>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
> 
> You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace, 
> but we actually do exist.

I sometimes start to wonder....

>> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
>> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
>> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
> 
> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.

If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.

> You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you sure 
> don't sound like you're failing there.

As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms 
of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it 
doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with 
the people there to start with.

> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a 
> failure to me.

Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. (And 
let's face it, the whole point of spending months learning to play 
something is so that when you play it, people will do "wow, that's awsome!")

> I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about 
> meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time.  Have you 
> gotten together with them again?  Have you suggested maybe going for 
> drinks and a visit?

Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me 
at the minute.

> As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks?  If I 
> worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your 
> office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how 
> many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for.  Hell, I *did* 
> that.

Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of 
motivation. It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something 
when failure is 100% guaranteed. Nobody wants the skills I have. 
(Assuming I even have them and I'm not just kidding myself.) Jayne was 
telling me her husband hasn't had any work for months now - and he has 
actual talent. If the talented people can't get work, what chance does 
some loser like me stand?

Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable 
job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. I can 
apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until 
I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. Or I can sit and do nothing for 3 
hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the 
difference. Motivation, much?

> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for 
> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with 
> management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually 
> found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen 
> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I was 
> absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I nearly 
> did at that).

What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we 
already know that.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 02 May 2009 09:56:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>> 
>> You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
>> but we actually do exist.
> 
> I sometimes start to wonder....

Because of course all the hours we spend writing to you don't mean 
anything?  I've said it before, I don't talk to people I don't like.  
From what I've read of yours, I like you.  Why do you find that so 
difficult to believe?

>>> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
>>> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
>>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
>>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
>>> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
>> 
>> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
> 
> If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.

And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside your 
own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made 
significant progress in the last year.

>> You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you
>> sure don't sound like you're failing there.
> 
> As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
> of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
> doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
> the people there to start with.

That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about 
interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly a 
failure.

>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a
>> failure to me.
> 
> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. 

Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important 
thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.

> (And
> let's face it, the whole point of spending months learning to play
> something is so that when you play it, people will do "wow, that's
> awsome!")

Having played the violin myself for 15+ years, I can tell you that's not 
the only point of learning to play a piece of music.  I won't say that 
that's not part of the motivation - performance is fun and nerve-wracking 
all at the same time.

But the last times I've had my violin out were for myself - it helped me 
relax and concentrate on the writing I was doing.

>> I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about
>> meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time.  Have
>> you gotten together with them again?  Have you suggested maybe going
>> for drinks and a visit?
> 
> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
> at the minute.

Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact 
you?  If you haven't said anything to them, they may be wondering what's 
wrong with THEM.

>> As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks?  If I
>> worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your
>> office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how
>> many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for.  Hell, I
>> *did* that.
> 
> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
> motivation. 

Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't 
really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest 
motivating factors for people.

> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
> when failure is 100% guaranteed. 

It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's for 
sure.  Especially in a contracting economy, jobs don't exactly fall out 
of the sky.

> Nobody wants the skills I have.

Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for 
your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.

> (Assuming I even have them and I'm not just kidding myself.) Jayne was
> telling me her husband hasn't had any work for months now - and he has
> actual talent. If the talented people can't get work, what chance does
> some loser like me stand?

Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not 
just give up.

> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. 

Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what you 
are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't even try.

How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a 
little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for someone 
with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement - that's one that 
unless you have the degree, you don't meet the requirements for.  But 
systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those are jobs you could do.  
But you give up before you even apply, and you need to STOP doing that.

> I can
> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
> I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. 

Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.  
Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET 
OUT.

> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
> difference. Motivation, much?

How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation?  How 
truly intolerable is it?

>> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
>> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
>> management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually
>> found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
>> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I
>> was absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I
>> nearly did at that).
> 
> What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
> already know that.

<sigh>  Are you intentionally missing my point?  It's called a parable - 
using an example to explain something.

My point is that I didn't give up and I found something good - and that's 
what you need to do.  Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got 
to put some effort into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you 
like, but if where you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should 
be enough motivation to keep up the search.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> (Perhaps excessively so.) It's just that for the most part, my life is a 
> failure, so usually I'm pessimistic.

