On 9-6-2012 20:57, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what
> makes them KEY words...
>
>>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH MY
>>> MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>>
>> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.
>
> Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...

That is precisely the point: you haven't seen much.

>> I left college for a job in their MIS department. What excited me about
>> the job? Flexible hours, the ability to build new systems and to affect
>> the bottom line indirectly. I did my first large-scale project (only
>> $30,000, but it was a full rewiring of the building for voice/network),
>> and had a chance to learn from someone I came to respect how to make a
>> business case so I could do the things I wanted to do.
>
>> The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money - there
>> should be something about the job or the company that makes you /want/ to
>> get up and go to work in the morning.
>
> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
> EXCITED about doing a job...

Sorry to correct you here, but there are quite a few of those in this 
group. Or you may not count that as meeting. If you restrict yourself to 
actually physically meeting, you might have a point, but only by not 
interacting with people from outside your isolated community. It may 
look pretty and comfortable to you, but it is not the place where 
interesting things happen.

Post a reply to this message

On 09/06/2012 8:42 PM, andrel wrote:
>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>
> Sorry to correct you here, but there are quite a few of those in this
> group. Or you may not count that as meeting. If you restrict yourself to
> actually physically meeting, you might have a point, but only by not
> interacting with people from outside your isolated community. It may
> look pretty and comfortable to you, but it is not the place where
> interesting things happen.

So true. I have had three careers and I would have paid money to do 
them, I enjoy(ed) them so much. Working 9 to 5 in a job that is only a 
means of getting money to live. Is my idea of hell, unless your social 
live makes up for it.
(My tuppence worth)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 19:57:21 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I find it to be trivial.
> 
> Wow. OK, that's impressive. Next time I can't find something, I'll know
> who to ask...
> 
> (Oh, wait, I can't do that. Warp will yell at me. :-P )

Earlier today, I was looking for ways to analyse mbox headers.  Took a 
few tries and different combinations, but I found some scripts in about 
15 minutes that gave me a start.

>> One thing that helps tremendously is to just use keywords, not to write
>> a novel as the question.
> 
> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what
> makes them KEY words...

And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see 
above).  It ain't rocket science.

>>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH
>>> MY MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>>
>> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.
> 
> Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...

Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?

Surely you've seen pictures of those places.

>> Yes, but if there are largely small companies, they may typically hire
>> some kid recently out of school (often times before they've been to
>> uni) because they know the kid because he/she fixed their computer
>> once.
> 
> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who works
> for them; she reckons that should be my next target...

That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows someone 
in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the department, 
odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that looks 
interesting to you.

>>> Sure. And if a job was in, say, Northampton, that would be fine.
>>> Anything that's within a reasonable commuting distance of where I
>>> live.
>>
>> What distance would you consider?
> 
> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.

Well, sure, it isn't proportional, but usually you can't say "show me 
companies that are within 30 minutes of a location at 8 AM and 5 PM" and 
get useful results.  So distance is as good a measure as anything.

25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next 
full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of 
the time.

Something to consider.

>>> Interesting...
>>
>> You don't recall that?
> 
> Vaguely. I still don't get how anybody can /buy/ a house outright, 

Most people don't.  They get a mortgage.  Our 30-year mortgage (IIRC) is 
about $1,300/month.

> but
> renting seems plausible, if you make a lot of money.

Or if you room with someone else.  My stepson and his girlfriend are 
looking at renting with a couple friends of theirs.  Round here, rent's 
not too bad, about $700/mo on average IIRC.

>>> And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so...
>>> (Damn, if only I could remember their names!)
>>
>> Don't worry about remembering names - I never remember names myself,
> 
> Everywhere I go, I can never remember anybody's names, and yet they all
> seem to know exactly who I am. It's weird...

It's not weird.  I've known people who could remember names and faces 
very well.  I've met literally thousands of people at tradeshows, and 
they always remember me, but if they're not wearing a nametag, I usually 
don't remember them unless I've spent time talking to them away from the 
show.

