>> The later films are much worse.
>
> I dunno, I sort of liked Ep. 3 ...

Perhaps you refer to the EP3 where the troubled young jedi discovers 
where the ominous threat to galactic peace is emanating from, decides 
not to kill him but report him instead, and then a few scenes later 
murders a member of the high council and joins the evil guy instead FOR 
NO APPARENT REASON AT ALL?

That EP3??

Seriously. I barely wanted to watch the film, since - let's face it - we 
already know exactly how it will end. There IS only one way it can end - 
the way EP4 started. But I was hoping that there might be, I don't know, 
some kind of /explanation/ for how the emperor tricked him into falling 
into darkness. But no... at one point, the guy just snaps and starts 
behaving in a completely illogical manner. The transition from troubled 
jedi to sith lord is near-instant. As is the transition to a 
fully-suited Darth Vader, for that matter.

Still, it's a free country...

Post a reply to this message

On 9/27/2011 8:17 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> The later films are much worse.
>>
>> I dunno, I sort of liked Ep. 3 ...
>
> Perhaps you refer to the EP3 where the troubled young jedi discovers
> where the ominous threat to galactic peace is emanating from, decides
> not to kill him but report him instead, and then a few scenes later
> murders a member of the high council and joins the evil guy instead FOR
> NO APPARENT REASON AT ALL?

Ok, so he was being a bit irrational...

> That EP3??
>

Honestly, The only part I remember was Vader before the black helmeted 
suit falling into a lake of lava, and being nearly burned alive. Beyond 
that, the rest is a blur. :)

> Seriously. I barely wanted to watch the film, since - let's face it - we
> already know exactly how it will end. There IS only one way it can end -
> the way EP4 started. But I was hoping that there might be, I don't know,
> some kind of /explanation/ for how the emperor tricked him into falling
> into darkness. But no... at one point, the guy just snaps and starts
> behaving in a completely illogical manner. The transition from troubled
> jedi to sith lord is near-instant. As is the transition to a
> fully-suited Darth Vader, for that matter.

Yyy... uh. hm. Well, you know, he must have had some really deep rooted 
psychological problems. Not unlike some people I know ..

>
> Still, it's a free country...
For most, it is ...

-- 
~Mike

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 14:17:19 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> But no... at one point, the guy just snaps and starts behaving in a
> completely illogical manner.

I think the point of ep3 was that with all the stress Annikin was under, 
his reaction was perfectly rational and logical.

A good actor who plays a 'bad guy' in films usually will study quite a 
lot to understand the character's underlying motivations.  Just look at 
interviews with Christopher Lee about playing Sauruman in LOTR for the 
kind of insight that's applied to playing a role like that.

Another good example is William B. Davis in The X-Files.  He saw his 
character (the "Cigarette Smoking Man") as one of the good guys, and had 
good reason to.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> Jar Jar Binks is obviously one of the most obnoxiously irritating,
> >> moronic characters in the history of film. And yet, there are people
> >> alive today who actually /liked/ him. WTF, people?!
> >
> > It's amazing, isn't it?

> I would be more inclined to use words like "baffling", or maybe 
> "frightening"...

  Why couldn't someone like a funny character? And one doesn't need to
even be infantile to do that. (I don't consider myself too infantile.)

> > And yet, we can see in Ep. II He's now part of
> > the galactic counsel (or whatever that governing body is...) He got
> > tossed out of his own society for being obnoxiously clumsy and moronic,
> > and gets on the galactic counsel!?? There are deep, deep problems in
> > that galaxy far, far away.

> Wasn't he also promoted to "bom-baad genaaral" by his own society too?

  He was actually characterized as a good diplomat who helped unite the
two quarreling civilizations on the planet. Thus it makes sense that he
would be a representative of his people. This characterization didn't come
through very clearly, though (well, at all, really), which can be attributed
to substandard writing (something that can be seen throughout the trilogy.)

  Making him a general didn't make much sense, though. He may be good at
diplomacy, not at leading an army. (Again, either substandard writing or
idiocy of the gungan leader.)

> Basically, Quigon says "this gungan may be of use". Despite the 
> self-evident fact that he has NO USE AT ALL. It's clearly and obviously 
> a transparent ploy to keep him in the story, because he's supposed to be 
> the comic relief character. (Trouble is, comics are supposed to be FUNNY...)

  As said, he was characterized as a diplomat (at least in principle), so
in that context it makes sense.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/27/2011 3:13 AM, Invisible wrote:

> > The later films are much worse.
> >

> I dunno, I sort of liked Ep. 3 ...

