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On 1/3/2014 2:32 AM, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>>> I'm almost tempted to call you a nasty name.
>>>
>> Sigh... Seriously? The problem here isn't that someone should take "no"
>> precautions. The problem is taking "imaginary" ones, which do nothing
>> but promote the excuses used to both get criminal off the hook, and
>> shame women into thinking, "I should have done something different.",
>> even when it was impossible to have done anything different. Slut
>> shaming is ***NOT*** acceptable, but its exactly what happens, every
>> single damn time a rape happens, and some idiots starts rattling off a
>> list of things they "might have" done differently, while having no F-ing
>> clue what the hell they did, or didn't, do, or based on a laundry list
>> of myths and stupid assumptions.
>
> Ok, I'm so tempted that I can't resist it anymore: You are fucking moron.
>
> Someone trying to be helpful is not "slut shaming". Go fuck yourself.
>
But, you are not being helpful to give bad advice.
See, the problem here is that some of the advice is bloody useless. You
rattled off a list of "common" suggestions, of which maybe 1 of them
wasn't useless. A year ago I would have done the exact same thing,
then.. I listened to victims of rape, I read their accounts, and found
out what is and isn't true about the subject. Now.. I get a bit pissed
when I see the same nonsense trotted out.
Here is the thing - A few months back someone put up a post about
"their" experience and why they don't trust either cops, or the courts,
to do what is right when it comes to rape cases. This was the script
that got followed, both times she actually reported it:
1. The cops initially don't believe it.
2. They spend hours going over not what the rapist did, but every nit
picky little idiocy possible, from what she was wearing to what she
said, how hard she fought back, if at all (never mind the guy is usually
stronger, and resistance could get you killed in some cases). In other
words, about 5 minutes of, "Who was it, and we did he do?", and 1:55
minutes of them making someone who had been abused, beaten, and raped,
feel even more like shit, by trying to come up with some bloody stupid
ass excuse for why it was, at least in part, her fault, and therefor,
the cops wouldn't have to arrest someone.
3. Harassment from various people, including acquaintances, some of them
the friends of the rapist themselves, the press, and other media, etc.
Many of them didn't want it to be true, insisting she must have, on some
level wanted, it, or asking them "what did you do wrong".
4. When months later, it came to court, she had to sit on the witness
stand and go through the whole damned experience, all over again,
including an all new interrogation, just like the 2 hours she spent with
the cops, to start with, only to have the bloody jury believe the
rapist's excuses, and let him off.
Guess how many **women** posted on to that article who claimed that this
sort of thing wasn't "common", that the list of "concerns" where valid,
that any of the advice about what they wore, or not, and other similar
things **ever** protected them either, or that they had a different
experience when going to the cops, or in court, when it finally came to
a trial? But, there where dozens of men showing up, to offer advice, all
of it in the same vein of, "Well, if only you had done this instead.",
or, "What where you wearing at the time?"
Maybe I shouldn't have jumped all over you like I did, but.. no matter
how much you might have intended to help, pretty much every rape victim
in the world, on reading your advice, would be cursing you for being a
fool. Your intent doesn't matter. Its whether or not your advice isn't
something every single damn one of them heard before it happened
already, but proved, when it did happen, to be meaningless, and then,
heard again, over and over again, from people who either wanted to,
"help them avoid it next time", or, "should have done, but didn't".
To put it in simplest terms - men get raped too, but only the women ever
get useless advice about what they are wearing, or where they where
walking, etc. And, to paraphrase the author of that, and several other
blog posts on the subject, "The problem isn't what the women are doing,
its the assumption that those things should matter, combined with men
who haven't learned to truly respect women, instead of seeing them as
objects to be pursued, and, for some, taken." That, and.. what ever the
"intent", thinking that its "helpful" to give out advice about their
lipstick, or clothing, or anything else, while presuming that men, for
some reason, don't need to worry about this the same way, proved the point.
Rape isn't "natural", its not someone men "must do", or are "force by"
their biology to commit. It happens because men are told to assume that
women dressing a certain way "want it", that coercion is a valid way to
get women into bed, that "no" doesn't **always** mean no, that somehow
they "deserve" something for the effort, and.. that all of these stupid
assumptions, but the men that do commit rapes, can somehow be avoided by
dressing the right way, staying in lit places, hanging out with the
right friends, and a long list of other bad advice. The women are not
the ones that need to be fixed, and most of the ways people trot out,
all with the best intentions, to, "reduce the risk", don't, because they
have nothing ***at all*** to do with why, where, how, and when rape happens.
