On 30/07/2014 10:13, scott wrote:
>> Trouble is, those mini fluorescent things take about quarter of an hour
>> to turn on...
> 
> They must be *very* old ones then. Even the 99p ones that Tesco were
> selling a while back turn on instantly. Given the price of them, and
> even the price of LED lights now, it's pretty much a no-brainer to just
> throw all your incandescent bulbs in the bin immediately.

When you have a single fixation system for the bulb, maybe.
But here (France !), I have two different system: screwing or bayonet mount.

So, it's not just "count, buy the number of bulbs and replace", each
mounting system must be checked and counted separatly.

Moreover, the impact of trashing still working apparatus is still a bit
disturbing.

I heard I'm not in the only country with such dual system. And bayonet
is the best system for customer, despite the extra-cost of the receiving
device (it's more than just a foil of metal pushed by a press). It's
easier to put and remove a bulb, and there is no tension on the external
body.

-- 
IQ of crossposters with FU: 100 / (number of groups)
IQ of crossposters without FU: 100 / (1 + number of groups)
IQ of multiposters: 100 / ( (number of groups) * (number of groups))

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> When you have a single fixation system for the bulb, maybe.
> But here (France !), I have two different system: screwing or bayonet mount.
>
> So, it's not just "count, buy the number of bulbs and replace", each
> mounting system must be checked and counted separatly.

Also in the UK we have by no means a single system, I have at least 
three types in my house. The traditional bayonet is IIRC in all the 
bedrooms, there are screw-fit "candle" bulbs in the downstairs rooms, 
and those spot-light bulbs with prongs on in the kitchen. I kept all the 
bayonets as fluorescents as they hardly get used (max 1 hour per day), 
but converted the spots and candle bulbs to LED as they see much more 
use and I could get my money back in under a year. It wasn't that tricky 
to count them and order the different types.

> Moreover, the impact of trashing still working apparatus is still a bit
> disturbing.

If you feel uncomfortable throwing them away, you could sell them 
(although that might be illegal now?), give them away or fit them in 
places that you very rarely use (eg attic or cupboard or something).

> I heard I'm not in the only country with such dual system. And bayonet
> is the best system for customer, despite the extra-cost of the receiving
> device (it's more than just a foil of metal pushed by a press). It's
> easier to put and remove a bulb, and there is no tension on the external
> body.

The other thing about threaded bulbs is that there is the chance they 
come loose over time due to the heat cycling of the thread. With bayonet 
it is impossible to come loose.

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Am 30.07.2014 10:33, schrieb Le_Forgeron:
> On 30/07/2014 10:13, scott wrote:
>>> Trouble is, those mini fluorescent things take about quarter of an hour
>>> to turn on...
>>
>> They must be *very* old ones then. Even the 99p ones that Tesco were
>> selling a while back turn on instantly. Given the price of them, and
>> even the price of LED lights now, it's pretty much a no-brainer to just
>> throw all your incandescent bulbs in the bin immediately.
>
> When you have a single fixation system for the bulb, maybe.
> But here (France !), I have two different system: screwing or bayonet mount.

Sounds like you're screwed then ;-) (SCNR)

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scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> > Trouble is, those mini fluorescent things take about quarter of an hour
> > to turn on...
>
> They must be *very* old ones then. Even the 99p ones that Tesco were
> selling a while back turn on instantly. Given the price of them, and
> even the price of LED lights now, it's pretty much a no-brainer to just
> throw all your incandescent bulbs in the bin immediately.

No way.

actinic.

As far as fittings go. A flat I was in recently had bayonet fittings with three
prongs instead of two.

Stephen

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> No way.


I think whatever brightness you want is available, within reason. The 
problem is likely the cheap standard ones are 40W or 60W equivalents, 
and they're probably lying a bit with those claims too. I'm pretty sure 
I've seen some monster 150W and 200W equivalents.

And the problem with LEDs is that you can't get a 100W equivalent LED 
(about 10W) in a package the size of a standard bulb - it just generates 
too much heat and would cook itself. So you need to use more bulbs, we 
have two 5x5W fittings in our living room so it was perfect for 
switching to LED and reducing the power from 400W down to 50W, but it 
only made financial sense because those lights are normally on for 
several hours every day.

> halogen ones are too
> actinic.

I don't think halogens offer any efficiency improvements over 
incandescents do they?

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On 7/30/2014 1:13 AM, scott wrote:
>> Trouble is, those mini fluorescent things take about quarter of an hour
>> to turn on...
>
> They must be *very* old ones then. Even the 99p ones that Tesco were
> selling a while back turn on instantly. Given the price of them, and
> even the price of LED lights now, it's pretty much a no-brainer to just
> throw all your incandescent bulbs in the bin immediately.

