On Sun, 03 May 2009 11:49:12 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen,
> it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other
> end.

Well, believe it. :-)

>> And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside
>> your own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made
>> significant progress in the last year.
> 
> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
> kind.

That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of 
reference.  Other people experience this as well.

> of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is
> *extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not
> doing any good?

Because it is doing good - just because you can't see it doesn't mean it 
isn't happening.

Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know 
that progress is being made.

>> That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about
>> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly
>> a failure.
> 
> I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey,
> it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.

See?  That's what I'm talking about.

>>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like
>>>> a failure to me.
>>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much.
>> 
>> Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important
>> thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.
> 
> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.

And you've been at it how long?  Learning to play music takes years of 
practice.  You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started 
learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the 
field.   It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons 
that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.

I'm not saying that to demotivate you, though I recognise that might be 
one effect of what I'm saying.  Things like dancing and playing a musical 
instrument take years and years of dedicated study to do extremely well.  
That doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, though, or that people 
won't be impressed by what you've accomplished.  And for what it's worth, 
I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand 
when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two 
left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of 
those things is something that I find impressive.

>>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>>> at the minute.
>> 
>> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact
>> you?
> 
> I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely
> turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe
> happening when I talk to them.

Well, if that's the case, then move on, it's not possible to be liked by 
everyone.  I know I'm positively hated by some people, and others find me 
awkward to be around.  It took years of looking to find a team to work 
with where I get along with nearly everyone.  And I just found out that 
one of my favourite people on the team was let go last week. :-(

>>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack
>>> of motivation.
>> 
>> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't
>> really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest
>> motivating factors for people.
> 
> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
> and there's nothing I can do about it.

Just keep trying.  Like I said before, if you don't try to find something 
else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the 
rest of your life.  That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out 
there.

But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too - 
including looking in other parts of the country.  You drive almost 2.5 
hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about 
the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton 
Keynes, and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently 
afford a flat of your own (or finding one with a roommate at least to get 
started).  But if you find a job that's 100 miles away from where you 
are, make sure they know that you'll need relocation and a salary that 
affords you the ability to actually move in somewhere.

People all over the world get jobs that afford housing, and you've got to 
start somewhere.  Using myself as an example again (because I know my own 
story best), first job out of college I made about what you're making now 
(and that included a fair bit of overtime pay), and I lived in my 
parent's basement.  15 years ago, I attended a conference here in Utah 
(which is about 1500 miles away from where I grew up, and I knew only one 
person who actually lived here - and had only met him online).  He 
arranged an interview for me with a company he knew was looking for 
someone with my skills.  I went on the interview while here at the 
conference, and I got lucky enough to get what turned out to be the worst 
job in my life (this is the one I was forced to resign from, you know the 
story).  But it paid almost double what I was making back in Minneapolis, 
and made it possible for me to afford a place to live.

> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
> interviewed anybody else.)

That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.

>>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something when
>>> failure is 100% guaranteed.
>> 
>> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's
>> for sure.
> 
> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]

And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current 
version.

Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?  
Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort 
of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of 
professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.

I've been quite amazed at how many people I know are there and the 
possibilities are pretty interesting.  I didn't know, for example, that I 
know people who know people in the film industry.  If I were looking for 
a job today, I'd definitely start tehre.

>>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
>> 
>> Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for
>> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.
> 
> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)

And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then 
you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.

Actually, your experience in using your dad's connection to the place you 
work now is one of the more common ways of finding a job - not 
necessarily your parents' connections (though that does work - my own dad 
got his job because of his dad's work with the company, and he spent 30+ 
years working there.  He got the job back just after World War II and 
retired in 1981).

There are people here who would no doubt add you to their professional 
networks.  While the link from you to me (for example) may not in and of 
itself yield a job, my connections to others may well do that.

>> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not
>> just give up.
> 
> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
> soul-destroying.

And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?  Like I said, you've 
got to keep trying.  Yes it can be disheartening.  The 3 months I spent 
unemployed, I ended up sleeping most of the time.  Trust me, I know what 
the experience is like.  I was depressed for most of that 3 months, and 
there's nothing that can make you feel more helpless than the prospect of 
losing your home and being unemployed.  You don't have a corner on that 
market.

>>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to.
>> 
>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>> even try.
> 
> I don't think that's the main problem.

That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.

> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.

Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those 
other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.

> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.

You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that 
customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case.  You just 
think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many 
different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is 
the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.

It's not, and you need to recognise that.

> And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of
> commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of
> them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part
> of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
> C++ right now?

Many reasons.  The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money 
than the company can afford.  Posted job requirements (like the "demand" 
for 3 years experience) are flexible.  Part of what they count on is 
people who don't meet the "real" requirements not applying and taking 
exactly the attitude you are taking.  Sometimes they mean it, but 
sometimes they don't.  The only way to find out is to ask.  If you have 
something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.

A lot of jobs I've had "required" a degree, which I don't have.  But I 
got the job - because I had what they needed.

> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
> find them...
> 
> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.

Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this 
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least then 
you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".

>> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a
>> little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for
>> someone with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement -
>> that's one that unless you have the degree, you don't meet the
>> requirements for.  But systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those
>> are jobs you could do. But you give up before you even apply, and you
>> need to STOP doing that.
> 
> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
> only to "tax man".

There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every 
systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the 
belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said 
"you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with 
relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can 
understand."

> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
> the spot.

You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm 
really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position 
still available?"

Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not go 
for people who ask once and then give up.

> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
> either.

Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here - 
people who have a lot more experience in getting into that than I (as I 
have basically none), so I'll let them comment on this if they like.

> It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and
> thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I
> just can't get traction!

Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.

>>> I can
>>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait
>>> until I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming.
>> 
>> Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.
>> Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET
>> OUT.
> 
> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
> 
> They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you
> for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence
> ensues.

The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do some 
research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?  Find 
one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.  
Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but 
some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the 
position.

Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front 
door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who 
knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.

>>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>>> difference. Motivation, much?
>> 
>> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation? 
>> How truly intolerable is it?
> 
>> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got to put some effort
>> into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you like, but if where
>> you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should be enough
>> motivation to keep up the search.
> 
> I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in.
> It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still
> didn't work.
> 
> I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and
> motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely
> nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all
> is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because,
> fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.

There you go again, discounting the people you write to up here.  You're 
not alone, you have the support of several people here.

And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they 
weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's 
their loss.

> Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it
> another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine
> I'll have much success...

Well, like I said before, the pessimist can be pleasantly surprised, the 
optimist will be disappointed.

Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if you 
don't, you gave it your all.

Jim

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