FAIL

What is it to live a successful life?  Certainly not like Hollywood 
pictures it -- money, cars and beautiful women all over -- because by 
those standards everyone's life is pretty miserable by contrast... 
living a successful life should be about having a good time while you're 
here at Earth.  One day you'll simply vanish and all your concerns about 
social inadequacies will turn moot anyway. :)

BTW, if you're really desperate for a job change, how about actually 
*showing* it?  You send your curriculum every time and never receives a 
positive answer, so why not act _truly desperate_ with your possible 
employer?  Intimidate him with your despair and see how it goes. :D

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for 
> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.

Well, then you can go frak yourself!

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 02 May 2009 09:56:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
>>> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
>>> management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually
>>> found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
>>> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I
>>> was absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I
>>> nearly did at that).
>> What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
>> already know that.
> 
> <sigh>  Are you intentionally missing my point?  It's called a parable - 
> using an example to explain something.

Forget it.  He enjoys feeling miserable.  Could start enjoying vodka as 
well, nice complement. ;)

Post a reply to this message

>>>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>>>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>>> You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
>>> but we actually do exist.
>> I sometimes start to wonder....
> 
> Because of course all the hours we spend writing to you don't mean 
> anything?  I've said it before, I don't talk to people I don't like.  
> From what I've read of yours, I like you.  Why do you find that so 
> difficult to believe?

I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen, 
it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other 
end.

>>> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
>> If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.
> 
> And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside your 
> own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made 
> significant progress in the last year.

You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any kind.

I spent months learning Widor's Toccata. But every time I put some 
effort in, I could *see* some progress - and that was really motivating. 
But in almost every other sphere of my life, expending unbounded amounts 
of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is 
*extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not 
doing any good?

>>> You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you
>>> sure don't sound like you're failing there.
>> As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
>> of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
>> doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
>> the people there to start with.
> 
> That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about 
> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly a 
> failure.

I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey, 
it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.

>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a
>>> failure to me.
>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. 
> 
> Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important 
> thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.

It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll 
actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.

>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>> at the minute.
> 
> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact 
> you?

I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely 
turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe 
happening when I talk to them.

>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
>> motivation. 
> 
> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't 
> really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest 
> motivating factors for people.

I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger 
motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just 
seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all 
I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life, 
and there's nothing I can do about it.

If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job 
interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me 
a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses. 
And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even 
interviewed anybody else.)

>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
>> when failure is 100% guaranteed. 
> 
> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's for 
> sure.

I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally 
reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I 
wasted hours searching Monster and sending out applications. Heck, I 
even got my dad to drive me round the city center to find every 
employment agency in the place and give out copies of my CV.

You know where it got me? Nowhere. Hell, the last place I applied to, I 
spent hours carefully filling out their online application form, and 
they rejected me in less than 120 seconds. No *way* did a human being 
look at my application. Either there was never a vacancy in the first 
place, or it was rejected by a machine because some vital keyword was 
missing.

>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
> 
> Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for 
> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.

Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company 
that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does 
it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)

> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not 
> just give up.

I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so 
soul-destroying.

>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. 
> 
> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what you 
> are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't even try.

I don't think that's the main problem.

Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have 
titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and 
"development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.

Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job, 
the description says something like "you will drive half way across the 
country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you 
produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then 
imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave 
until the application is finished and working to the customer's 
satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.

And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of 
commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of 
them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part 
of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be 
useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody 
who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do 
C++ right now?

I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't 
find them...

It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.

> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a 
> little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for someone 
> with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement - that's one that 
> unless you have the degree, you don't meet the requirements for.  But 
> systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those are jobs you could do.  
> But you give up before you even apply, and you need to STOP doing that.

I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title 
that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second 
only to "tax man".

The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related 
to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a 
Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email 
XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either 
I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for 
the spot.

Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's 
feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible 
either.

It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and 
thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I 
just can't get traction!

>> I can
>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
>> I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. 
> 
> Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.  
> Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET 
> OUT.

And how many job adverts give you a phone number?

They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you 
for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence ensues.

>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>> difference. Motivation, much?
> 
> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation?  How 
> truly intolerable is it?

> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got 
> to put some effort into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you 
> like, but if where you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should 
> be enough motivation to keep up the search.

I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in. 
It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still 
didn't work.

I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and 
motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely 
nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all 
is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because, 
fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.

Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it 
another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine 
I'll have much success...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 03 May 2009 11:49:12 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen,
> it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other
> end.

Well, believe it. :-)

>> And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside
>> your own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made
>> significant progress in the last year.
> 
> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
> kind.

That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of 
reference.  Other people experience this as well.

