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scott wrote:
>> I also love people who go through an intersection and hit the person
>> that ran the red light - in plain view. Like you couldn't see someone
>> was going to hit you or you were going to hit someone.
>
> Depends on the intersection, sometimes you would have no chance of
> seeing someone coming from the side at 50mph until it was too late to
> take any avoiding action.
>
Yes, but then you have the perfectly clear view of a person sitting in
your way - and you aim for them.
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scott wrote:
>>> In the UK at least I see a lot of junctions where the instant one
>>> direction changes from amber to red, the other changes from red to
>>> red+amber.
>>
>> The delay is probably similar to red+amber.
>> Are you allowed to go on a red+amber?
>
> Not technically, but the phase is so short (usually 1 second or less) by
> the time you've actually started moving past the light it is on green
> anyway.
>
>> Yes and no - it depends on where you live. Some areas are really bad
>> - 10-15 seconds of red light running.
>
> Huh? What do the cars do that are on green? Here I see max. 1 second
> red light running, and even that is very rare.
>
The cars waiting on green just have to keep waiting.
>> I like that some places actually put in red light cameras - then it is
>> automatic with the ticket, not only when there is a cop around.
>
> Yeh a lot of them here too, although IMO they make the cameras too obvious.
>
What's the goal - to stop red light running or to give the most fines
possible?
You hide them to give tickets, you show them if you just want people to
stop.
Then the budget people come in - tighten the amber times so that we can
give more red light tickets so that we can fund our pension plan.
> Actually people do that here in Germany quite often when the traffic is
> slow, in fact there are even a few places with signs where it tells you
> to use the shoulder if you are turning off and traffic is slow. If
> traffic is really slow or stopped then people will often drive for kms
> on the shoulder to get off at the next exit. I sometimes wonder if any
> accidents are caused by this behaviour, like if someone is turning off
> and doesn't see someone else coming up on the shoulder, but everyone
> seems to have a similar understanding of what's going on.
>
I've seen this on regular roads with stop lights.
Actually, I could care less if people use the shoulder - especially in
the case you pointed out. When driving on the shoulder and going at
high speed along traffic that is almost stopped - that's asking for trouble.
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scott wrote:
>> I once made a safe stop at a red light.
>> I started to fiddle with the radio and started to hear tires squealing.
>> Next thing I know a guy blows past me sideways spinning into the
>> intersection.
>
> Oh wow, yeh at least he didn't just plough into the back of you.
>
I now keep an eye on traffic behind me when stopping at lights.
> I had a similar experience on my bike once, it was at some construction
> work and the light went red, so I stopped and was first in line. A
> split second later I see a cyclist (who must have been right behind me)
> come flying past me in the air pretty much separated from his bike. Once
> he'd picked himself up off the road and collected up his (now
> unrideable) bike, he said to me how stupid I was to stop at the light
> and I should have just gone through it like all the other cyclists!
>
>
Don't cyclists have to obey the traffic laws as well - I guess that's
the way of things. If someone does not do something you expect them to
do - it's your fault.
I've seen 1 or 2 accidents that were just that accidents.
But most of the accidents out there should be labeled stupidities -
because someone was doing something stupid and the 'accident' was
totally avoidable.
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>> Depends on the intersection, sometimes you would have no chance of seeing
>> someone coming from the side at 50mph until it was too late to take any
>> avoiding action.
>
> Yes, but then you have the perfectly clear view of a person sitting in
> your way - and you aim for them.
Even cars going at speeds like 20mph cover a distance like 5 metres (maybe
the distance from being hidden to being in the middle of the intersection)
in well under one second. I suspect if you're going 50mph and you see a car
crossing your path 0.5 seconds before you are about to hit it, there's not a
lot you can do, cars don't turn very sharply at 50mph.
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>> Huh? What do the cars do that are on green? Here I see max. 1 second red
>> light running, and even that is very rare.
>>
>
> The cars waiting on green just have to keep waiting.
Oh wow, that would never happen here, if it was a fast road there would
definitely be a load of accidents because the people on green would just go
without looking left&right very far, some would probably see you and drive
out anyway forcing you to do an emergency stop and crash into them.
Insurance would certainly blame the person for red light jumping no matter
what happened.
On a slower road the cars on green would just force their way over and force
the red-light runners to stop (this happens sometimes when the exit is
blocked and people get stuck in the middle and then try to go when it frees
up, forgetting that they don't have green anymore).
>> Yeh a lot of them here too, although IMO they make the cameras too
>> obvious.
>>
>
> What's the goal - to stop red light running or to give the most fines
> possible?
It seems to just stop people red-light running at certain junctions, and
they can tell which ones they need to stop at before they get to there. If
they hid them somehow you'd never know which ones had cameras so you'd have
to stop at all of them. The police could just announce "we've fitted red
light cameras under-cover to around 10% of intersections on a rotating
basis".
> I've seen this on regular roads with stop lights.
We don't usually have shoulders on regular roads, if there's space for a
shoulder it will be a proper lane.