Though often when they tell me their name, I'll remember them - maybe 
it's more the association of names and faces that I have trouble with.

> (Or maybe *I* am weird, which is why everybody knows me.)

You do have some /interesting/ traits that make you memorable.  Not in a 
bad way, either.

>> It's a question of scale.  And you don't be someone worth mentioning,
>> you have to pursue it.  Most HR professionals say that they're not
>> interested in hiring someone who doesn't show initiative.  You don't
>> say to an HR person "if you see something that looks like a good fit,
>> get in touch with me".
> 
> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".

Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the 
company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm interested 
in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the person you 
interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't work out, but 
I found another one that looks like a better fit, could you give me a 
hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening interview with the HR 
department in the past.

Persistence pays off.

Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not showing 
initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company, finding a 
position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to before there 
and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and I'd be a good 
fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in terms of what they 
do - show that you know what they do) - that is a good thing.

>>> So in the interview, they always seem to ask you something along the
>>> lines of "what excites you about our company?" or "why did you choose
>>> us?" or something similar.
>>
>> Yep.  So you have to find something to be excited about - and there has
>> to be something that interests you beyond the paycheck, or there's
>> little reason for you to stay.  Hiring people is expensive, so they
>> want to hire people who have a peripheral interest.
> 
> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company for
> any reason other than the money.

Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on 
something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a 
particular organisation.

>>> Why did I pick this company? The honest truth is obviously "this is
>>> all I could find".
>>
>> m-/
>>
>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
> 
> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
> not as if job openings grow on trees...

You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.  As population 
grows, if unemployment stays the same or drops, then jobs are in fact 
growing.

>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>> interest.
> 
> Sounds infeasible to me.

Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you are, 
and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.

>> You don't have to pretend about it.
> 
> Oh really?

Really.  I took on teaching because I was interested in helping people 
learn how to use the product.  I'd never done formal instruction before 
(presented at conferences a few times, but that's different from 
constructing and delivering a 3-day classroom experience with hands-on 
labs).

>> The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money -
>> there should be something about the job or the company that makes you
>> /want/ to get up and go to work in the morning.
> 
> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
> EXCITED about doing a job...

A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people 
derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps 
define who they are.

For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job 
is like not being alive.

>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
> 
> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
> don't SELL anything!

Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm sure 
Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.

> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of these
> adverts that they purportedly sell?)

Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 19:42:53 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I also know someone who's the systems engineering team leader at City
>> College in Brighton, people who work at both Cambridge and Oxford
>> universities (including a research professor who's not on LinkedIn -
>> he's worked very hard to keep a very small online footprint).
> 
> That's impressive and everything, but... why would any of these people
> give a damn about me? I'm nobody.

You have skills.  Perhaps they need your skills.  If you're a fit for a 
job and can do it for a price they can afford, then they benefit from 
hiring you.

> (I'm also not sure what you mean by "one step away"...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

That's a good place to start.

>> Spend some time looking at the companies represented in your broader
>> network and see what looks like it might be moderately interesting.
>>
>> Then see what positions those companies have posted on LinkedIn, and if
>> you find something that looks interesting, ask the person you know
>> there to introduce you to the person they know ho works there.
> 
> It's literally news to me that LinkedIn lets you do this. I didn't
> realise it /had/ jobs listings, or company data, or anything remotely
> like that...

You've been away from three years, assuming it's never changing. <shrug>  
It's changed, and that's part of what's changed about it.  If you've put 
enough information in, it can even recommend jobs you may be interested 
in.

That's how I found the one I almost got in Portland.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what
>> makes them KEY words...
>
> And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see
> above).  It ain't rocket science.

Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

>>>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH
>>>> MY MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>>>
>>> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.
>>
>> Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...
>
> Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?
>
> Surely you've seen pictures of those places.

Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.

It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/ 
there...

>> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
>> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who works
>> for them; she reckons that should be my next target...
>
> That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows someone
> in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the department,
> odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that looks
> interesting to you.

