> Warp wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMzeiMJQrvk
> 
> I remember the news on this. It was exceptional conditions. It had 
> rained, frozen, snowed, rained, frozen again, something like that.
> 
> I'm pretty sure studded snow tires aren't going to make it safe to drive 
> if you get the kind of conditions that let the car slide sideways at a 
> sedate speed without slowing for fifty meters (like at 1:02 into the 
> video).
> 

I've read somewhere that this particular street was on a hill, although 
it doesn't really show in the video, which explains why the car 
continues sliding like that.

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   sympatico.ca  */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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John VanSickle wrote:
> 
> One of the biggest laughs I ever had was watching a news report of snow 
> in a part of California where snow falls once every two or three years. 
>  A car was coming up to a traffic light.  The light came on.  The brake 
> lights of the car came on very clearly and brightly.  The car continued 
> to move with the same speed and in the same direction.
> 

I remember my brother driving once and doing that very same thing.
Luckily the drivers from the crossing light didn't go until he slid 
through the intersection.


> I grew up in Michigan, which routinely gets a 30cm snowfall on at least 
> one night every winter, and more at other times throughout the year. 
> Even there the first snowfall of the year throws people for a loop 
> (because after seven months of not dealing with it, the skills get 
> rusty).  The Detroit area has one of the largest natural salt supplies 

I was in the Detriot area for one of those events.  It was funny, yet 
scary.  People were losing control on straight stretches.  I was puzzled 
until I was told about the first snow thing.


Tom

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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Jim Charter wrote:
>> P.S.
>> So I am teaching a Defensive Driving course a week or so back.  We get
>> to the topic of 'things that can cause collisions'  We are reviewing
>> 'environmental conditions that can cause collisions'  I am asking the
>> class about the road surface and what can make it slippery.  One guy
>> puts up his hand and very enthusiastically suggests 'banana peels?' He
>> was from either West Africa or West Indies. I honestly didn't know if he
>> was serious.  I try to fudge it.  "Man you're killing me.  Banana
>> peels?"  He got very offended.  Apparently he was serious.
> 
> If you happen to be following a certain truck down the hill that leads
> in to Scranton Pennsylvania, that could be a problem.

	What, having a guy from West Africa suggesting that a car can slip on a 
banana peel?

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And lo on Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:06:11 -0000, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> di
d  

spake, saying:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMzeiMJQrvk
>
>   I have heard that in many places in the US they don't even know abou
t
> the concept of winter tires (such as studded tires, which are used in
> Finland in winter), even at places where it snows. Seeing videos like
> this one seems to confirm this.
>
>   In some countries studded tires are prohibited by law (all year roun
d)
> because they wear the road faster. Well, I suppose it's better to have

> tons of car accidents than having to repave once in a while.

Exactly. To repave the road the state has to shut it down, redirect  

traffic, pay for the contractors and materials and the only thing they g
et  

back is indirect from any *possible* extra business having a nice road  

brings in to the local stores.

OTOH a good car crash still shuts down the road, but for a shorter perio
d  

of time; tow-trucks get paid from the insurance, scrap dealers get  

material, and HMOs fund any medical costs incurred at the local hospital
.

So repaving a road *might* generate income for the 'area', but car  

accidents always will.

Oh and yes I'm not being (totally) serious.

-- 

Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Warp wrote:
> 
>   In some countries studded tires are prohibited by law (all year round)
> because they wear the road faster. Well, I suppose it's better to have
> tons of car accidents than having to repave once in a while.
> 

Naturally you know (but everybody here don't) that studded tire and a 
winter tire are not 100% equal terms. There are also good winter tires 
on the market, which are not studded (ie. Nokian RSi, Bridgestone 
Blizzak etc).

One of the usual flamewars at sfnet newsgroups are studded vs. 
non-studded winter tires, I don't think we wan't to raise it here :p.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
    http://www.zbxt.net
       aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> I live a couple hundred miles away from the city where that video was 
> taken, assuming that the weather there is similar to here (and I believe 
> it is) I think part of the problem is that it generally snows there 
> between zero and a couple of times per year, and most of the time it's 
> only a an inch or two which melts before the day is done.  Thus it's not 
> really worthwhile buying snow tires, since it's only very rarely that it 
> snows enough that it would be at all useful (having a tire built for 
> rain would be much more important).  Anyone here form Portland who can 
> confirm / disagree with this?

I grew up in Seattle, but I'm currently living in Portland.

This year, we had snow four times.  Each time, we got less than an inch, 
and it melted within 2 hours.

Anyway, if you think that's bad, remember that at least they had the 
(poor) excuse of an icy road.  The driving here isn't much better in the 
rain (which is rather alarming, seeing as it rains here almost as much 
as in Seattle).

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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Warp wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMzeiMJQrvk
> 
>   I have heard that in many places in the US they don't even know about
> the concept of winter tires (such as studded tires, which are used in
> Finland in winter), even at places where it snows. Seeing videos like
> this one seems to confirm this.
> 
>   In some countries studded tires are prohibited by law (all year round)
> because they wear the road faster. Well, I suppose it's better to have
> tons of car accidents than having to repave once in a while.
> 

My personal feeling is that if conditions are bad enough that you need 
more than your regular tires, you should just be safe and throw on some 
chains.

Our first apartment was at the top of a rather steep hill.  I loved the 
feeling of calmly driving down the lane in the morning, grinning and 
waving at all the people who had been stupid enough to try going down 
without any extra traction - and there were at least two dozen cars on 
the side :)

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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Chambers <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:
> My personal feeling is that if conditions are bad enough that you need 
> more than your regular tires, you should just be safe and throw on some 
> chains.

  I have the feeling that chains wear out the road 100 times faster than
studs. Additionally they wear out the tires pretty fast, they don't allow
driving very fast (ie. you probably don't want to drive along a highway
with them), they make a lot of noise, and probably can't be used for very
long distances (like 100's of km).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Chambers wrote:
> 
> My personal feeling is that if conditions are bad enough that you need 
> more than your regular tires, you should just be safe and throw on some 
> chains.
> 

Chains should go well at extreme conditions on ice, but when you'll hit 
the tarmac or gravel (or even plain snow iirc), real winter tires can 
get you better grip. It's possible that we don't actually have the most 
extreme conditions here - at least often -, but I don't recall a single 
day from past 8 years (ie. while I've had a driver's license) that I'd 
even thinked of chains instead of winter tires.

Of course the suspension of the car itself makes a lot, too.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
    http://www.zbxt.net
       aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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>  I have heard that in many places in the US they don't even know about
> the concept of winter tires (such as studded tires, which are used in
> Finland in winter), even at places where it snows. Seeing videos like
> this one seems to confirm this.

A lot of them use "all-weather" tyres, which are better than summer tyres in 
winter, but not as good as proper winter tyres.  The benefit is you don't 
need to swap tyres twice a year, the disadvantage is the rubber is so hard 
that the grip is terrible compared to proper summer tyres in summer.  So 
long as everybody uses them and knows how grippy they are it shouldn't be a 
problem.

FWIW here in Germany we use winter/snow tyres, but not studded tyres.  The 
winter tyres help a lot in snow, but are just as useless as summer tyres on 
ice.  It looks in that video to be ice, only studs will help you there.

>  In some countries studded tires are prohibited by law (all year round)
> because they wear the road faster. Well, I suppose it's better to have
> tons of car accidents than having to repave once in a while.

Yes it is actually - repaving every single road "once in a while" would 
cause orders of magnitude more chaos than a few accidents when it's icy. 
Unless you live somewhere with snow and ice for *a lot* of the year, it's 
just not worth it.

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