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On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:37:06 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 08/04/2014 01:55 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 21:53:49 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>
>>> When we updated all our stuff to OpenSUSE 12.2, we found that it comes
>>> with GNOME 3, which is basically just like GNOME 2, except designed to
>>> only work on a Tablet.
>>
>> Well, no, that wasn't the design goal (as I understand it), but I use
>> GNOME3 daily, and I like its minimalistic approach.
>
> Heck, in OpenSUSE 13.1, they even took away the scrollbar and replaced
> it with a page-selector widget. The entire design seems focused on
> touchscreens.
I run 13.1 on two machines every day with GNOME3. I've no idea what
you're talking about - I've got scrollbars in my newsreader (pan), for
example, and they work like scrollbars.
>> The only thing I absolutely hate about it is when a plugin dies, it
>> crashes the entire session with an "Oh, no! Something happened!" and
>> an option to log out. I would at /least/ like to save documents I have
>> open before being forced to log out.
>>
>> Whoever thought that was a good idea spent far too much time dealing
>> with systems where everything runs in ring 0 and an abend was generally
>> considered a good thing. We're past those days now, and being able to
>> recover, say, a running virtual machine might just be a /good/ thing.
>
> I enjoy the way that you can enable and disable "GNOME shell
> extensions". Except that an "extension" is merely some code that patches
> the live JS code that powers the shell. When you disable one, THE
> EXTENSION is responsible for undoing all of its changes. If it does this
> incorrectly, then "disabling" a plugin does not put the system back into
> its original state.
Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
handling a bit more.
> Hell, it's trivially possible to write an extension that installs itself
> in the Init() function, and has EMPTY Enable() and Disable() functions!
> In which case, enabling or disabling the extension is no-op.
>
> People, THIS IS NOT SENSIBLE DESIGN!
>
> Designing a system that is completely undocumented, yet can only be
> extended by violating encapsulation to monkey-patch live code while it's
> still running is a Bad Idea.
>
> Designing a system where the plugin author is responsible for enabling
> and disabling correctly is a Bad Idea.
>
> Designing a system that's powered by an untyped psuedo-OO scripting
> language originally intended for web development rather than desktop
> applications is... questionable at best. :-P
>
> Utterly failing to document one single shred of this is... exasperating
> in the extremes!
>
> Still, we found that once we (*cough* I *cough*) spent a few months
> patching the code, we could get it to hobble along more or less how we
> wanted. OTOH, if Win8 doesn't work how you like... suck it?
:)
And the extensions system in GNOME3 has allowed those who preferred GNOME2
to get some semblance of the functionality they were used to.
I don't really care about the DE myself; GNOME3 is less distracting for
me than KDE, which is why I use it - I'm more interested in apps and
getting work done than tweaking my desktop endlessly. ;)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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>> Heck, in OpenSUSE 13.1, they even took away the scrollbar and replaced
>> it with a page-selector widget. The entire design seems focused on
>> touchscreens.
>
> I run 13.1 on two machines every day with GNOME3. I've no idea what
> you're talking about - I've got scrollbars in my newsreader (pan), for
> example, and they work like scrollbars.
https://news.opensuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Application-Launching-GNOME-13.1.png
You see those three dots on the right-hand edge? That used to be a
scrollbar. And now it's three dots. Clicking one takes you to that page.
Because clicking a dot is easy, but dragging a scrollbar is hard, when
all you have is a touchscreen.
(Ironically, our product actually *has* a touchscreen - and everybody
tries to swape-drag like it's an iPhone, and then gets awfully confused
when that doesn't work...)
>> When you disable one, THE
>> EXTENSION is responsible for undoing all of its changes.
>
> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
> handling a bit more.
Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how this
stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this much code
has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
One troll told me "no, there IS no documentation, and nor should there
be; the source code is the documentation". WTF? Yeah, like I'm *really*
going to read 50,000 LoC in an untyped scripting language just to figure
out what ****ing command I need to turn off one button!
You do not read the Linux source code just to figure out what the
default process priority is; you look at the frigging documentation!
>> Utterly failing to document one single shred of this is... exasperating
>> in the extremes!