> of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is
> *extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not
> doing any good?

Because it is doing good - just because you can't see it doesn't mean it 
isn't happening.

Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know 
that progress is being made.

>> That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about
>> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly
>> a failure.
> 
> I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey,
> it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.

See?  That's what I'm talking about.

>>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like
>>>> a failure to me.
>>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much.
>> 
>> Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important
>> thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.
> 
> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.

And you've been at it how long?  Learning to play music takes years of 
practice.  You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started 
learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the 
field.   It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons 
that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.

I'm not saying that to demotivate you, though I recognise that might be 
one effect of what I'm saying.  Things like dancing and playing a musical 
instrument take years and years of dedicated study to do extremely well.  
That doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, though, or that people 
won't be impressed by what you've accomplished.  And for what it's worth, 
I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand 
when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two 
left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of 
those things is something that I find impressive.

>>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>>> at the minute.
>> 
>> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact
>> you?
> 
> I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely
> turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe
> happening when I talk to them.

Well, if that's the case, then move on, it's not possible to be liked by 
everyone.  I know I'm positively hated by some people, and others find me 
awkward to be around.  It took years of looking to find a team to work 
with where I get along with nearly everyone.  And I just found out that 
one of my favourite people on the team was let go last week. :-(

>>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack
>>> of motivation.
>> 
>> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't
>> really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest
>> motivating factors for people.
> 
> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
> and there's nothing I can do about it.

Just keep trying.  Like I said before, if you don't try to find something 
else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the 
rest of your life.  That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out 
there.

But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too - 
including looking in other parts of the country.  You drive almost 2.5 
hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about 
the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton 
Keynes, and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently 
afford a flat of your own (or finding one with a roommate at least to get 
started).  But if you find a job that's 100 miles away from where you 
are, make sure they know that you'll need relocation and a salary that 
affords you the ability to actually move in somewhere.

People all over the world get jobs that afford housing, and you've got to 
start somewhere.  Using myself as an example again (because I know my own 
story best), first job out of college I made about what you're making now 
(and that included a fair bit of overtime pay), and I lived in my 
parent's basement.  15 years ago, I attended a conference here in Utah 
(which is about 1500 miles away from where I grew up, and I knew only one 
person who actually lived here - and had only met him online).  He 
arranged an interview for me with a company he knew was looking for 
someone with my skills.  I went on the interview while here at the 
conference, and I got lucky enough to get what turned out to be the worst 
job in my life (this is the one I was forced to resign from, you know the 
story).  But it paid almost double what I was making back in Minneapolis, 
and made it possible for me to afford a place to live.

> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
> interviewed anybody else.)

That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.

>>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something when
>>> failure is 100% guaranteed.
>> 
>> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's
>> for sure.
> 
> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]

And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current 
version.

Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?  
Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort 
of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of 
professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.

I've been quite amazed at how many people I know are there and the 
possibilities are pretty interesting.  I didn't know, for example, that I 
know people who know people in the film industry.  If I were looking for 
a job today, I'd definitely start tehre.

>>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
>> 
>> Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for
>> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.
> 
> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)

And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then 
you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.

Actually, your experience in using your dad's connection to the place you 
work now is one of the more common ways of finding a job - not 
necessarily your parents' connections (though that does work - my own dad 
got his job because of his dad's work with the company, and he spent 30+ 
years working there.  He got the job back just after World War II and 
retired in 1981).

There are people here who would no doubt add you to their professional 
networks.  While the link from you to me (for example) may not in and of 
itself yield a job, my connections to others may well do that.

>> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not
>> just give up.
> 
> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
> soul-destroying.

And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?  Like I said, you've 
got to keep trying.  Yes it can be disheartening.  The 3 months I spent 
unemployed, I ended up sleeping most of the time.  Trust me, I know what 
the experience is like.  I was depressed for most of that 3 months, and 
there's nothing that can make you feel more helpless than the prospect of 
losing your home and being unemployed.  You don't have a corner on that 
market.

>>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to.
>> 
>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>> even try.
> 
> I don't think that's the main problem.

That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.

> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.

Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those 
other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.

> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.

You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that 
customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case.  You just 
think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many 
different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is 
the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.

It's not, and you need to recognise that.

> And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of
> commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of
> them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part
> of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
> C++ right now?

