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On 06/08/2012 9:27 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> Having skills is a vastly different thing than /proving/ you have
>>> skills. Therein lies the problem.
>>
>> Not for the right employer.
>
> Yeah, well, there aren't too many of those around.
>
> You would /think/ that the abundant evidence that I'm an intelligent
> person with a large capacity to learn and the necessary drive to do so
> would be worth more than a thousand paper qualifications. You would
> think this would be the most valuable thing /ever/.
>
It is but in this inclement climate short sightedness is the order of
the day. :-(
> And yet, the vast majority of companies will simply say "do you have 3
> years of commercial experience with product X?" If the answer is yes,
> then they will speak to you. If the answer is no, suddenly you stop
> existing. Don't give a damn about any other qualities you may have. If
> you don't already know X, you're no good to us.
>
Again you are mostly right. It all goes back to when companies stopped
taking on apprentices.
Those two sentences do not make good reading but as I know from personal
experience. You can't ever give up and must try to addapt.
>
>> What's been working for me is to do contract work with companies I'd like
>> to work with. That lets them see you work and see what you can do. I've
>> impressed every company I've worked with AFAIK, and three of them have
>> talked about wanting to hire me - but with the economy the way it is,
>> everyone is hesitant to hire over here.
>
> I don't see how that makes it any easier to find companies, make them
> actually speak to you, and ultimately hire your services. It also
> appears to provide no financial security whatsoever. Instead of spending
> two years unemployed and then getting a job and being able to stop
> looking, you end up having to /permanently/ search for jobs...
Contracting is not an easy option but you might think about it while you
are waiting to find a permanent job. It does supply an income.
If you feel that you cannot get a job locally and you don't want to be
on the dole. It is the another option.
--
Regards
Stephen
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> It is but in this inclement climate short sightedness is the order of
> the day. :-(
In /this/ climate? Damn, and here I was thinking this has been the story
of my /entire career/, long before things went thermonuclear.
It seems that in general companies are only interested in what's
happening /right now/, and anything further out than that is irrelevant.
> Contracting is not an easy option but you might think about it while you
> are waiting to find a permanent job. It does supply an income.
> If you feel that you cannot get a job locally and you don't want to be
> on the dole. It is the another option.
I very much doubt I have the vast organisational skills required to pull
this off.
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>>> Not for the right employer.
>>
>> Yeah, well, there aren't too many of those around.
>
> That's your experience, maybe. Others have a different experience.
There are a huge number of companies out there. Not all of them are any
good though. ;-)
> I've fought this one for a long time. I refused to get certifications
> and relied instead on having proven experience. That did disqualify me
> from some jobs (Iomega once upon a time) - but I used it as an employer
> litmus test; if they were more interested in the piece of paper than in
> my actual abilities, I wouldn't want to work for them anyways, because if
> there was ever a question about who was right on something, it'd be the
> one who earned the certification rather than the one who had the
> experience.
Amen.
>> Don't give a damn about any other qualities you may have. If
>> you don't already know X, you're no good to us.
>
> If they're trying to fill a very specific need, then that becomes a
> rather important qualification.
>
>> Because, let's face it, a guy with a weak knowledge of X is far more
>> desirable than a day with the capacity to learn everything there is to
>> know about X, Y, Z, Q, W, V and R and then some. Right?
>
> In some cases, yes, actually.
I could understand "in some cases".
What I'm rather bemused about is the "in ALL cases" part. I have yet to
meet a single employer who was the /slightest/ bit interested in what I
might be capable of learning.
> That's why I have someone else to do that for me. :)
Nice...
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On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:41:18 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> It is but in this inclement climate short sightedness is the order of
>> the day. :-(
>
> In /this/ climate? Damn, and here I was thinking this has been the story
> of my /entire career/, long before things went thermonuclear.
>
> It seems that in general companies are only interested in what's
> happening /right now/, and anything further out than that is irrelevant.
Public companies are run on a quarter-by-quarter basis (at least in the
US, but probably elsewhere as well). Everything is driven by immediate
needs and quarterly earnings results.
That's one of the major problems IMHO with publicly traded corporations.
Private corporations can focus on a longer game.
>> Contracting is not an easy option but you might think about it while
>> you are waiting to find a permanent job. It does supply an income.
>> If you feel that you cannot get a job locally and you don't want to be
>> on the dole. It is the another option.
>
> I very much doubt I have the vast organisational skills required to pull
> this off.
I don't either. That's why I have someone who organises my contracts for
me.
If they're over in the UK, check out AeroTek (or TekSystems). I've
worked with them in the past and they found me something very quickly
that turned into a full-time position (this was almost 15 years ago).
They specialize in technical recruiting and placement. The offered pay
was pretty good, too - though I never actually got paid by them because I
was offered full-time permanent work and the company bought the contract
out.
Jim
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On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:43:49 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>>> Not for the right employer.
>>>
>>> Yeah, well, there aren't too many of those around.