I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position. Basically she told 
me to go look at their openings and see what they want. Apparently 
they're in the middle of a multi-million pound expansion plan. (Which 
seems bizarre, when you consider that IT'S NETWORK RAIL!)

>>> What distance would you consider?
>>
>> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
>> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.

> 25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next
> full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of
> the time.
>
> Something to consider.

Well, yeah, it's the distance I have to travel that's important, not 
where their registered office nominally is...

>> (Or maybe *I* am weird, which is why everybody knows me.)
>
> You do have some /interesting/ traits that make you memorable.  Not in a
> bad way, either.

I'm very spessial. :-/

>> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".
>
> Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the
> company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm interested
> in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the person you
> interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't work out, but
> I found another one that looks like a better fit, could you give me a
> hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening interview with the HR
> department in the past.
>
> Persistence pays off.
>
> Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not showing
> initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company, finding a
> position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to before there
> and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and I'd be a good
> fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in terms of what they
> do - show that you know what they do) - that is a good thing.

IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the 
end. I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've 
been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's 
contact details.

>> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company for
>> any reason other than the money.
>
> Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
> with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on
> something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a
> particular organisation.

There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in 
Haskell. The one in the UK consists of 3 people, and their registered 
office is somebody's house. If they want a Haskell programmer, they have 
the entire global community to choose from, and therefore they will not 
be hiring me.

Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These 
are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky 
jobs are open to us.

>>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
>>
>> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
>> not as if job openings grow on trees...
>
> You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.

Sure. I've also said, many times, that *I* have great difficulty finding 
job openings. Surely they must be out there, but apparently I suck at 
finding them.

>>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>>> interest.
>>
>> Sounds infeasible to me.
>
> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you are,
> and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.

I am /not/ working in London. End of story.

>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>
> A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people
> derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps
> define who they are.
>
> For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job
> is like not being alive.

Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...

>>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
>>
>> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
>> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
>> don't SELL anything!
>
> Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm sure
> Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.

I thought they closed down Docs? (Or am I thinking of Google Wave?)

>> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of these
>> adverts that they purportedly sell?)
>
> Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.

You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...

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On 10/06/2012 10:57 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

The engineering.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 6/10/2012 2:57, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:57:55 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's
>>> what makes them KEY words...
>>
>> And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see
>> above).  It ain't rocket science.
> 
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

I'm sure a rocket scientist could answer that question.  Closest I get is 
a couple of people I know with their PhDs and Masters degress in nuclear 
physics.

>> Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?
>>
>> Surely you've seen pictures of those places.
> 
> Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.
> 
> It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/
> there...

Did you see all of it?  There may well be places that meet your criteria 
that you haven't visited.  But you've closed your mind to even the idea 
of there being another place on the entire planet where you might be 
happy.

>>> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
>>> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who
>>> works for them; she reckons that should be my next target...
>>
>> That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows
>> someone in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the
>> department, odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that
>> looks interesting to you.
> 
> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position. Basically she told
> me to go look at their openings and see what they want. Apparently
> they're in the middle of a multi-million pound expansion plan. (Which
> seems bizarre, when you consider that IT'S NETWORK RAIL!)

(a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask, and 
(b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's hiring.

As they're expanding, it's a good time to look.  So go look already.

Very often in larger companies, the person who refers someone who gets 
hired gets a bonus (usually after the hiree has been on staff for 6 
months or so) - so there's incentive for staff to recruit from outside 
the company.  So not only could she help you get a new job, she might be 
eligible for a bonus for finding you - which would make it in her 
interest to help you as well.  (It's not a universal practice, but it's 
far from uncommon IME).

>>>> What distance would you consider?
>>>
>>> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
>>> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.
> 
>> 25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next
>> full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of
>> the time.
>>
>> Something to consider.
> 
> Well, yeah, it's the distance I have to travel that's important, not
> where their registered office nominally is...

Of course.  (BTW, that company's "registered office" - ie corporate HQ - 
was in Boston in my case.  Just the local office was 45 miles away).