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scott wrote:
>>> Depends on the intersection, sometimes you would have no chance of
>>> seeing someone coming from the side at 50mph until it was too late to
>>> take any avoiding action.
>>
>> Yes, but then you have the perfectly clear view of a person sitting in
>> your way - and you aim for them.
>
> Even cars going at speeds like 20mph cover a distance like 5 metres
> (maybe the distance from being hidden to being in the middle of the
> intersection) in well under one second. I suspect if you're going 50mph
> and you see a car crossing your path 0.5 seconds before you are about to
> hit it, there's not a lot you can do, cars don't turn very sharply at
> 50mph.
>
I agree, but a car sitting in an intersection for 5 seconds doesn't
count in this situation. - OK, it only counts if the person hitting him
actually got on the brakes.
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scott wrote:
> In the UK at least, the law says that you must not go over the white
> line that is painted across the road next to the signal, if it is on
> red.
In most states in the USA, if your car hasn't gotten across the *far*
white line when the light goes red, technically you're in the
intersection on a red light. As for what the cameras look for, I
couldn't say.
> Quite often though, people are driving above the speed limit, so the
> amber phase is maybe not long enough for them to have enough warning to
> stop, or to get over the line before it goes red. Their only option to
> avoid running a red is to speed up.
Yep, that happens too. When I was learning to drive (and sometimes still
now), I start thinking to myself "No, no, no, no, YES!" and making the
decision in advance whether I'll stop for a yellow or not. At least that
way, I'm either speeding up or slowing down, and not hesitating trying
to decide which I should do when I should already be acting. Not that I
always make the right decision, but usually.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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scott wrote:
> Huh? What do the cars do that are on green? Here I see max. 1 second
> red light running, and even that is very rare.
The other ones that bug me is when traffic is heavy, and instead of
leaving the intersection open enough, when the light's green, five cars
will pull into the middle of the three-lane-road intersection, just so
they can "get through the light." Of course, when the cross traffic
gets the green, the intersection is still full. So most people will
drive in front of the people already stuck and start blowing the horn.
Very helpful, that.
>> I like that some places actually put in red light cameras - then it is
>> automatic with the ticket, not only when there is a cop around.
>
> Yeh a lot of them here too, although IMO they make the cameras too obvious.
I think in the USA you'd get even worse constitutional challenges if the
camera was hidden. The whole excuse for putting the camera in is to
encourage people to slow down and not run the red-light. (We all know
it's really to collect money.)
> accidents are caused by this behaviour,
I'd be more worried that in the case of an accident, there's no way for
the emergency vehicles to get to the problem area, myself.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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> In most states in the USA, if your car hasn't gotten across the *far*
> white line when the light goes red, technically you're in the intersection
> on a red light.
Is that illegal then, to be *in* the intersection when the light you passed
on the way in is red? What happens if you are wanting to turn left and have
to wait until all the cars coming the opposite way have stopped on red - is
that illegal if your light has switched back to red? Or what if traffic is
moving slowly and you set off into the intersection on green, but then it
changes to red before you make it to the other side?
> Yep, that happens too. When I was learning to drive (and sometimes still
> now), I start thinking to myself "No, no, no, no, YES!" and making the
> decision in advance whether I'll stop for a yellow or not. At least that
> way, I'm either speeding up or slowing down, and not hesitating trying to
> decide which I should do when I should already be acting. Not that I
> always make the right decision, but usually.
Yeh I have that sometimes too, although usually it's just because I don't
want to break hard to stop in time, then I decide to keep going, but then I
realise it's going to be a bit risky and it might go red so I slam on the
brakes anyway!
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> The other ones that bug me is when traffic is heavy, and instead of
> leaving the intersection open enough, when the light's green, five cars
> will pull into the middle of the three-lane-road intersection, just so
> they can "get through the light."
Here you're not meant to enter the intersection unless your exit is clear
(or you can be sure it will be clear when you get there). ie you're not
meant to stop in the middle of the intersection, the only exception is if
you are turning across the oncoming traffic, where you are allowed to wait
in the middle.
> Of course, when the cross traffic gets the green, the intersection is
> still full. So most people will drive in front of the people already stuck
> and start blowing the horn.
How do they drive in front of the people stuck in the middle? Usually here
the idiots who block the intersection go as far forward as they can so it's
impossible to go in front of them, sometimes you have to weave around behind
them, particularly fun if it's more than one lane.
> I think in the USA you'd get even worse constitutional challenges if the
> camera was hidden.
Hehe, a hidden camera to catch people driving illegally? Bah no we can't
possibly have that - the people must know exactly which section of road they
have to drive legally on!
> I'd be more worried that in the case of an accident, there's no way for
> the emergency vehicles to get to the problem area, myself.
When there is no shoulder here you are meant to leave a gap between the two
lanes (ie you stop over the left side of the left lane, and over to the
right side of the right lane), that usually leaves plenty of gap for
emergency services to come through. Pretty sensible as some of the
remaining old autobahns here don't have a shoulder, also some of the newer
ones can be switched from a shoulder to a proper lane depending on the
traffic volume.
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