  The problem with that, and in fact the entire trilogy, is that there are
some good ideas underneath, but for some strange reason the writing was
quite subpar, which more or less destroyed all the good ideas. With better
writing it could have been much better.

  As an example, episode 3 does not really convey very well *why* Anakin
chose the dark side. There are bits and pieces here and there, but it just
gives a feeling that he switched sides for no good reason at all, and it
makes no sense. A much better script could have made that plot point much
more evident, logical and dramatic.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

>> Wasn't he also promoted to "bom-baad genaaral" by his own society too?
>
>    He was actually characterized as a good diplomat who helped unite the
> two quarreling civilizations on the planet. Thus it makes sense that he
> would be a representative of his people. This characterization didn't come
> through very clearly, though (well, at all, really), which can be attributed
> to substandard writing (something that can be seen throughout the trilogy.)

Substandard writing I could agree on.

 From what I can see, it was Quigon who decided to ask the Gungans for 
transport, and Amidala who decided to ask for their army. If anyone is a 
good diplomat, it's Amidala. But anyway...

>    Making him a general didn't make much sense, though. He may be good at
> diplomacy, not at leading an army. (Again, either substandard writing or
> idiocy of the gungan leader.)

It's not especially logical, but it's plausible. Lots of companies, for 
example, will take the very best engineer in the team and promote them 
to team manager. Because, you know, being the best engineer makes you 
the best manager, doesn't it? (Hint: no, it doesn't.) The promotion is a 
"reward" for being the best guy on the team. But, logically, it's 
actually not a very good idea.

>> Basically, Quigon says "this gungan may be of use". Despite the
>> self-evident fact that he has NO USE AT ALL. It's clearly and obviously
>> a transparent ploy to keep him in the story, because he's supposed to be
>> the comic relief character. (Trouble is, comics are supposed to be FUNNY...)
>
>    As said, he was characterized as a diplomat (at least in principle), so
> in that context it makes sense.

I doubt that Quigon could have known that he was a good diplomat 45 
seconds after having met him. Even if he really was...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 27/09/2011 09:58 PM, Warp wrote:

>    As an example, episode 3 does not really convey very well *why* Anakin
> chose the dark side. There are bits and pieces here and there, but it just
> gives a feeling that he switched sides for no good reason at all, and it
> makes no sense. A much better script could have made that plot point much
> more evident, logical and dramatic.

What he just said.

IMHO, the Jedi Council were complete dicks. It's not surprising that 
Anakin was seriously hacked off about it. It's also clear that in spite 
of that, he still felt loyal to them, for whatever else they might do, 
they are ultimately a force for good. It's also clear that the Emperor 
was pushing his buttons all along, as he always does, to manipulate 
people according to his own evil plans.

But then, for no adaquately explored reason, Anakin just suddenly swaps 
sides. And then they have a big fight. WTF?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> But no... at one point, the guy just snaps and starts behaving in a
>> completely illogical manner.
>
> I think the point of ep3 was that with all the stress Annikin was under,
> his reaction was perfectly rational and logical.

It's clear Anakin was being manipulated. It's clear the Jedi Council 
were less than supportive towards him, and he deeply resented it. It's 
clear he was deeply conflicted. And it's also clear that despite 
everything, he still felt loyal to the Jedi.

Until that one scene where suddenly, for no apparent reason, he just 
switches sides and never looks back. It's as if the writers ran out of 
time to write the story properly or something...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I doubt that Quigon could have known that he was a good diplomat 45 
> seconds after having met him. Even if he really was...

  Quigon is a jedi.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:05:04 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> But no... at one point, the guy just snaps and starts behaving in a
>>> completely illogical manner.
>>
>> I think the point of ep3 was that with all the stress Annikin was
>> under, his reaction was perfectly rational and logical.
> 
> It's clear Anakin was being manipulated. It's clear the Jedi Council
> were less than supportive towards him, and he deeply resented it. It's
> clear he was deeply conflicted. And it's also clear that despite
> everything, he still felt loyal to the Jedi.

He was manipulated by both sides.

> Until that one scene where suddenly, for no apparent reason, he just
> switches sides and never looks back. It's as if the writers ran out of
> time to write the story properly or something...

Well, no, he eventually reached a point where, as you say, "something 
snapped" - and the pressure applied because of the death of his mother 
and his perception that Obi-Wan was betraying him pushed him over the 
edge.

In real life, people can take only so much before they break.  Annikin 
reached his breaking point, and the push took him more towards the 'dark 
side' than not - as he was manipulated through his emotions and his 
emotions ultimately took over.

Luke made a similar journey, but proved to be stronger than his father, 
and chose not to go to the dark side.

Jim

Post a reply to this message