Yes well.. Here in the good old US, you get morons like the one who 
tried to tell me that, "other lights hurt my eyes", which I supposed 
meant that the dimwit was still trying to use the really old ones, which 
flicker, and thought that the new ones did too. He also whined about 
them not being "natural light", which is, you know, the whole point of 
the bulbs with a blue coloration to them, to make them more natural, as 
per outdoor light. So the clown was actually complaining that he didn't 
like light that actually bloody **was** a more natural color, instead of 
the ugly yellowish stuff standard incandescents produce. lol

Seriously though, I just so love living in a country where the answer to 
everything from which light bulb they pick, to which over sized SUV they 
drive, comes down to, "I don't like those more cost effective ones.", 
and/or, "and besides, I might need the extra stuff it can do for some 
reason, once in my entire life time!", and they get praise for this 
stupid attitude by such a large number of other idiots.

-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

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On 7/30/2014 6:00 AM, scott wrote:
>> No way.

>
> I think whatever brightness you want is available, within reason. The
> problem is likely the cheap standard ones are 40W or 60W equivalents,
> and they're probably lying a bit with those claims too. I'm pretty sure
> I've seen some monster 150W and 200W equivalents.
>
> And the problem with LEDs is that you can't get a 100W equivalent LED
> (about 10W) in a package the size of a standard bulb - it just generates
> too much heat and would cook itself. So you need to use more bulbs, we
> have two 5x5W fittings in our living room so it was perfect for
> switching to LED and reducing the power from 400W down to 50W, but it
> only made financial sense because those lights are normally on for
> several hours every day.
>
Well, you could.. But you would have to a) add a heat sink, b) use 
higher end LED which are way brighter than the ones usually found in 
those things, and c) throw out the transformer setup on them, and go 
with a straight DC power connection, with the right voltage range. 
Since, short of wiring your house yourself to provide 5v and 12v lines, 
instead of 220, or the local equivalent, none of these things are going 
to happen any time soon...


-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

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On 30/07/2014 20:03, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Seriously though, I just so love living in a country where the answer to
> everything from which light bulb they pick, to which over sized SUV they
> drive, comes down to, "I don't like those more cost effective ones.",
> and/or, "and besides, I might need the extra stuff it can do for some
> reason, once in my entire life time!", and they get praise for this
> stupid attitude by such a large number of other idiots.
> 
It's shared with other countries... 4x4 with bullbar (I mean, the heavy
mega super model)... in Paris, France.

Muddy roads in town, right!
Filled with angry charging cows... no doute.

btw, in France, getting off road to wild course with a vehicle is
forbidden (excepted on your own soil, but some forest are owned by
state-like-organisation so these ones are forbidden, and when was the
last time you saw a forest in Paris ?), so it's not like you are going
to need that mega-jumbo-wheel-drive to cross a field or a beach.

And for the unexpected snow condition (once every three years ? or
less), do not worry, the roads are to be blocked anyway by the other
cars (and trucks!), so you won't move even with that super-4x4.

-- 
IQ of crossposters with FU: 100 / (number of groups)
IQ of crossposters without FU: 100 / (1 + number of groups)
IQ of multiposters: 100 / ( (number of groups) * (number of groups))

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On 30/07/2014 09:13 AM, scott wrote:
>> Trouble is, those mini fluorescent things take about quarter of an hour
>> to turn on...
>
> They must be *very* old ones then. Even the 99p ones that Tesco were
> selling a while back turn on instantly. Given the price of them, and
> even the price of LED lights now, it's pretty much a no-brainer to just
> throw all your incandescent bulbs in the bin immediately.

I have yet to see a fluorescent bulb that works instantly. Oh, they all 
strike instantly, but it takes about quarter of an hour for them to 
"warm up" to the point where they produce any appreciable quantity of 
light. And even then, they always seem a bit dark. As inefficient as 
incandescent lights are, at least they WORK. There are many people who 
hate the mini flourescents with a fire passion.

LEDs sound like a nice idea, but the light they produce is usually very 
directional, and they're not really bright enough. You'd need to coat 
your whole ceiling with them.

As a matter of fact, my new flat has LED downlighters in the ceiling of 
the kitchen. Consequently, no matter where you stand, you are ALWAYS 
casting a shadow over the work surface. A normal light, suspended just 
below the ceiling and throwing light in all directions, doesn't seem to 
suffer this problem nearly as much.

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Am 30.07.2014 15:00, schrieb scott:

>> halogen ones are too
>> actinic.
>
> I don't think halogens offer any efficiency improvements over
> incandescents do they?

They do: Their filaments are hotter than those of classic incandescent 
bulbs, causing their emissive spectrum to be more blueish, so they emit 
less infrared light and more visible light. Some are also coated with a 
material that reflects infrared light.

The gain is rather low however, something like a factor of 1.2 over 
classic incandescent bulbs (*). Just about high enough to still allow 
them to be sold though.

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