>>> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".
>>
>> Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the
>> company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm
>> interested in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the
>> person you interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't
>> work out, but I found another one that looks like a better fit, could
>> you give me a hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening
>> interview with the HR department in the past.
>>
>> Persistence pays off.
>>
>> Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not
>> showing initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company,
>> finding a position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to
>> before there and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and
>> I'd be a good fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in
>> terms of what they do - show that you know what they do) - that is a
>> good thing.
> 
> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
> end. 

That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work 
for the applicant.

> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've
> been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's
> contact details.

You know someone at Unisys, you said.

So in my case - I know someone (a few people, actually) who work at 
VMware, and one who works at Mozy (both are divisions of EMC).  My friend 
at VMware pointed me to someone in their HR department - so now I know 
someone in the HR department there.

There was a position in a division called "SpringSource" that I was 
interested in and interviewed for, but in the end they found someone who 
met the job requirements and knew the product already (otherwise I was a 
very good fit for what they were looking for - a technical writer).

The next time I saw a job there that looked interesting, I pinged the guy 
in HR, and he said the job was in a different division so he couldn't 
help other than by giving me the name and e-mail address of his 
counterpart in that division.

That's how it's done.

>>> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company
>>> for any reason other than the money.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
>> with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on
>> something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a
>> particular organisation.
> 
> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
> Haskell. The one in the UK consists of 3 people, and their registered
> office is somebody's house. If they want a Haskell programmer, they have
> the entire global community to choose from, and therefore they will not
> be hiring me.

You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding 
something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a 
criteria for finding a job.

And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to 
code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people 
pound their heads on their desks.

A search on Google turned up this page:

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Jobs

Which lists 5 companies and some academic places.  That was with a 5-
second quick search on "Haskell programming jobs" and was the first hit 
(and I'm betting not every company that hires Haskell programmers has 
posted to that page).

If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a 
significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an 
exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.

> Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These
> are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky
> jobs are open to us.

Many people are happy in their jobs and like their jobs.  There's nothing 
particularly "cool" about being a technical instructor or a program 
manager - but those are both jobs I enjoyed doing.  I'm not going to be 
an astronaut or a F1 race car driver, so I've found what I'm good at and 
applied that to a number of different types of positions over the years.

>>>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>>>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
>>>
>>> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
>>> not as if job openings grow on trees...
>>
>> You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.
> 
> Sure. I've also said, many times, that *I* have great difficulty finding
> job openings. Surely they must be out there, but apparently I suck at
> finding them.

It starts with search criteria and methods.

>>>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>>>> interest.
>>>
>>> Sounds infeasible to me.
>>
>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
> 
> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.

I didn't say London.  But consider the possibility of working for a 
company based in London but working from home.  As you said earlier, it's 
not where the company is based but where you have to drive to.  If your 
commute is 25 feet to your home office, who cares if the office is in 
London - even if you have to go there once a month?

>>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>>
>> A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people
>> derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps
>> define who they are.
>>
>> For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job
>> is like not being alive.
> 
> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...

Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up in 
the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.

>>>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
>>>
>>> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
>>> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
>>> don't SELL anything!
>>
>> Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm
>> sure Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.
> 
> I thought they closed down Docs? (Or am I thinking of Google Wave?)

Yes, you're thinking of wave.  Docs has been incorporated into Google 
Drive now.

If you followed the news, you'd know that Google hosts e-mail and office 
suite software for businesses (it was/is called "Docs for Business", I 
think).

>>> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of
>>> these adverts that they purportedly sell?)
>>
>> Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.
> 
> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...

m-/

Do you use an ad blocker?

Jim

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>> Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.
>>
>> It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/
>> there...
>
> Did you see all of it?  There may well be places that meet your criteria
> that you haven't visited.  But you've closed your mind to even the idea
> of there being another place on the entire planet where you might be
> happy.