But, if you really feel so strongly that I am being unfair, take it up
with the people that woke me up to how bloody stupid this advice usually
is, and made me agree enough about it to jump at someone so strongly for
giving it:
http://skepchick.org/2013/08/when-i-didnt-consent-why-i-reported-why-i-didnt/
Or, the reaction some of those previous victims have to some similar
"advice/product" intended to "protect" people (two women, who I like to
think are badly confused have come up with "underwear", which is
inconvenient, stupid, and silly, based on the faulty assumption that
someone with a knife is going to be trying to rape the person wearing
it, out in the scary world, and not "at home", with someone who might
already have it off, assuming any woman would actually want to wear
these things in their own home, or anyplace else they feel safe, in the
first place, by the time they cross a line and get told to piss off and
go away):
http://skepchick.org/2013/11/scienceburqas/
I doubt they will be any more enthused by your misguided attempt to "help".
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On 1/3/2014 6:01 AM, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> I know someone who
>
> Btw, how about we start citing sources rather than just relaying
> personal anecdotes? I'll start:
>
>
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/campus/Pages/increased-risk.aspx
> http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/campus/Pages/decrease-risk.aspx
>
> "In particular, certain actions reduce the risk of rape more than
> 80 percent compared to nonresistance."
>
> Your sources, please?
>
A campus is not the rest of the world, and the statistics "do" differ
between there and other places. That tends to happen, when you cram a
lot of people, in a specific age group, many of which seem to presume
that one purpose of college is to party and get laid, in one place. And,
I never said "all", advice was bad advice. What I objected to was most
of the stuff you came up with as "advice".
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On 1/3/2014 1:55 PM, Nekar Xenos wrote:
> Another problem concerning this is fake rape claims where a girl claims
> some-one has raped them only later to recant and say they just didn't
> like his attitude or something or wanted to pat him back for something
> silly.
You have no clue a) how uncommon that really is, and b) how much shit
women go through, even when it is legitimate, which might result in them
"wanting" to recant it, even if it did happen. So.. Don't go there. I
refer you to the same thing I posted in the other comment:
http://skepchick.org/2013/08/when-i-didnt-consent-why-i-reported-why-i-didnt/
This is why even many of those "recanted" cases are not really
recanting, and at least one of the reasons why so many rapes never get
reported at all, even when they *are* real.
Anyone else want to trot out one of the endless excuses for why its
either, "not the guys fault, or didn't happen, or isn't really that big
of a problem"? The "false rape" thing is vastly rarer than people claim,
and is just one more reason used by MRAs (Men's Right Association) types
to claim that "no" rape is ever rape, among other things. What sort of
people do you think "intentionally" spread it, right along with the ones
that do it unintentionally, because, despite having no statistics to
back up the claim, "Everyone knows it happens a lot."
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On 2014-01-04 17:28, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> You have no clue a) how uncommon that really is, and b) how much shit
> women go through, even when it is legitimate, which might result in them
> "wanting" to recant it, even if it did happen. So.. Don't go there. I
> refer you to the same thing I posted in the other comment:
While it is important to understand the significance of item b), it's
also important to understand that
> http://skepchick.org [snip]
is in fact a particular subset of the larger population of women.
Despite the overall message of some of the posts on that site, not every
moment of every woman's life is a living hell, forever, even if you're a
non-white transgendered woman.
Not saying that life doesn't suck, but...if it sucked /that/ much?
People would be killing themselves a /lot more often/ than they are.
(Though I will say that, for myself, the greatest gift I can give my
hypothetical children is to never have them, because The World.)
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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> A campus is not the rest of the world, and the statistics "do" differ
> between there and other places. That tends to happen, when you cram a
> lot of people, in a specific age group, many of which seem to presume
> that one purpose of college is to party and get laid, in one place. And,
> I never said "all", advice was bad advice. What I objected to was most
> of the stuff you came up with as "advice".
