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On 16/09/2011 6:17 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>
>>> On 16/09/2011 5:57 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Training that could actually resolve some of those security issues by
>>>> having competent staff.
>>>
>>> You're asking a lot there, Jim. ;-)
>>
>> Indeed, I am - but things could get interesting here job-wise, as I've
>> found a job where I might actually have to solve that one. :)
>
> (Not as in "been given an offer for", rather I found a posting that I'm
> applying for)
>
Good luck with that one. I hope that you can deliver on time and in
budget ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 9/16/2011 10:15, Jim Henderson wrote:
> not the same as "running a Linux server" in my book.
I agree. That's precisely my point. Saying "you never have to reboot a
Linux machine except for kernel upgrades" is incorrect. It assumes the box
has all the tools it needs to manage it without rebooting, and it assumes
your software environment isn't hardened against you manipulating it in the
ways described.
> That doesn't mean a reboot is *necessary*, which is what we were
> discussing.
OK, so how do you upgrade your PRL without rebooting your phone? My point is
that claiming "you don't have to" assumes a whole bunch of facts that
aren't true just because you're running Linux.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:00:28 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 9/16/2011 10:15, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> not the same as "running a Linux server" in my book.
>
> I agree. That's precisely my point. Saying "you never have to reboot a
> Linux machine except for kernel upgrades" is incorrect. It assumes the
> box has all the tools it needs to manage it without rebooting, and it
> assumes your software environment isn't hardened against you
> manipulating it in the ways described.
You specified servers and desktops - not appliance devices.
I also never said "you never have to reboot a Linux machine except for
kernel updates". I said "you usually never have to reboot a Linux
machine except for kernel updates". There's a world of difference in
those two statements.
I also very specifically stated that if you're dealing with zombie
processes, a Linux system *requires* a reboot to the best of my knowledge.
>> That doesn't mean a reboot is *necessary*, which is what we were
>> discussing.
>
> OK, so how do you upgrade your PRL without rebooting your phone? My
> point is that claiming "you don't have to" assumes a whole bunch of
> facts that aren't true just because you're running Linux.
I've never had a need to, so I don't know. Presumably you could stop a
service or unload/reload a driver, or drop to single user mode and then
go back to the default runlevel.
Jim
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:10:30 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 16/09/2011 6:17 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 16/09/2011 5:57 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> Training that could actually resolve some of those security issues
>>>>> by having competent staff.
>>>>
>>>> You're asking a lot there, Jim. ;-)
>>>
>>> Indeed, I am - but things could get interesting here job-wise, as I've
>>> found a job where I might actually have to solve that one. :)
>>
>> (Not as in "been given an offer for", rather I found a posting that I'm
>> applying for)
>>
>>
> Good luck with that one. I hope that you can deliver on time and in
> budget ;-)
A little late on the "on time" bit (I had wanted to be back to work about
2 months ago - but only in a position that was right for me), but yeah, I
think this could work out well once I get the resume into the right
person's hands. The trick is making sure it gets to the right person
rather than going through "the front door".
Jim
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On 9/16/2011 12:57, Jim Henderson wrote:
> You specified servers and desktops - not appliance devices.
No I didn't. I was responding to someone else's comment of
>> Heathen! Linux machines do not need to be rebooted. Ever.
That didn't say "Linux machines with a full development environment
installed and to which you have root access never have to be rebooted."
That's my point here. :-)
> I've never had a need to, so I don't know. Presumably you could stop a
> service or unload/reload a driver, or drop to single user mode and then
> go back to the default runlevel.
Cool. How do I drop to single-user mode on my cell phone?
Again, you're making assumptions that the linux in your phone (or your cable
box or your credit card terminal) is like the linux in your desktop or
server machine.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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Am 16.09.2011 19:14, schrieb Francois Labreque:
> Le 2011-09-15 22:10, Darren New a écrit :
>> On 9/15/2011 18:19, Francois Labreque wrote:
>>> Heathen! Linux machines do not need to be rebooted. Ever.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure you're wrong on that one.
>>
> A previous version of that post had a smiley at the end. I guess it got
> lost during the vetting process.
Id didn't get lost - it just hid between the lines. I swear I can hear
it chuckling.
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:22:55 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 9/16/2011 12:57, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> You specified servers and desktops - not appliance devices.
>
> No I didn't. I was responding to someone else's comment of
>
> >> Heathen! Linux machines do not need to be rebooted. Ever.
>
> That didn't say "Linux machines with a full development environment
> installed and to which you have root access never have to be rebooted."
> That's my point here. :-)
That's fair. You wrote your reply to a message I wrote, so clearly I
thought you were responding to what I said.
>> I've never had a need to, so I don't know. Presumably you could stop a
>> service or unload/reload a driver, or drop to single user mode and then
>> go back to the default runlevel.
>
> Cool. How do I drop to single-user mode on my cell phone?
Probably depends on the phone. Like I said, I've never needed to find
out, so I don't know.
> Again, you're making assumptions that the linux in your phone (or your
> cable box or your credit card terminal) is like the linux in your
> desktop or server machine.
Linux is a kernel. I'm not making assumptions about the kernel.
Jim
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On 9/16/2011 21:36, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's fair. You wrote your reply to a message I wrote, so clearly I
> thought you were responding to what I said.
I still never specified servers at all, and I only mentioned desktops in a
disclaimer. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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On 9/16/2011 21:36, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Linux is a kernel. I'm not making assumptions about the kernel.
Incidentally, in the real world, nobody cares about the kernel. If you have
10,000 airline agents hitting your database from all around the world, and
your database server takes 10 minutes to restart and recache its indexes
after you upgrade the code, nobody really cares if the kernel survived the
upgrade or not. :-) That's what always amuses me about such discussions.
Indeed, people don't really even care if it was the database down or the
router provided by your ISP. A backhoe outside your door is going to screw
up your uptime stats as much as a kernel upgrade will.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:13:26 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 9/16/2011 21:36, Jim Henderson wrote:
> > Linux is a kernel. I'm not making assumptions about the kernel.
>
> Incidentally, in the real world, nobody cares about the kernel. If you
> have 10,000 airline agents hitting your database from all around the
> world, and your database server takes 10 minutes to restart and recache
> its indexes after you upgrade the code, nobody really cares if the
> kernel survived the upgrade or not. :-) That's what always amuses me
> about such discussions.
Certainly - and the question of whether it has to be rebooted or not is
somewhat mooted by that point. I can get a lot of things to restart
properly by just going to single user mode and back to runlevel 3 or 5,
but if services are offline, that's still downtime.
Server uptime isn't a great measure of availability. Service uptime is
more meaningful.
Just like the neverending debate about which Linux desktop environment is
the "best". I've used pretty much all of them, and have come to the
conclusion that the DE is pretty irrelevant - if I am using a computer,
I'm using it for the apps, not the DE. If I'm focused on the DE so much
that I "hate" KDE or GNOME or LXDE or whatever - then I'm obviously not
using the computer as a tool to get actual work done.
> Indeed, people don't really even care if it was the database down or the
> router provided by your ISP. A backhoe outside your door is going to
> screw up your uptime stats as much as a kernel upgrade will.
Absolutely.
Jim
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