Well, in the case of Switzerland, it's the language barrier more than 
anything. (Yes, I realise that almost all Swiss people speak English 
better than I will ever speak French.)

>> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position.
>
> (a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask, and
> (b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's hiring.

Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if 
she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact fact?

> As they're expanding, it's a good time to look.  So go look already.

Sure.

>> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
>> end.
>
> That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work
> for the applicant.

I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...

>> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've
>> been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's
>> contact details.
>
> You know someone at Unisys, you said.

I don't think I did...

> So in my case - I know someone (a few people, actually) who work at
> VMware, and one who works at Mozy (both are divisions of EMC).  My friend
> at VMware pointed me to someone in their HR department - so now I know
> someone in the HR department there.
>
> There was a position in a division called "SpringSource" that I was
> interested in and interviewed for, but in the end they found someone who
> met the job requirements and knew the product already (otherwise I was a
> very good fit for what they were looking for - a technical writer).
>
> The next time I saw a job there that looked interesting, I pinged the guy
> in HR, and he said the job was in a different division so he couldn't
> help other than by giving me the name and e-mail address of his
> counterpart in that division.
>
> That's how it's done.

>> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
>> Haskell.
>
> You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding
> something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a
> criteria for finding a job.

Well, that's why I'm in computing, after all. But nobody is going to pay 
me to do what I like doing; they're going to pay me for the work that 
actually needs to be done, whether I enjoy that or not. And what 
actually needs to be done is almost by definition doomed to be something 
extremely dull. It's pointless to pretend that a mere /job/ is ever 
going to fire my imagination or anything like that.

> And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to
> code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people
> pound their heads on their desks.

If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is 
popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.

> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.

For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.

Things don't have to be popular in order to exist. /Products/ have to be 
popular to continue to be produced. But a piece of software? Doesn't 
have to be popular. Heck, I wrote Logic Box in Java. Logic Box is not 
popular. Yet, it exists. QED.

> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a
> significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an
> exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.

Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our 
earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)

>> Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These
>> are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky
>> jobs are open to us.
>
> Many people are happy in their jobs and like their jobs.  There's nothing
> particularly "cool" about being a technical instructor or a program
> manager - but those are both jobs I enjoyed doing.  I'm not going to be
> an astronaut or a F1 race car driver, so I've found what I'm good at and
> applied that to a number of different types of positions over the years.

There are people who don't hate their job, sure. But I can't imagine 
many people are truly /excited/ about their job. And in an interview, 
they don't ask you "so what parts of this job do you think /don't/ 
completely suck?"

>>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
>>
>> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.
>
> I didn't say London.

No, that's just where *all* of the main computer jobs are.

Actually, take out "computer" - that's where almost all the advertised 
jobs are.

> But consider the possibility of working for a
> company based in London but working from home.

That I could live with.

>> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...
>
> Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up in
> the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.

I'm not arguing that liking your job isn't a good thing. I'm arguing 
that it isn't a common thing.

>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>
> m-/
>
> Do you use an ad blocker?

Not until recently.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:16:44 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> Well, in the case of Switzerland, it's the language barrier more than
> anything. (Yes, I realise that almost all Swiss people speak English
> better than I will ever speak French.)

So then it's not really a language barrier, is it?

One of the companies I've applied to is based in Germany.  I don't speak 
German.  The position specifically calls for an English-speaking/writing 
candidate, though.

>>> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position.
>>
>> (a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask,
>> and (b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's
>> hiring.
> 
> Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if
> she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact
> fact?

Not necessarily.  In fact, if she were to get a referral bonus, I'd 
expect her not to tell you, but to take your info and submit it 
internally herself.

>>> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
>>> end.
>>
>> That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work
>> for the applicant.
> 
> I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...

We've talked about this before, Andy.  If you go through the front door, 
you're on the same level as everyone else applying for the job.  One way 
to get an advantage - and to show initiative - is to find other ways to 
get your info in front of the hiring manager.

