So, some years ago I was a member of Mensa and I would guess that a
large majority of this forum would also qualify (top 2% of the population).
For no apparent reason I have decided to rejoin. I left the society
purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
their own fundaments.
Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
Brick?

John (thinking about loud music and strong liquor)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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On 1/13/2014 7:14 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> So, some years ago I was a member of Mensa and I would guess that a
> large majority of this forum would also qualify (top 2% of the population).
> For no apparent reason I have decided to rejoin. I left the society
> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
> their own fundaments.
> Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
> Brick?
>
> John (thinking about loud music and strong liquor)
>
Uh.. Not insane, but.. maybe a bit of a fool for thinking that an 
organization which thinks passing a lot of tests, which are the function 
equivalent of being very good at, if not obsessed with, "Brain Games", 
are part of any top 2% of the population. lol I am reminded of a song 
from Leslie Fish every time I hear about the group, "Better Than Who": 
http://lyrics.wikia.com/Leslie_Fish:Better_Than_Who

Somehow.. Being able to tell which one of a set of arbitrary patterns is 
"next in sequence", doesn't seem to me to be... *anywhere* on the list. 
lol And, yeah, I have seen the sort of things they test for. You can 
"learn" to be good at them, and still be a.. well, idiot with your nose 
stuck up your own fundament. - From someone that could probably pass 
their silly test, or get dang close, but would, then, use the 
certificate, or what ever you get, to line the cat box.

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On 14/01/14 03:53, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 1/13/2014 7:14 PM, Doctor John wrote:
>> Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
>> Brick?
>>
>> John (thinking about loud music and strong liquor)
>>
> Uh.. Not insane, but.. maybe a bit of a fool for thinking that an
> organization which thinks passing a lot of tests, which are the function
> equivalent of being very good at, if not obsessed with, "Brain Games",
> are part of any top 2% of the population. lol I am reminded of a song
> from Leslie Fish every time I hear about the group, "Better Than Who":
> http://lyrics.wikia.com/Leslie_Fish:Better_Than_Who
> 
> Somehow.. Being able to tell which one of a set of arbitrary patterns is
> "next in sequence", doesn't seem to me to be... *anywhere* on the list.
> lol And, yeah, I have seen the sort of things they test for. You can
> "learn" to be good at them, and still be a.. well, idiot with your nose
> stuck up your own fundament. - From someone that could probably pass
> their silly test, or get dang close, but would, then, use the
> certificate, or what ever you get, to line the cat box.

I think you may have missed the comment about Thick As A Brick. (FYI an
SIG is a special interest group and TAAB was dedicated to showing the
whole organisation up for the bunch of idiots it was)

John (IQ 70.5 and falling)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> So, some years ago I was a member of Mensa and I would guess that a
> large majority of this forum would also qualify (top 2% of the population).
> For no apparent reason I have decided to rejoin. I left the society
> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
> their own fundaments.
> Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
> Brick?

Intelligence is such a random thing...

One would think that the most super-intelligent people would end up
in professions like a theoretical astrophycisist who routinely
calculates what happens when two rotating black holes collide...
But no. Last I heard, the number 1 Mensa member in Finland is...
a postman. Not like a high-ranking director or anything. Just a
regular postman, one that goes from door to door distributing mail.

Of course it's a bit insensitive to talk about people with low
intelligence, but if we approach the subject on a completely pragmatic
level, there are certain things that such people are simply physically
unable to do. Their brain just doesn't let itself to perform certain
complex feats (such as solving the field equations of general relativity
for a certain set of parameters.)

However, having high intelligence doesn't automatically mean you are
apt for all tasks either. In fact, many of the most intelligent people
may be really bad at many things, and lack in many areas of life.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> One would think that the most super-intelligent people would end up
> in professions like a theoretical astrophycisist who routinely
> calculates what happens when two rotating black holes collide...
> But no. Last I heard, the number 1 Mensa member in Finland is...
> a postman. Not like a high-ranking director or anything. Just a
> regular postman, one that goes from door to door distributing mail.

Or perhaps, most super intelligent people are in jobs that require them 
to use it, just that outside of work they feel no need or can't be 
bothered to things like Mensa?

> However, having high intelligence doesn't automatically mean you are
> apt for all tasks either. In fact, many of the most intelligent people
> may be really bad at many things, and lack in many areas of life.