Many reasons.  The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money 
than the company can afford.  Posted job requirements (like the "demand" 
for 3 years experience) are flexible.  Part of what they count on is 
people who don't meet the "real" requirements not applying and taking 
exactly the attitude you are taking.  Sometimes they mean it, but 
sometimes they don't.  The only way to find out is to ask.  If you have 
something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.

A lot of jobs I've had "required" a degree, which I don't have.  But I 
got the job - because I had what they needed.

> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
> find them...
> 
> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.

Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this 
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least then 
you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".

>> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a
>> little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for
>> someone with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement -
>> that's one that unless you have the degree, you don't meet the
>> requirements for.  But systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those
>> are jobs you could do. But you give up before you even apply, and you
>> need to STOP doing that.
> 
> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
> only to "tax man".

There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every 
systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the 
belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said 
"you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with 
relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can 
understand."

> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
> the spot.

You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm 
really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position 
still available?"

Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not go 
for people who ask once and then give up.

> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
> either.

Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here - 
people who have a lot more experience in getting into that than I (as I 
have basically none), so I'll let them comment on this if they like.

> It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and
> thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I
> just can't get traction!

Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.

>>> I can
>>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait
>>> until I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming.
>> 
>> Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.
>> Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET
>> OUT.
> 
> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
> 
> They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you
> for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence
> ensues.

The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do some 
research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?  Find 
one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.  
Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but 
some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the 
position.

Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front 
door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who 
knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.

>>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>>> difference. Motivation, much?
>> 
>> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation? 
>> How truly intolerable is it?
> 
>> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got to put some effort
>> into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you like, but if where
>> you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should be enough
>> motivation to keep up the search.
> 
> I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in.
> It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still
> didn't work.
> 
> I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and
> motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely
> nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all
> is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because,
> fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.

There you go again, discounting the people you write to up here.  You're 
not alone, you have the support of several people here.

And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they 
weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's 
their loss.

> Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it
> another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine
> I'll have much success...

Well, like I said before, the pessimist can be pleasantly surprised, the 
optimist will be disappointed.

Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if you 
don't, you gave it your all.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>> kind.
> 
> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of 
> reference.  Other people experience this as well.

OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in 
the last year then?

> Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know 
> that progress is being made.

See above.

>> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
>> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.
> 
> And you've been at it how long?

Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20 
years now.

> Learning to play music takes years of 
> practice.  You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started 
> learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the 
> field.   It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons 
> that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.

Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75% 
of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get 
significantly better now.

> And for what it's worth, 
> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand 
> when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two 
> left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of 
> those things is something that I find impressive.

Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.

>> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
>> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
>> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
>> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
>> and there's nothing I can do about it.
> 
> Just keep trying.  Like I said before, if you don't try to find something 
> else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the 
> rest of your life.  That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out 
> there.

Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to 
find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you 
accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational person.)

> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too - 
> including looking in other parts of the country.

Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even 
know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd 
actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.

>  You drive almost 2.5
> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about 
> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton 
> Keynes

Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop* 
doing.

> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently 
> afford a flat of your own.

Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat 
than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap 
flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)

>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
>> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
>> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
>> interviewed anybody else.)
> 
> That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.

It's the only performance measurement I have.

>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]
> 
> And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current 
> version.

Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which 
I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the 
amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up 
with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should 
do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)

> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?  
> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort 
> of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of 
> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.

Um... I don't know anybody?

>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
>> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
> 
> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then 
> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.

Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and 
demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do 
something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing 
nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other 
area of my life, BTW.)

>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>> soul-destroying.
> 
> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?

Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot 
of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a 
cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of 
depression.)

>>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>>> even try.
>> I don't think that's the main problem.
> 
> That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.
> 
>> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
>> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
>> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.
> 
> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those 
> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.

Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at 
programming in my entire life?

It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure, 
I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to 
follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.

What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those 
jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.

>> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
>> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
>> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
>> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
>> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
>> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
>> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.
> 
> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that 
> customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case.  You just 
> think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many 
> different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is 
> the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.
> 
> It's not, and you need to recognise that.

Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.

In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver 
tree. :-P

Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly 
abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a 
salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management 
consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to 
write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that 
utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills 
I don't have?

>> Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
>> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
>> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
>> C++ right now?
> 
> Many reasons.  The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money 
> than the company can afford.  Posted job requirements (like the "demand" 
> for 3 years experience) are flexible.  Sometimes they mean it, but 
> sometimes they don't.  The only way to find out is to ask.  If you have 
> something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.

Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with 
programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms 
they want.

>> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
>> find them...
>>
>> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.
> 
> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this 
> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least then 
> you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".

I have been looking for quite some time though.

>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>> only to "tax man".
> 
> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every 
> systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the 
> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said 
> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with 
> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can 
> understand."

No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually 
involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no 
support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital 
item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you 
when you do get something right." No thanks...

>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
>> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
>> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
>> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
>> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
>> the spot.
> 
> You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm 
> really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position 
> still available?"
> 
> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not go 
> for people who ask once and then give up.

I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a 
troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.

>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
>> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
>> either.
> 
> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here - 

Never reached much of a conclusion though.

> Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
> crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.

When? After 20 years or something?

>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>
> 
> The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do some 
> research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?

Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you 
could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the 
money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to 
selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.

> Find 
> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.  
> Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but 
> some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the 
> position.
> 
> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front 
> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who 
> knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.

I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days 
to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a 
nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.

> And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they 
> weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's 
> their loss.

See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire 
world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?

> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if you 
> don't, you gave it your all.

Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so 
uplifting. :-/

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 03 May 2009 19:34:43 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>>> kind.
>> 
>> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of
>> reference.  Other people experience this as well.
> 
> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
> the last year then?

You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up 
dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total 
strangers.

This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped 
into my head.

> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
> years now.

You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?

> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
> significantly better now.

Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.

>> And for what it's worth,
>> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left
>> hand when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to
>> two left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both
>> of those things is something that I find impressive.
> 
> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.

Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool" 
doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.  I personally 
don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at 
something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it 
sincerely.

> Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to
> find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you
> accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational
> person.)

If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my 
circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.

When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop 
looking.  The world's a big place, and until you've exhausted all the 
possibilities (and I mean *all* of them), don't assume it doesn't exist.  
Your problem is in your assumptions.

>> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too -
>> including looking in other parts of the country.
> 
> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.

How many times did you contact them?

>>  You drive almost 2.5
>> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about
>> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to
>> Milton Keynes
> 
> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
> doing.

There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move 
your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work 
nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2 
has to be a consideration.

>> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently afford a
>> flat of your own.
> 
> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)

Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not 
the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be very 
popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.  You 
might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell 
properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as 
well.

>>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got
>>> me a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the
>>> bosses. And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they
>>> even interviewed anybody else.)
>> 
>> That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.
> 
> It's the only performance measurement I have.

Mate, if I spent my entire life looking back at my failures (which are 
many, let's start with not finishing school), I'd never have got 
anywhere.  Stop worrying about the "performance measurement" and work 
towards making the change.

Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?

>>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I
>>> [...]
>> 
>> And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current
>> version.
> 
> Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which
> I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the
> amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up
> with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should
> do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)

There's always room for improvement, yes.  The last one I saw here looked 
pretty good to me as well as I recall.

>> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?
>> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this
>> sort of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of
>> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.
> 
> Um... I don't know anybody?

You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect 
(hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the connections 
one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most 
interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to those connections.

>>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them,
>>> does it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
>> 
>> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then
>> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.
> 
> Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and
> demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do
> something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing
> nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other
> area of my life, BTW.)

Have you tried asking others about nonconventional ways of meeting people 
and networking for work?  Don't say you don't know anybody - there's a 
bunch of people here you "know" (in the online sense) and whom you've met 
in real life a few times.

>>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>>> soul-destroying.
>> 
>> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?
> 
> Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot
> of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a
> cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of
> depression.)

Beats being employed? ;-)  (Go ahead, laugh...it's funny).  Searching for 
a new job eventually will give you a new job.  It takes time, sometimes a 
lot of time.

>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
> 
> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
> programming in my entire life?

Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their 
professional life.  When I got my current job (as a testing program 
manager), I had absolutely no experience at IT testing.  That didn't 
prohibit me from getting the job (in fairness, I didn't apply for it, it 
was thrust upon me).  When I took my first job running the computer 
network at my uni, I had no experience with computer networking 
whatsoever.

> It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure,
> I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to
> follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.

No, but at the same time, those architects didn't instantly obtain the 
experience that put them in the job they're in.  They started by first 
learning about architecture and how physical structures are built.  Then 
they worked with other architects to build their first structures.  And 
today, guess what, they *still* work with a team and not on their own 
when it comes to building major structures.

Why?

