On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:16:44 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> Well, in the case of Switzerland, it's the language barrier more than
> anything. (Yes, I realise that almost all Swiss people speak English
> better than I will ever speak French.)

So then it's not really a language barrier, is it?

One of the companies I've applied to is based in Germany.  I don't speak 
German.  The position specifically calls for an English-speaking/writing 
candidate, though.

>>> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position.
>>
>> (a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask,
>> and (b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's
>> hiring.
> 
> Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if
> she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact
> fact?

Not necessarily.  In fact, if she were to get a referral bonus, I'd 
expect her not to tell you, but to take your info and submit it 
internally herself.

>>> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
>>> end.
>>
>> That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work
>> for the applicant.
> 
> I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...

We've talked about this before, Andy.  If you go through the front door, 
you're on the same level as everyone else applying for the job.  One way 
to get an advantage - and to show initiative - is to find other ways to 
get your info in front of the hiring manager.

>>> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've been
>>> interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's contact
>>> details.
>>
>> You know someone at Unisys, you said.
> 
> I don't think I did...

Um, not the person that you above said "I don't think she knows anybody 
in a hiring position."?

Yes, you did actually say you know someone who works at Unisys.  She may 
not be the person who's hiring, but she certainly is better placed to 
pass info along to a hiring manager than you are.

>>> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
>>> Haskell.
>>
>> You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding
>> something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a
>> criteria for finding a job.
> 
> Well, that's why I'm in computing, after all. But nobody is going to pay
> me to do what I like doing; they're going to pay me for the work that
> actually needs to be done, whether I enjoy that or not. And what
> actually needs to be done is almost by definition doomed to be something
> extremely dull. It's pointless to pretend that a mere /job/ is ever
> going to fire my imagination or anything like that.

What do you /like/ doing?  You might be surprised at what people will 
actually pay for.

>> And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to
>> code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people
>> pound their heads on their desks.
> 
> If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is
> popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you're competent in Haskell and that's what 
they're looking for, then being one of a smaller number of developers who 
write in a language that they're using is far, far better than being one 
of the billion people (yes, hyperbole, but there are a /lot/ of Java 
programmers out there) who can write code in Java.

>> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.
> 
> For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.

Yet it still exists.

> Things don't have to be popular in order to exist. /Products/ have to be
> popular to continue to be produced. But a piece of software? Doesn't
> have to be popular. Heck, I wrote Logic Box in Java. Logic Box is not
> popular. Yet, it exists. QED.

Now you're just being silly.

There are a fair number of companies that write and use Haskell for 
production systems.

>> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a
>> significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an
>> exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.
> 
> Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our
> earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)

"Nobody works for AT&T or Facebook" - are you /serious/?  AT&T is one of 
the larger companies in the world.  Facebook has a fairly significant 
sized staff.  Those server rooms don't take care of themselves, and 
people don't do it for no pay.

AT&T:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:T

Number of employees:  252,330

Facebook:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=fb

Number of employees:  3,539

Far from "nobody".

> There are people who don't hate their job, sure. But I can't imagine
> many people are truly /excited/ about their job. And in an interview,
> they don't ask you "so what parts of this job do you think /don't/
> completely suck?"

No, because they want to know what you're interested in, not what you 
hate about them.

So if programming in Haskell is something that interests you, you're not 
going to want to say "well, it wouldn't suck to write code in Haskell", 
you'd say "I'd enjoy writing code in Haskell."

>>>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>>>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
>>>
>>> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.
>>
>> I didn't say London.
> 
> No, that's just where *all* of the main computer jobs are.
> 
> Actually, take out "computer" - that's where almost all the advertised
> jobs are.

It makes sense there would be more jobs where there is a population 
center, that's true.

But you also might find something that wouldn't require a daily commute.  
It's worth looking into.

>> But consider the possibility of working for a company based in London
>> but working from home.
> 
> That I could live with.

So that would make it worth exploring the option.

>>> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...
>>
>> Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up
>> in the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.
> 
> I'm not arguing that liking your job isn't a good thing. I'm arguing
> that it isn't a common thing.

I've worked in companies with 200 employees and companies with 250,000 
employees.  Most of the people I have known in those companies have liked 
their jobs.

I had a conversation once with a software engineer in Bangalore who said 
that he took the job because he had to - he found it interesting, but he 
held a similar view to yours - that not everyone loves their job or has 
the potential to take a job that they love (in his case, he liked the job 
well enough and was good at it - but in India, that's where the money is, 
and he has a family to take care of, so that was the primary reason he 
took it).

But all the people I know in the UK also seem to really enjoy what they 
do.  Now I don't know everyone in the UK, probably not even enough to 
constitute a statistical sample - but of the ones I know, you're the only 
one who actively /hates/ his job.

>>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>>
>> m-/
>>
>> Do you use an ad blocker?
> 
> Not until recently.

Then you must not use Google a lot.  Oh, wait....

Jim

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