If you're intelligent at something, doesn't that just mean you've spent 
more time than most other people studying that something? By definition 
then you've had less time to study other things - like socialising and 
getting a dress sense :-)

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On 14/01/2014 02:14 AM, Doctor John wrote:
> I left the society
> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
> their own fundaments.

Yes... that is the impression I get about Mensa too. "Ooo, let's found a 
club that only really smart people can join. Then we can all stand 
around and rejoice in how clever we are..."

No thanks.

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On 14/01/14 21:09, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 14/01/2014 02:14 AM, Doctor John wrote:
>> I left the society
>> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
>> their own fundaments.
> 
> Yes... that is the impression I get about Mensa too. "Ooo, let's found a
> club that only really smart people can join. Then we can all stand
> around and rejoice in how clever we are..."
> 
> No thanks.

However, and this not aimed at you, Andrew, it never ceases to amaze me
how many people have a knee-jerk reaction to the subject of intelligence.

If you can run 10,000 metres in under 27 minutes, you are a hero. If you
can consistently knock a small white ball into a hole a few hundred
metres distant, you are a hero and get paid $SILLYNUM for it. If you can
string more than two words together, have a body like a god/dess and are
willing to stand in front of a camera for interminable takes, everybody
wants to have your babies. I also note that good athletes join athletics
clubs, good soccer players join soccer clubs and Povray users eventually
end up on news.povray.*. Where's the difference?

Human beings are social animals; they will tend to congregate in groups
that have similar tastes and talents to their own. (That last sentence
is not grammatically correct, but you know what I mean.) Therefore, it
is not surprising that those with high IQs will tend to cluster together
with their IQ being the marker for potential inclusion in the group.

Finally, scott, high IQ does _not_ equate to asocial behaviour and/or
poor dress sense. Your perception is skewed by the popular
misconception, usually starting at school, that being intelligent makes
you a nerd. If enough people tell you that you're a freak, you will
eventually believe it and give up on the socially-accepted parameters of
attractiveness - dressing fashionably, sharing in-jokes, giving a sh*t
about your appearance.

I was lucky. Firstly, my family were all above-average in intelligence;
that gave me a good support group to fall back on. Secondly, we are all
reasonably good-looking and good at sports; I am not the tallest or most
muscular in my family, but if you ever had the misfortune of facing me
on a rugby field, you would remember it. And finally I, my siblings and
my father have all had more than our fair share of partners in our
lifetimes. Whether that makes me or them immoral is not relevant to the
argument. What it does do is to indicate that the opposite (or same,
whatever turns you on) sex does not find my family of geniuses unattractive.

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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On 1/14/2014 3:10 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> On 14/01/14 21:09, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> On 14/01/2014 02:14 AM, Doctor John wrote:
>>> I left the society
>>> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
>>> their own fundaments.
>>
>> Yes... that is the impression I get about Mensa too. "Ooo, let's found a
>> club that only really smart people can join. Then we can all stand
>> around and rejoice in how clever we are..."
>>
>> No thanks.
>
> However, and this not aimed at you, Andrew, it never ceases to amaze me
> how many people have a knee-jerk reaction to the subject of intelligence.
>
> If you can run 10,000 metres in under 27 minutes, you are a hero. If you
> can consistently knock a small white ball into a hole a few hundred
> metres distant, you are a hero and get paid $SILLYNUM for it. If you can
> string more than two words together, have a body like a god/dess and are
> willing to stand in front of a camera for interminable takes, everybody
> wants to have your babies. I also note that good athletes join athletics
> clubs, good soccer players join soccer clubs and Povray users eventually
> end up on news.povray.*. Where's the difference?
>
Hmm. The fact that the people that tend to be in Mensa have more in 
common with Rainman, than Superman? lol Well, ok, not a nice thing to 
say, but its like a social club for billionaires. They are there not 
because they are actually smarter than everyone around them, but because 
they refuse to see how they got their, and being arrogant, assume it was 
due to "talent", and not happenstance and luck. In this case, the 
happenstance that led them to find puzzles, before golf clubs, and 
people willing to let them pursue it, and the luck of figuring out the 
sorts of tricks needed to solve them. The former, is much rarer than the 
latter, which most people can learn, if they want to waste a lot of time 
doing it.

