On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:49:45 -0500, "Nathan Kopp" <Nat### [at] Koppcom>
wrote:

>Why?  Because "that's the way it's always been"?  That by itself is not a
>good reason.  (That reason, coupled with "users appreciate backwards
>compatibility and consistency", as Thorsten mentioned, is a pretty good
>reason, however.)
>

Speaking in general, the "backwards compatibility" flag is waved by
*someone* almost every time a change is suggested. I say if a
particular  change is for the better, then screw backwards
compatibility. If I have to change syntax on one of my older scene
files to accomodate a new version of POV, then so be it. I won't be
crying about it. I'll be too busy appreciating the new features or
improvements. I'd hope that most people have a similiar opinion. 

Please note that this post isn't concerning the ini_option issue. I
just want to express this opinion openly in regards to *any* change
that is being considered by the POV-Team, or any of the programmers
making custom patches. Please, don't ever be afraid to try something
new.

thanks,
Glen Berry

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I like it. Only I would set Width and Height and let
the program set the aspect. It would be overridden only
if you set the camera{ right } option.

Glen Berry wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 12:20:24 -0800, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> What if we could specify the scene Height and
> Aspect Ratio, instead of Height and Width? The Aspect Ratio would be
> set in the scene file, and you could set the Height from the command
> line or "povray.ini." That way, no matter what size you rendered a
> scene file at, it would have the proper aspect ratio. There would no
> longer be the need for checking the camera statement in each scene
> file before rendering, to determine the proper aspect ratio to
> indirectly set via the Height and Width settings. Does anyone like
> this idea?
> 
> later,
> Glen Berry

-- 
Mr. Art

"Often the appearance of reality is more important 
than the reality of the appearance."
Bill DeWitt 2000

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On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:34:42 +1030, PoD <pod### [at] merlinnetau> wrote:

>I've always considered it obvious that the scene file describes the
>_scene_ not the image.

Now, that statement could get rather philosophical!  :)

I wonder if, since it's strictly a description of the scene as you
say, should we remove the camera from the scene file? (Unless of
course, it actually appears in the scene as a reflected object or
something.)     <just kidding with you>

>Some kind of Allow_Scene_Ini_Options option strikes me as a good idea.

That would make me happy. 

If the POV-Team wants, it could be an option that is disabled by
default. Then only those users that really want it would be using it.
That would greatly reduce the potential support problems - if that is
the concern for them with this issue.

later,
Glen Berry

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On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:17:59 -0900, "mr.art" <mr.### [at] gcinet> wrote:

>I like it. Only I would set Width and Height and let
>the program set the aspect. It would be overridden only
>if you set the camera{ right } option.
>
You have me a bit confused here. If you are setting the Width and
Height of the image, then you have also set the aspect ratio of the
image as well. The program can't independently set the aspect ratio,
and also allow you to set both Height and Width at the same time. 

Perhaps you could explain this for me?

thanks,
Glen Berry

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Set width to 800, height to 600. Then set right to anything other
than 4/3*x and watch what happens. The image is stretched oddly.
So set the image to 800x450, leave right alone. The image is
stretched oddly. I would like to see povray try to keep the image
of a sphere round unless you tell it to do otherwise.

Glen Berry wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:17:59 -0900, "mr.art" <mr.### [at] gcinet> wrote:
> 
> >I like it. Only I would set Width and Height and let
> >the program set the aspect. It would be overridden only
> >if you set the camera{ right } option.
> >
> You have me a bit confused here. If you are setting the Width and
> Height of the image, then you have also set the aspect ratio of the
> image as well. The program can't independently set the aspect ratio,
> and also allow you to set both Height and Width at the same time.
> 
> Perhaps you could explain this for me?
> 
> thanks,
> Glen Berry

-- 
Mr. Art

"Often the appearance of reality is more important 
than the reality of the appearance."
Bill DeWitt 2000

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On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:06:03 -0900, "mr.art" <mr.### [at] gcinet> wrote:

>Set width to 800, height to 600. Then set right to anything other
>than 4/3*x and watch what happens. The image is stretched oddly.
>So set the image to 800x450, leave right alone. The image is
>stretched oddly. I would like to see povray try to keep the image
>of a sphere round unless you tell it to do otherwise.
>

In that case, my suggestion of specifying the aspect ratio in the
scene file, and *either*  Width or Height, but *not both* on the
command line (or povray.ini) would work. The image aspect ratio could
be set with the camera{right} statement. Then we only need to specify
*one* of the image dimensions on the command line. POV would calculate
the other dimension.

I'm not forgetting that some systems might not employ square pixels.
I'm also aware of the idea that some people might want to create
images that are "compressed" in one dimension. For those situations, I
propose that an option be created for the povray.ini file that
specifies the *pixel* aspect ratio. This could also be used on the
command line.

There is a definite practical advantage of having seperate variables
assigned for the aspect ratio of the output image, and a second
variable associated with the aspect ratio of an individual pixel. 

Yes, all of this can be achieved currently, but it is awkward to work
with multiple, image aspect ratios with the current system.

later,
Glen Berry

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Nathan Kopp <Nat### [at] koppcom> wrote:
:> : OTOH being able to determine the size of a picture at render time can be
:> : useful for special applications like automatic rendering of ttf fonts
:> : samples.
:>
:>   You don't need ini_option for this.

: How?  I think he's talking about using min_extent and max_extent so as to
: render only what is within the bounding box of the object.

  Sorry, I thought that "determine" means "get information about".

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Nathan Kopp <Nat### [at] koppcom> wrote:
:>   - The type of rendering (size, antialiasing, etc) should specified
: outside
:> the scene, not inside.

: Why?

  I said why in the part you didn't quote.

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Glen Berry wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:06:03 -0900, "mr.art" <mr.### [at] gcinet> wrote:
> 
> >Set width to 800, height to 600. Then set right to anything other
> >than 4/3*x and watch what happens. The image is stretched oddly.
> >So set the image to 800x450, leave right alone. The image is
> >stretched oddly. I would like to see povray try to keep the image
> >of a sphere round unless you tell it to do otherwise.
> >
> 
> In that case, my suggestion of specifying the aspect ratio in the
> scene file, and *either*  Width or Height, but *not both* on the
> command line (or povray.ini) would work. The image aspect ratio could
> be set with the camera{right} statement. Then we only need to specify
> *one* of the image dimensions on the command line. POV would calculate
> the other dimension.
> 
> I'm not forgetting that some systems might not employ square pixels.
> I'm also aware of the idea that some people might want to create
> images that are "compressed" in one dimension. For those situations, I
> propose that an option be created for the povray.ini file that
> specifies the *pixel* aspect ratio. This could also be used on the
> command line.
> 
> There is a definite practical advantage of having seperate variables
> assigned for the aspect ratio of the output image, and a second
> variable associated with the aspect ratio of an individual pixel.
> 
> Yes, all of this can be achieved currently, but it is awkward to work
> with multiple, image aspect ratios with the current system.
> 
> later,
> Glen Berry

A pixel aspect ratio would be mandatory unless square pixels are
default.
If I said width=320, ar=4/3, do I want 320x240 or 320x200 VGA mode?

PoD.

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On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:25:44 +1030, PoD <pod### [at] merlinnetau> wrote:

>A pixel aspect ratio would be mandatory unless square pixels are
>default.
>If I said width=320, ar=4/3, do I want 320x240 or 320x200 VGA mode?
>

Yes, like I said, a pixel aspect ratio should be set seperately. So
you would have something like this:

  Scene File:
     image_aspect_ratio=4/3

  ini File or Command Line:
    Width = 320
    Pixel_Aspect_Ratio = 1

From these three variables, POV-Ray could determine that a person
wanted a 320x240 output image to be displayed on a system that used
square pixels.

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