>>> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've been
>>> interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's contact
>>> details.
>>
>> You know someone at Unisys, you said.
> 
> I don't think I did...

Um, not the person that you above said "I don't think she knows anybody 
in a hiring position."?

Yes, you did actually say you know someone who works at Unisys.  She may 
not be the person who's hiring, but she certainly is better placed to 
pass info along to a hiring manager than you are.

>>> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
>>> Haskell.
>>
>> You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding
>> something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a
>> criteria for finding a job.
> 
> Well, that's why I'm in computing, after all. But nobody is going to pay
> me to do what I like doing; they're going to pay me for the work that
> actually needs to be done, whether I enjoy that or not. And what
> actually needs to be done is almost by definition doomed to be something
> extremely dull. It's pointless to pretend that a mere /job/ is ever
> going to fire my imagination or anything like that.

What do you /like/ doing?  You might be surprised at what people will 
actually pay for.

>> And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to
>> code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people
>> pound their heads on their desks.
> 
> If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is
> popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you're competent in Haskell and that's what 
they're looking for, then being one of a smaller number of developers who 
write in a language that they're using is far, far better than being one 
of the billion people (yes, hyperbole, but there are a /lot/ of Java 
programmers out there) who can write code in Java.

>> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.
> 
> For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.

Yet it still exists.

> Things don't have to be popular in order to exist. /Products/ have to be
> popular to continue to be produced. But a piece of software? Doesn't
> have to be popular. Heck, I wrote Logic Box in Java. Logic Box is not
> popular. Yet, it exists. QED.

Now you're just being silly.

There are a fair number of companies that write and use Haskell for 
production systems.

>> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a
>> significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an
>> exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.
> 
> Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our
> earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)

"Nobody works for AT&T or Facebook" - are you /serious/?  AT&T is one of 
the larger companies in the world.  Facebook has a fairly significant 
sized staff.  Those server rooms don't take care of themselves, and 
people don't do it for no pay.

AT&T:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:T

Number of employees:  252,330

Facebook:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=fb

Number of employees:  3,539

Far from "nobody".

> There are people who don't hate their job, sure. But I can't imagine
> many people are truly /excited/ about their job. And in an interview,
> they don't ask you "so what parts of this job do you think /don't/
> completely suck?"

No, because they want to know what you're interested in, not what you 
hate about them.

So if programming in Haskell is something that interests you, you're not 
going to want to say "well, it wouldn't suck to write code in Haskell", 
you'd say "I'd enjoy writing code in Haskell."

>>>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>>>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
>>>
>>> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.
>>
>> I didn't say London.
> 
> No, that's just where *all* of the main computer jobs are.
> 
> Actually, take out "computer" - that's where almost all the advertised
> jobs are.

It makes sense there would be more jobs where there is a population 
center, that's true.

But you also might find something that wouldn't require a daily commute.  
It's worth looking into.

>> But consider the possibility of working for a company based in London
>> but working from home.
> 
> That I could live with.

So that would make it worth exploring the option.

>>> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...
>>
>> Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up
>> in the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.
> 
> I'm not arguing that liking your job isn't a good thing. I'm arguing
> that it isn't a common thing.

I've worked in companies with 200 employees and companies with 250,000 
employees.  Most of the people I have known in those companies have liked 
their jobs.

I had a conversation once with a software engineer in Bangalore who said 
that he took the job because he had to - he found it interesting, but he 
held a similar view to yours - that not everyone loves their job or has 
the potential to take a job that they love (in his case, he liked the job 
well enough and was good at it - but in India, that's where the money is, 
and he has a family to take care of, so that was the primary reason he 
took it).

But all the people I know in the UK also seem to really enjoy what they 
do.  Now I don't know everyone in the UK, probably not even enough to 
constitute a statistical sample - but of the ones I know, you're the only 
one who actively /hates/ his job.

>>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>>
>> m-/
>>
>> Do you use an ad blocker?
> 
> Not until recently.

Then you must not use Google a lot.  Oh, wait....

Jim

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