>>
>> Still, we found that once we (*cough* I *cough*) spent a few months
>> patching the code, we could get it to hobble along more or less how we
>> wanted. OTOH, if Win8 doesn't work how you like... suck it?
>
> :)
>
> And the extensions system in GNOME3 has allowed those who preferred GNOME2
> to get some semblance of the functionality they were used to.
>
> I don't really care about the DE myself; GNOME3 is less distracting for
> me than KDE, which is why I use it - I'm more interested in apps and
> getting work done than tweaking my desktop endlessly. ;)
Yeah, well, we're trying to alter the DE so that you can only run our
app with it. That's quite a non-standard task...
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> mouse? why would anyone want to go back using a mouse when they can directly
> touch anywhere in the screen?
>
> that's why wireless screen mirroring is the sweet goal: you still have your
> device in your hand to act as a touchscreen remote controller.
I think that would feel really weird using the touch screen without
looking at it, how would you know where to tap? But I've never tried it.
Or do you mean just using it like a trackpad on an old laptop? I hate
those too, give me a mouse please!
> what's wrong with that UI? isn't it so fine that Windows is emulating it? ;)
The problem is not so much the UI itself, but that the graphics are
designed for a 4" display, if you replicate it pixel-for-pixel onto a
24"+ screen then everything is just too big. I wonder if there is a way
to tell Android dynamically that you are using a different ppi screen
now and to adjust itself, I've always just put up with a 30cm wide icon
to launch YouTube when I've connected mine up :-)
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On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:15:26 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> Heck, in OpenSUSE 13.1, they even took away the scrollbar and replaced
>>> it with a page-selector widget. The entire design seems focused on
>>> touchscreens.
>>
>> I run 13.1 on two machines every day with GNOME3. I've no idea what
>> you're talking about - I've got scrollbars in my newsreader (pan), for
>> example, and they work like scrollbars.
>
> https://news.opensuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Application-
Launching-GNOME-13.1.png
>
> You see those three dots on the right-hand edge? That used to be a
> scrollbar. And now it's three dots. Clicking one takes you to that page.
> Because clicking a dot is easy, but dragging a scrollbar is hard, when
> all you have is a touchscreen.
I don't actually see that when I go to the activities screen. I see the
apps that are running.
But I would be surprised if the mouse scrollwheel doesn't let you switch
from page to page there.
In applications themselves (which is what I thought you were talking
about, and what I was talking about), the scrollbar is present if needed.
>> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
>> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
>> handling a bit more.
>
> Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how this
> stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this much code
> has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
Well, I'm sure there's some, and it's not the source code, but I haven't
needed to write an extension yet, so I haven't really gone looking for it
yet.
But if I were, I might be inclined to look at the code for another
extension to see how it does it.
>> And the extensions system in GNOME3 has allowed those who preferred
>> GNOME2 to get some semblance of the functionality they were used to.
>>
>> I don't really care about the DE myself; GNOME3 is less distracting for
>> me than KDE, which is why I use it - I'm more interested in apps and
>> getting work done than tweaking my desktop endlessly. ;)
>
> Yeah, well, we're trying to alter the DE so that you can only run our
> app with it. That's quite a non-standard task...
I think there is a lockdown app for openSUSE. You might ask on the
openSUSE forums if anyone has experience with doing that sort of thing.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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>>> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
>>> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
>>> handling a bit more.
>>
>> Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how this
>> stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this much code
>> has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
>
> Well, I'm sure there's some, and it's not the source code, but I haven't
> needed to write an extension yet, so I haven't really gone looking for it
> yet.
>
> But if I were, I might be inclined to look at the code for another
> extension to see how it does it.
...and thus, if one person finds a flawed but superficially working way
to do something, everybody will copy their mistake. Because there's no
documentation on the "correct" way to do it.
Even then, I'm surprised this much code has been written. I spent
literally *weeks* trying to comprehend the code of several extensions I
looked at. To this day I literally cannot work out how the hell it
actually works. It's just SO COMPLICATED to do even the most trivial
task with this stuff...
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On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 18:27:33 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>>> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
>>>> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
>>>> handling a bit more.
>>>
>>> Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how
>>> this stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this
>>> much code has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
>>
>> Well, I'm sure there's some, and it's not the source code, but I
>> haven't needed to write an extension yet, so I haven't really gone
>> looking for it yet.
