On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:57:55 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's
>>> what makes them KEY words...
>>
>> And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see
>> above).  It ain't rocket science.
> 
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

I'm sure a rocket scientist could answer that question.  Closest I get is 
a couple of people I know with their PhDs and Masters degress in nuclear 
physics.

>> Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?
>>
>> Surely you've seen pictures of those places.
> 
> Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.
> 
> It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/
> there...

Did you see all of it?  There may well be places that meet your criteria 
that you haven't visited.  But you've closed your mind to even the idea 
of there being another place on the entire planet where you might be 
happy.

>>> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
>>> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who
>>> works for them; she reckons that should be my next target...
>>
>> That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows
>> someone in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the
>> department, odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that
>> looks interesting to you.
> 
> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position. Basically she told
> me to go look at their openings and see what they want. Apparently
> they're in the middle of a multi-million pound expansion plan. (Which
> seems bizarre, when you consider that IT'S NETWORK RAIL!)

(a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask, and 
(b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's hiring.

As they're expanding, it's a good time to look.  So go look already.

Very often in larger companies, the person who refers someone who gets 
hired gets a bonus (usually after the hiree has been on staff for 6 
months or so) - so there's incentive for staff to recruit from outside 
the company.  So not only could she help you get a new job, she might be 
eligible for a bonus for finding you - which would make it in her 
interest to help you as well.  (It's not a universal practice, but it's 
far from uncommon IME).

>>>> What distance would you consider?
>>>
>>> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
>>> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.
> 
>> 25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next
>> full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of
>> the time.
>>
>> Something to consider.
> 
> Well, yeah, it's the distance I have to travel that's important, not
> where their registered office nominally is...

Of course.  (BTW, that company's "registered office" - ie corporate HQ - 
was in Boston in my case.  Just the local office was 45 miles away).

>>> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".
>>
>> Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the
>> company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm
>> interested in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the
>> person you interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't
>> work out, but I found another one that looks like a better fit, could
>> you give me a hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening
>> interview with the HR department in the past.
>>
>> Persistence pays off.
>>
>> Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not
>> showing initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company,
>> finding a position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to
>> before there and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and
>> I'd be a good fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in
>> terms of what they do - show that you know what they do) - that is a
>> good thing.
> 
> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
> end. 

That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work 
for the applicant.

> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've
> been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's
> contact details.

You know someone at Unisys, you said.

So in my case - I know someone (a few people, actually) who work at 
VMware, and one who works at Mozy (both are divisions of EMC).  My friend 
at VMware pointed me to someone in their HR department - so now I know 
someone in the HR department there.

There was a position in a division called "SpringSource" that I was 
interested in and interviewed for, but in the end they found someone who 
met the job requirements and knew the product already (otherwise I was a 
very good fit for what they were looking for - a technical writer).

The next time I saw a job there that looked interesting, I pinged the guy 
in HR, and he said the job was in a different division so he couldn't 
help other than by giving me the name and e-mail address of his 
counterpart in that division.

That's how it's done.

>>> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company
>>> for any reason other than the money.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
>> with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on
>> something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a
>> particular organisation.
> 
> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
> Haskell. The one in the UK consists of 3 people, and their registered
> office is somebody's house. If they want a Haskell programmer, they have
> the entire global community to choose from, and therefore they will not
> be hiring me.

You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding 
something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a 
criteria for finding a job.

And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to 
code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people 
pound their heads on their desks.

A search on Google turned up this page:

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Jobs

Which lists 5 companies and some academic places.  That was with a 5-
second quick search on "Haskell programming jobs" and was the first hit 
(and I'm betting not every company that hires Haskell programmers has 
posted to that page).

If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a 
significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an 
exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.

> Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These
> are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky
> jobs are open to us.

Many people are happy in their jobs and like their jobs.  There's nothing 
particularly "cool" about being a technical instructor or a program 
manager - but those are both jobs I enjoyed doing.  I'm not going to be 
an astronaut or a F1 race car driver, so I've found what I'm good at and 
applied that to a number of different types of positions over the years.

>>>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>>>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
>>>
>>> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
>>> not as if job openings grow on trees...
>>
>> You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.
> 
> Sure. I've also said, many times, that *I* have great difficulty finding
> job openings. Surely they must be out there, but apparently I suck at
> finding them.

It starts with search criteria and methods.

>>>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>>>> interest.
>>>
>>> Sounds infeasible to me.
>>
>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
> 
> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.

I didn't say London.  But consider the possibility of working for a 
company based in London but working from home.  As you said earlier, it's 
not where the company is based but where you have to drive to.  If your 
commute is 25 feet to your home office, who cares if the office is in 
London - even if you have to go there once a month?

>>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>>
>> A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people
>> derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps
>> define who they are.
>>
>> For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job
>> is like not being alive.
> 
> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...

Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up in 
the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.

>>>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
>>>
>>> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
>>> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
>>> don't SELL anything!
>>
>> Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm
>> sure Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.
> 
> I thought they closed down Docs? (Or am I thinking of Google Wave?)

Yes, you're thinking of wave.  Docs has been incorporated into Google 
Drive now.

If you followed the news, you'd know that Google hosts e-mail and office 
suite software for businesses (it was/is called "Docs for Business", I 
think).

>>> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of
>>> these adverts that they purportedly sell?)
>>
>> Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.
> 
> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...

m-/

Do you use an ad blocker?

Jim

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