Because nobody on the team has enough experience and knowledge to account 
for every piece of the structure.

That's what a team is and does.

Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with 
the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?

> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.

Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly 
used term.  Permute the search terms.

>> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is
>> that customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case. 
>> You just think it is because that's your only experience, and like in
>> so many different parts of your life, you make the leap that your
>> experience is the only possible experience and that that's just the way
>> the world works.
>> 
>> It's not, and you need to recognise that.
> 
> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
> 
> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
> tree. :-P

I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable 
expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.

And often times, I take the unreasonable ones and make them be reasonable.

A lot of times, customers start out at the "unreasonable" end of the 
scale because they recognise that if they start at the "reasonable" end 
of the scale, getting what they want is unlikely.  So they start out 
being unreasonable with the expectation that they will be negotiated to 
"reasonable".

It's like buying a car here in the US.  The dealer starts at a price that 
gives him a very good commission and some customers are going to just 
accept it and pay the price.

Some are going to negotiate that down.

Now if the dealer asks for the sticker price, he's not likely to get a 
good commission, is he?  Why?  Because the sticker price doesn't include 
a high commission.

It's called "negotiation".  People often ask for far more than they 
expect to get as a means of getting what they do expect to get.  If you 
start at what you expect to get, then often times you end up getting less.

> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
> I don't have?

10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing 
position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.

It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people 
effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which 
was a real shock and surprise.

Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're good 
at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your preconceived 
notions.

> Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with
> programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms
> they want.

Or possibly that the market isn't flooded but with the economy being 
down, they're using fewer people to do the same job.  Eventually that 
stops working and they will need to hire more programmers.  You are 
correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point 
(my company just did a layoff as the end of our second quarter, in 
fact).  But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need 
to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might 
otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.

Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be 
the first to put a number on the table.  When I came to my current 
employer 6 years ago, I took a pay cut.  I walked in knowing that I would 
probably have to take one, and knowing what my bottom line was.  I asked 
about salary, the answer was "what are you making now?".  I told my then 
future boss, and he said "I can't do that".  I told him to give me a 
number and I'd tell him if it was good enough; he did, and it was within 
the range I wanted.

The first year, they made the difference up.

Point is, I let them dictate the terms and while I took a pay cut, I (a) 
got to work with technologies I wanted to work with, and (b) I ultimately 
got what I wanted in terms of pay.  I had to wait less than 12 months.

>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least
>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
> 
> I have been looking for quite some time though.

When did you last actively look?

>>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>>> only to "tax man".
>> 
>> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every
>> systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the
>> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said
>> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with
>> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can
>> understand."
> 
> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
> when you do get something right." No thanks...

Again, your experience is based on one company.  I am telling you that 
while there are places like that, not all places are.  That's not 
hyperbole, that's based on my actual real-world experience.  Just because 
you haven't had the fortune to have that kind of experience doesn't mean 
it doesn't happen.

>>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work
>>> related to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde
>>> wanted a Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more
>>> information, email XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever
>>> receive a reply. Either I'm just that infamous or there's that many
>>> other people fighting for the spot.
>> 
>> You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey,
>> I'm really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the
>> position still available?"
>> 
>> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not
>> go for people who ask once and then give up.
> 
> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.

Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though - 
did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response, 
or did you follow up?

>>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if
>>> it's feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be
>>> possible either.
>> 
>> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here
>> -
> 
> Never reached much of a conclusion though.
> 
>> Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
>> crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.
> 
> When? After 20 years or something?

It pays off when it pays off.  And when it does, things will change.  
Until then, don't give up - if you give up, then things are guaranteed to 
not change.  You want change for the better, right?

>>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>>
>>>
>> The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do
>> some research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?
> 
> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.

Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry classified 
ads?

I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly 
regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't just 
recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.

>> Find
>> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR
>> department. Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal
>> process", but some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm
>> about taking the position.
>> 
>> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front
>> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had
>> who knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.
> 
> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.

The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.  Hey, you gained 
the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said 
earlier, that's progress.  As you do more of it, you'll get more 
confident at it.  Yes, I know that's counterintuitive and your way of 
thinking will lead you to "more failure will make me more confident? 
WTF?"  It's the practice in talking with people.

>> And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they
>> weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's
>> their loss.
> 
> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?

Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.  So if they 
turn you down and they haven't take the time to get to know you better, 
then they pretty much suck at knowing that you're the one they're really 
looking for.  You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn 
things.  Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then 
it's their loss.

>> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if
>> you don't, you gave it your all.
> 
> Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so
> uplifting. :-/

Harsh reality of the world:  Sometimes it's not enough.  But if you gave 
it your all and they didn't see that you're the person they need, then 
it's not your fault, it's theirs.  You can't control what other people 
do, and if they reject you when you are the right candidate for the job, 
then it really is their problem.  So you move on to the next opportunity, 
and the next, and the next, until someone recognises your skills.

Jim

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>> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
>> the last year then?
> 
> You are getting out more, spending time around people.  You've taken up 
> dancing classes.  You've started talking to people that are total 
> strangers.
> 
> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped 
> into my head.

Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing 
classes I did last year...

I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but 
it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside" 
easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter 
entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort 
I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)

>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>> years now.
> 
> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?

I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been 
playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.

>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
>> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>> significantly better now.
> 
> Nonsense.  World class musicians improve their technique every day.

I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get 
*significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a 
virtuoso organist or something.)

>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
> 
> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool" 
> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.

That's what it feels like.

> I personally 
> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at 
> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it 
> sincerely.

Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of 
lame.

> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my 
> circumstances.  If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.

You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.

During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not 
trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It 
doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now, 
logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but 
it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life 
experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to 
you to encourage you.)

> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop 
> looking.

Makes sense...

>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
>> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
> 
> How many times did you contact them?

Only once. They're not deaf.

>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
>> doing.
> 
> There are really two options:  Find something closer to home, or move 
> your home.  Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work 
> nearer to home.  If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2 
> has to be a consideration.

I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen 
that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.

(On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder 
for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)

>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
> 
> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not 
> the best person to advise.  However the words "To Let" seem to be very 
> popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.  You 
> might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell 
> properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as 
> well.

I guess I'd have to investigate that one.

> Do you want the change?  If so, how badly do you want it?

Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra. 
Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick 
counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)

>> Um... I don't know anybody?
> 
> You'd be surprised.  Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect 
> (hendersj at gmail dot com).  Instant network.  It's not the connections 
> one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most 
> interesting.  You can get people to introduce you to those connections.

Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...

>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>> programming in my entire life?
> 
> Here's a news flash:  Everyone has been at this point in their 
> professional life.

Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no 
point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it up.

> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with 
> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?

No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.

>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
>> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
> 
> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly 
> used term.  Permute the search terms.

I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was 
some sort of management position. :-/

>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>
>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>> tree. :-P
> 
> I deal with customers every single day.  There are ones with reasonable 
> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.

Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your 
year, doesn't it.

>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
>> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
>> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
>> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
>> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
>> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
>> I don't have?
> 
> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing 
> position.  I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
> 
> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people 
> effectively.  And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which 
> was a real shock and surprise.
> 
> Don't be afraid to try new things.  You might just find that you're good 
> at it and that you like it.  But you have to set aside your preconceived 
> notions.

Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the 
things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what 
they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it 
20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good 
enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you 
and you will do as you're told, bitch!

At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to 
do, and they know when you've done it.

> You are 
> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point 
> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need 
> to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might 
> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.

I'm not sure I follow...

> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be 
> the first to put a number on the table.

Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his 
opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...

>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least
>>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
> 
> When did you last actively look?

If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time 
I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.

>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
>> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
>> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
>> when you do get something right." No thanks...
> 
> Again, your experience is based on one company.

I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF 
seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is 
ubiquitous in the IT industry.

> I am telling you that 
> while there are places like that, not all places are.

How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S

>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
> 
> Don't presume and don't assume.  You didn't answer my question, though - 
> did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response, 
> or did you follow up?

They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever 
happened. The end.

>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
>> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
> 
> Then don't go through the agency.  Does your local paper carry classified 
> ads?

Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and 
secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano 
tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right? 
But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing 
related to IT.

(Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh 
no, we don't do IT any more".)

> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly 
> regularly as well, and you know who the company is.  Companies don't just 
> recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.

Well, maybe.

>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
>> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
>> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
> 
> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.

False.

I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any 
easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find 
out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at 
you, which is almost as bad...

> Hey, you gained 
> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said 
> earlier, that's progress.

That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but sure.

>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
> 
> Not at all.  They don't know you as well as you know you.

I see...

> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn 
> things.  Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then 
> it's their loss.

Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the 
entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard 
to keep telling yourself that it's true.

If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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