>>
>> But if I were, I might be inclined to look at the code for another
>> extension to see how it does it.
>
> ...and thus, if one person finds a flawed but superficially working way
> to do something, everybody will copy their mistake. Because there's no
> documentation on the "correct" way to do it.
I don't debate that, but I would tend to use code from a well-thought-of
extension. You can get some credibility from the GNOME developers.
> Even then, I'm surprised this much code has been written. I spent
> literally *weeks* trying to comprehend the code of several extensions I
> looked at. To this day I literally cannot work out how the hell it
> actually works. It's just SO COMPLICATED to do even the most trivial
> task with this stuff...
I do agree that better documentation is needed, along with sample code.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 06/04/2014 16:16, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:35:41 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> >It is a Win8 machine.
>> >
>> >I hate Win8
>> >
>> >Does anyone know of a "how to do things in Win8 that was easy in Win7",
>> >tutorial?
> fdisk
>
That's looking like a very attractive option. ATM.
I've spent most of the day trying to make this Win8 machine, and I use
that word loosely, dual boot. I've created partitions, I've deleted
partitions, I've made bootable thumb drives. I've been unable to boot at
all. I've changed settings in the BIOS as if I were testing a truth table.
But at least I have three logical discs instead on one big one.
And to top it all. Elite Dangerous wont run on it. And runs like a pig
on my old one.
Not to mention Thomas will be bending my ear because I should have been
talking to the TC-RTC's coder. </end guilt>
That is coming along well, by the way and we should be ready to test
running two Challenges in parallel. Very soon. :-D
> Install openSUSE.;)
Only if you set it up for me. ;-)
Dr John promised he would do it, years ago. Now he has gone AWOL again.
I'll take it into to work and see if I can bribe one of the IT guys with
two pizza to F*ck it up really good. :-)
If I'm going to break the warranty I'll do it properly.
--
Regards
Stephen
I solemnly promise to kick the next angle, I see.
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On 13/04/2014 00:22, Stephen wrote:
> On 06/04/2014 16:16, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> fdisk
I thought you meant low level format.
Nowadays it is diskpart .
--
Regards
Stephen
I solemnly promise to kick the next angle, I see.
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On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:22:54 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>> fdisk
>>
> That's looking like a very attractive option. ATM.
:)
> I've spent most of the day trying to make this Win8 machine, and I use
> that word loosely, dual boot. I've created partitions, I've deleted
> partitions, I've made bootable thumb drives. I've been unable to boot at
> all. I've changed settings in the BIOS as if I were testing a truth
> table.
> But at least I have three logical discs instead on one big one.
> And to top it all. Elite Dangerous wont run on it. And runs like a pig
> on my old one.
Dual booting what? One of the odd things with Win8 is that it's got this
"fast boot" option that caches some stuff (as I understand it) and that
"feature" speeds up Win8 booting at the expense of dual boot
functionality being horribly broken and nonfunctional.
> Not to mention Thomas will be bending my ear because I should have been
> talking to the TC-RTC's coder. </end guilt>
>
> That is coming along well, by the way and we should be ready to test
> running two Challenges in parallel. Very soon. :-D
>
>
>> Install openSUSE.;)
>
> Only if you set it up for me. ;-)
Remotely is a bit of a challenge. Is it a UEFI system with secure
boot? :)
> Dr John promised he would do it, years ago. Now he has gone AWOL again.
> I'll take it into to work and see if I can bribe one of the IT guys with
> two pizza to F*ck it up really good. :-)
Maybe we just need to start another game to get him to reappear. ;)
> If I'm going to break the warranty I'll do it properly.
I never worry about breaking the warranty - worst case, you wipe the
drive and say "I dunno what happened". :)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:33:27 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 13/04/2014 00:22, Stephen wrote:
>> On 06/04/2014 16:16, Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>>> fdisk
>
> I thought you meant low level format.
> Nowadays it is diskpart .
That is more or less what I meant.
But yeah, it's changed. It's an old joke from my time on the Novell
forums on CompuServe. "We are the SysOps who say 'fdisk'!" - I have a t-
shirt or a CD case somewhere with that printed on it. :)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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