Apprentice (and its
>> sequels) all have a common plot - the world is in trouble and then
>> saved by a messiah character. That doesn't mean they were inspired by
>> the Bible (or that any of their authors read the Bible or were even
>> inspired by it).
>
> Did you actually read what I wrote. It's not a generic set of plot
> points, they are very specific and "awkward" set of plot points
> identical in both works.
>
> You may not be aware of it, but Watchmen is a very known super-hero
> classic. It was also the only comic book in Time magazine's list of 100
> most significant XX century books.
actually, a list of top 100 all-time English-language novels.
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nemesis wrote:
> somebody wrote:
>> If there's no hard evidence or prior research, your option is to publish
>> your analysis somewhere respectable, and then add it to Wikipedia.
>
> So, those very distinct and unconventional plot points I listed offer
> absolutely no evidence at all?
THAT ISN'T THE POINT!
They *are* evidence. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But it's ORIGINAL
RESEARCH. *You* calculated the probability that Watchmen serves as an
inspiration to Bird. It's not something Bird said. It's not something where
your analysis appears anywhere outside of Wikipedia. That isn't how an
encyclopedia works.
I wouldn't be surprised if Bird himself went in and wrote that he was
inspired by Watchmen, and the comment was removed for the same reason.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> nemesis wrote:
>>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>>> to Watchmen
>>>
>>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>>> similar.
>>>
>>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>>> minimum.
>>
>> How could he not be aware of this classic?
>
> It doesn't matter. If you assert Bird was inspired, you would need to
> give a reference to it.
Yes, I gave a reference to it. The plot of Watchmen. Which seemingly
no one read from the wikipedia entry, neither you nor the wikipedia
moderators.
>> what I do know is:
>
> ... a whole list of things which have nothing to do with Bird or his
> thought processes.
But which has a lot to do with the result of his thought processes.
> Did you figure this link out yourself? Or did you read about it somewhere?
I heard about it before. Then now I finally read the graphic novel and
it indeed is as it is. Except gritty and mature rather than a, well,
comic parody.
> If the former, it's original research. If the latter, provide the
> citation. It seems pretty easy to me. :-)
There's no citation. There's a plot which is similar in both works,
down to every relevant detail.
Forget it, perhaps because of my alias you guys just love to have an
argument with me whatever the reason. If I came here and said: "Hey,
just watched Watchmen and it is a bland copycat of Pixar's The
Incredibles" you'd all be picking up a fight on how the venerable and
influential graphic novel was here eons before Pixar was even known...
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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> somebody wrote:
>>> If there's no hard evidence or prior research, your option is to publish
>>> your analysis somewhere respectable, and then add it to Wikipedia.
>>
>> So, those very distinct and unconventional plot points I listed offer
>> absolutely no evidence at all?
>
> THAT ISN'T THE POINT!
>
> They *are* evidence. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But it's ORIGINAL
> RESEARCH. *You* calculated the probability that Watchmen serves as an
> inspiration to Bird. It's not something Bird said.
Bird will not say that. He'll say he's taken the idea from his own
family. Like it is said in the wikipedia entry. Yeah, right on the
mark: banned heroes, heroes being hunted and eliminated, a villain
posing of hero by a fake attack with a gigantic monster... all pretty
familiar scenes. The kind of thing one can expect from liars.
So, another guy above was telling that Star Wars, Matrix and others have
all pretty generic plots revolving around religious themes. How can he
know that? Did he see George Lucas ever telling it??
yes, that's sarcasm. And that's by abstracting the whole plot down to
the very generic core. One does not need to do that to see the
similarities in the plots of Watchmen and The Incredibles.
It's not needed that the author spells it out plainly so that one can
see parodies. For instance, Wall-e parodies 2001 in the ship computer
resembling HAL. Was it needed for Wall-e's author to spell it out? No,
one only needs to known there was a movie 2001 and a computer called HAL
with a large recognizable eletronic eye. Fact is: you guys don't know
Watchmen -- nor care about reading the plot details -- and can't see how
frakking similar it is to the plot of The Incredibles.
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