Its all well and good to have a club, but.. Mensa is a bit like a 
"gentleman's club", it comes with the flawed assumption that they are 
there because they are inherently better, and the ones not in the club, 
thus, have huge, substantial, mental flaws. Unfortunately, they do allow 
women in, so its.. kind of hard to walk up to the door, and embarrass 
them, by showing them that they are not as good at the things they 
praise themselves for as they imagine they are. They are, as you say, 
like a golf club, or a sports club, etc., where everyone there is there 
because they got good at something which, frankly, when it comes to 
solving real problems (which don't involve sports stadiums, golf clubs, 
or obscure logic puzzles), is objectively useless.

To me, its a bit like having like... a certificate of expertise for 
something like computer networks. It will get you in the door of places 
where the people like certificates more than actual skill, but, to 
actual solve problems, the only credentials that **might** count, is 
having read a lot of 2600 magazine and attended DefCon conferences. Why? 
Because the guy with only the Cert only knows how to press all the 
buttons, and mash things together "by the book", but the other buy, 
actually knows how, and why, the damn thing actually works, and thus, 
how to make it work, if its not a nice, neat, clear, and simple problem, 
which you can look up in the "official" certification manual. Mensa is a 
label, in other words, which bloody fools value, but anyone that knows 
what they are doing would chalk up as, "Ah, one of those.. lets hope 
they actually know how to F-ing do something though..." lol

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On 14/01/14 22:45, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Hmm. The fact that the people that tend to be in Mensa have more in
> common with Rainman, than Superman? lol Well, ok, not a nice thing to
> say, but its like a social club for billionaires. They are there not
> because they are actually smarter than everyone around them, but because
> they refuse to see how they got their, and being arrogant, assume it was
> due to "talent", and not happenstance and luck. In this case, the

I think I addressed this point later. Yes, I agree that the genes (or
whatever, this is not a nature vs nurture debate) are randomly scattered
around the population. Your assumption, however, that the possessors of
those genes are arrogant is, at best, naive and at the other end verges
on the downright insulting. Look at the average sports star; his/her
body language screams the info 'I am better than you'.

> and the luck of figuring out the
> sorts of tricks needed to solve them. The former, is much rarer than the
> latter, which most people can learn, if they want to waste a lot of time
> doing it.
> 

Patrick, I give you a challenge. You have one year to learn the
'tricks'. We will then face up in a neutral environment and take the
tests. If I win, you publicly apologise and if you win, I do the same. Deal?

> Its all well and good to have a club, but.. Mensa is a bit like a
> "gentleman's club", it comes with the flawed assumption that they are
> there because they are inherently better, and the ones not in the club,
> thus, have huge, substantial, mental flaws.

So, you've been a member, have you? Please don't make assumptions based
on zero experience.
> 
> To me, its a bit like having like... a certificate of expertise for
> something like computer networks. It will get you in the door of places
> where the people like certificates more than actual skill, but, to
> actual solve problems, the only credentials that **might** count, is
> having read a lot of 2600 magazine and attended DefCon conferences. Why?
> Because the guy with only the Cert only knows how to press all the
> buttons, and mash things together "by the book", but the other buy,
> actually knows how, and why, the damn thing actually works, and thus,
> how to make it work, if its not a nice, neat, clear, and simple problem,
> which you can look up in the "official" certification manual. Mensa is a
> label, in other words, which bloody fools value, but anyone that knows
> what they are doing would chalk up as, "Ah, one of those.. lets hope
> they actually know how to F-ing do something though..." lol
> 

...and how are we to judge ability then? A BA, MA or even PhD (or other
qualifications) certificate says certain things about you. Apply for a
job through me with one of those in your hand and I would be willing to
give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I can't be arsed to
prove it" then you won't even get through the front door.

John (still smiling but feeling the strain)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in the 
US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed, 
teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what kids 
these days seem to be subjected to).

All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd, I 
*hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.

But people who are good at bashing other people's heads in playing 
football, or dunking a ball through a hoop with a net - they're "heroes".

Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is failing.

I guess it's because we don't believe in God hard enough.  Yeah, that 
must be it - it certainly can't be because STEM education standards 
absolutely suck in a lot of the US.  It couldn't possibly have to do with 
anything about believing that "creationism" is science and "evolution" is 
a myth.  Couldn't f*cking have anything to do with that.

Kinda a hot button for me, and I'm overtired and a bit stressed.  Sorry, 
carry on. ;)

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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