Firstly, if such a study shows that actions can be taken to reduce the
risk of rape in one community, and that they have a significant effect,
then it's not unreasonable to deduce that actions can be taken in other
communities as well. Or do you have actual credible sources that say
otherwise?
Secondly, I didn't say "they should do this or that". What I said was
that it's a good thing to try to figure out what could be done to reduce
the risks, and listed some things that could be studied to see if there
is some correlation.
What really irks me is when someone comes up and calls the act of actually
trying to do something with names like "slut shaming". Trying to *help*
prevent rapes is not victim blaming. Insulting people who do so is
disgusting.
Such an attitude is only detrimental. It gives women the notion that
"you are just a helpless victim and there's nothing you can do about it.
Don't let people tell you otherwise, they are just victim blaming you."
--
- Warp
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From: Nekar Xenos
Subject: Re: It has nothing to do with Islam, but ...
Date: 5 Jan 2014 05:24:46
Message: <op.w87lvjtqufxv4h@xena>
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On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 01:28:13 +0200, Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom>
wrote:
> On 1/3/2014 1:55 PM, Nekar Xenos wrote:
>> Another problem concerning this is fake rape claims where a girl claims
>> some-one has raped them only later to recant and say they just didn't
>> like his attitude or something or wanted to pat him back for something
>> silly.
>
> You have no clue a) how uncommon that really is,
I do. I just thought it was worth mentioning since I haven't seen it
mentioned in this post.
and b) how much shit
> women go through, even when it is legitimate, which might result in them
> "wanting" to recant it, even if it did happen. So.. Don't go there. I
> refer you to the same thing I posted in the other comment:
>
True. I should have mentioned that as well.
--
-Nekar Xenos-
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On 04/01/2014 10:01 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 10:23:20 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding is a good summary.
>>>
>>>
>> Similar to what I understand it to mean.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality
>
> Yep.
>
> The explanation I initially had been given was something along the lines
> that people contribute to the discussion of the colour because they can -
> they may not know anything about construction, building codes, etc - but
> they can have an opinion on the colour, so they provide it so they're
> "participating."
>
>
My understanding is that people will accept the big picture as described
by the "experts" because they don't feel competent to question it. But
for smaller projects they will talk it to death. As anyone can build a
"bikeshed".
Just like cooking. Everyone will tell you how to cook and may feal that
they could open a restaurant because they can cook for a dinner party.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 04/01/2014 10:03 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> The only royal I'm somewhat interested in hearing news of is Theresa, the
> Crown Princess of Lichtenstein.;)
Into a bit of Necro, are we> ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Why the evil is evel? Don't ask - don't tell!
Date: 5 Jan 2014 19:49:56
Message: <52c9fdb4$1@news.povray.org>
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On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 23:59:23 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> My understanding is that people will accept the big picture as described
> by the "experts" because they don't feel competent to question it. But
> for smaller projects they will talk it to death. As anyone can build a
> "bikeshed".
Ultimately, the two explanations aren't that different. It's about
peoples' feeling of competence, and that they need to contribute
something, so they do when there's something they feel they can
legitimately have an opinion about. I may not have an opinion on the
merits of using fir vs. pine, but I can have an opinion about what colour
it is, and since I can have one, I should so I can be seen to be
participating in the discussion.
The things that require a lower amount (or no) expertise on tend to draw
more discussion than the things that require a higher degree of
expertise, so you end up with a larger discussion about what colour the
hypothetical bikeshed should be than about whether (say) the ground is
solid enough to support the weight of the shed and its contents.
Or indeed about the structure of a house vs. the shed in the back yard.
> Just like cooking. Everyone will tell you how to cook and may feal that
> they could open a restaurant because they can cook for a dinner party.
Yep.
Which is why so many restaurants fail - cooking is a small portion of
running that kind of business. Obviously you have to be competent at
purchasing, pricing, marketing, portion sizing, and a ton of other things.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Why the evil is evel? Don't ask - don't tell!
Date: 5 Jan 2014 19:50:19
Message: <52c9fdcb$1@news.povray.org>
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On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 00:01:41 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 04/01/2014 10:03 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The only royal I'm somewhat interested in hearing news of is Theresa,
>> the Crown Princess of Lichtenstein.;)
>
> Into a bit of Necro, are we> ;-)
No, I just want to know how Martin gets on. :)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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