>>
>> That's your experience, maybe. Others have a different experience.
>
> There are a huge number of companies out there. Not all of them are any
> good though. ;-)
Even given your limited experience, that's an astute observation. :)
>> I've fought this one for a long time. I refused to get certifications
>> and relied instead on having proven experience. That did disqualify me
>> from some jobs (Iomega once upon a time) - but I used it as an employer
>> litmus test; if they were more interested in the piece of paper than in
>> my actual abilities, I wouldn't want to work for them anyways, because
>> if there was ever a question about who was right on something, it'd be
>> the one who earned the certification rather than the one who had the
>> experience.
>
> Amen.
What it means is when you *do* find the right place, they respect you for
the right reasons. For me, that is worth a lot.
>>> Don't give a damn about any other qualities you may have. If you don't
>>> already know X, you're no good to us.
>>
>> If they're trying to fill a very specific need, then that becomes a
>> rather important qualification.
>>
>>> Because, let's face it, a guy with a weak knowledge of X is far more
>>> desirable than a day with the capacity to learn everything there is to
>>> know about X, Y, Z, Q, W, V and R and then some. Right?
>>
>> In some cases, yes, actually.
>
> I could understand "in some cases".
>
> What I'm rather bemused about is the "in ALL cases" part. I have yet to
> meet a single employer who was the /slightest/ bit interested in what I
> might be capable of learning.
As you observed, there are a lot of companies out there. So it's not
"all cases", it's just "all cases within [your] experience".
>> That's why I have someone else to do that for me. :)
>
> Nice...
You could probably do so as well. You write well enough (that's what I
end up doing) - but the person I'm working with deals primarily with US-
based companies. I could ask her if she knows anyone who does what she
does in the UK, though, if you like. She may.
One thing that is *really* helpful in this particular line of work is an
ability to learn new technologies quickly. That becomes a HUGE asset.
Jim
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>> It seems that in general companies are only interested in what's
>> happening /right now/, and anything further out than that is irrelevant.
>
> Public companies are run on a quarter-by-quarter basis (at least in the
> US, but probably elsewhere as well). Everything is driven by immediate
> needs and quarterly earnings results.
>
> That's one of the major problems IMHO with publicly traded corporations.
> Private corporations can focus on a longer game.
Isn't this exactly the same problem as democratic government? The people
in power want to stay in power, and the electorate only seem to be
interested in what's happening today, so...
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> On 04/08/2012 09:09 PM, waggy wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> You know someone, and they recommend a position for you. If you were
>>> willing
>>> to move to where someone on p.o-t lives, there would probably be people
>>> offering you jobs based on what they know of you here.
>>>
>> This. Looking back on it, most of the positions I've held, including
>> those
>> while I was active duty in the military, I got through word-of-mouth
>> referral,
>> despite the fact that I suck at networking.
>
> ...right... so given that I don't know anybody, I should just give up
> now? Is that what you're saying?
Aren't you in a dance club or class or something? Do any of these
people work in some sort of office, or company? ASK them if they know
of any openings at their workplace.
On a semi-related note, when we were grown up enough that my mom decided
to re-enter the job market, someone told her to take a piece of paper
and fill it with the word "NO", but and the very end write "YES". For
every job you don't get, you scratch one of the NOs. Don't despair
until you get to the YES.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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>> ...right... so given that I don't know anybody, I should just give up
>> now? Is that what you're saying?
>
> Aren't you in a dance club or class or something? Do any of these people
> work in some sort of office, or company? ASK them if they know of any
> openings at their workplace.
I'll give it a go. I doubt I'll get many offers though...
> Don't despair until you get to the YES.
Right. Because /now/ you're in your own personal Dilbert strip. ;-)
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On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 08:54:51 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>> It seems that in general companies are only interested in what's
>>> happening /right now/, and anything further out than that is
>>> irrelevant.
>>
>> Public companies are run on a quarter-by-quarter basis (at least in the
>> US, but probably elsewhere as well). Everything is driven by immediate
>> needs and quarterly earnings results.
>>
>> That's one of the major problems IMHO with publicly traded
>> corporations.
>> Private corporations can focus on a longer game.
>
> Isn't this exactly the same problem as democratic government? The people
> in power want to stay in power, and the electorate only seem to be
> interested in what's happening today, so...
Not really - though part of the problem is that problems aren't solved
quickly, possibly as a means of extending the need to stay in office.
But the electorate - at re-election time - if they don't like what's
happening, in theory can vote out the bums in office and put new bums in
office.
Jim
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On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:44:14 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>> ...right... so given that I don't know anybody, I should just give up
>>> now? Is that what you're saying?
>>
>> Aren't you in a dance club or class or something? Do any of these
>> people work in some sort of office, or company? ASK them if they know
>> of any openings at their workplace.
>
> I'll give it a go. I doubt I'll get many offers though...
They may not be the hiring manager; that doesn't mean that they can't
refer you. We've talekd about this before.
Jim
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