Neeum Zawan wrote:
> given the significantly cheaper alternatives.

Me!  Because I had starsunmumble before that, paid them for a year of 
service, and had them go bankrupt out from under me two months later.

There's actually quality issues here, too.  Plus, arguing about which 
individual item is cheapest only works for commodity products. Products with 
a network effect are, by definition, those where the quality is affected by 
how many people use it.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
    back to version 1.0."
   "We've done that already. We call it 2.0."

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On 07/10/09 10:07, Chambers wrote:
> The problem is, people don't *care* about features (outside of a core
> group that likes bragging rights, of course). Features don't sell, and

	The thing is, people don't care about either. They just want a *good* 
car. For many people, a good car is not about either - it's about what 
they think the world thinks is a good car.

>> Good marketing works. Content of said marketing is not really that
>> important.
>
> Ahem... good marketing works *because* of its content, doesn't it? ;)

	Not necessarily. Vonage has the market not because of the content of 
their ads, but because of the amount of ads and the places they advertised.

> Not just brand name recognition; I was literally unable to find a
> competitor that could match Vonage's prices when I shopped around.

	I can assure you that since _I_ got VoIP 4-5 years ago, there have 
*always* been similar providers who charged less than Vonage.

	But this whole line of argument wasn't my point. Most of the people I 
know who got Vonage got it because they wanted something reliable, and 
assumed that the cheaper competitors have poor experience, etc. Yet, 
perhaps unlike you, they didn't do a single bit of research to see if 
their assumptions had validity.

-- 
BASIC isn't; C stands for Confusing...


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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On 07/10/09 11:30, Darren New wrote:
> Me! Because I had starsunmumble before that, paid them for a year of
> service, and had them go bankrupt out from under me two months later.
>
> There's actually quality issues here, too. Plus, arguing about which
> individual item is cheapest only works for commodity products. Products
> with a network effect are, by definition, those where the quality is
> affected by how many people use it.

	Yes, but I wasn't saying price should be the only factor. When I signed 
up, Vonage was known to have poor quality. Yet people still flocked to 
it in those days.

-- 
BASIC isn't; C stands for Confusing...


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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Warp escreveu:
>   Somehow it seems that Nintendo has understood some basic truth about
> computing: It's not processing power that sells. Consider this:
> 
>   Xbox 360: Triple-core CPU at 3.2 GHz, 512 MB of RAM.
>   Units sold: 30 million.
> 
>   PS3: A 3.2 GHz Cell microprocessor, which consists of one PowerPC-based
> core and six SPE cores, 256 MB of RAM.
>   Units sold: 22 million.
> 
>   Nintendo Wii: A single-core CPU at 729 MHz, 88 MB of RAM.
>   Units sold: 50 million.
> 
> 
>   PlayStation Portable: 333 MHz CPU, 32 MB of RAM (plus 2 MB of GPU RAM).
>   Units sold: 50 million.
> 
>   Nintendo DS: A 67 MHz main CPU and a 33 MHz coprocessor, 4 MB of RAM.
>   Units sold: 100 million.

Nintendo has been about 2 generations out of the spotlights with the N64 
and GC.  They realized they couldn't compete hardware-wise and took the 
easy route with a gamble:  let's repackage a slightly beefed-up Gamecube 
hardware under new plastic plus a new motion sensing controller and 
launch it with a truly silly name, silly games and try to appeal to a 
new, familiar public rather than hardcore gamers.  Oh, and let's also 
make it the cheaper of the consoles, so that we profit a lot from our 
cheap, obsolete hardware while the competitors struggle with their 
expensive new anti-social machines for geeks.

Guess what?  The gamble worked out!  The competitors seemingly didn't 
see both an economic turmoil coming, nor the fact that running HD games 
on a conventional CRT TV wouldn't be worth the trouble so that apart 
from the expensive console you also need expensive HDTVs, nor the fact 
that a broad new public to videogames are ok with silly old 8-bit 
gameplay under N64-level graphics as long as it's fun and silly enough 
to play with friends and parents.  Wheee!!!

> NES: 1985 (1986 in Canada)
> SNES: 1991
> N64: 1996
> GameCube: 2001
> Wii: 2006
> 
>   Do we see a pattern here?-)

6 years is the typical useful life cycle of a console.  Useful in that, 
different from PC games, console developers benefit from many optimized 
techniques evolved through time and actually extract every last bit of 
power from the hardware -- some of the best games and swann songs for 
the console come that late.

BTW, I left Nintendo behind after FAIL 64 and its lack of variety in 
worthy games.  It's ok when people are ok with just Wii Sports, Wii 
Sports Resort, Wii Aqua Sports, Wii Beach Sports, Mario, Mario 2, New 
Mario Wii etc.  Not for me.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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nemesis escreveu:
> Warp escreveu:
>>   Somehow it seems that Nintendo has understood some basic truth about
>> computing: It's not processing power that sells. Consider this:
>>
>>   Xbox 360: Triple-core CPU at 3.2 GHz, 512 MB of RAM.
>>   Units sold: 30 million.
>>
>>   PS3: A 3.2 GHz Cell microprocessor, which consists of one PowerPC-based
>> core and six SPE cores, 256 MB of RAM.
>>   Units sold: 22 million.
>>
>>   Nintendo Wii: A single-core CPU at 729 MHz, 88 MB of RAM.
>>   Units sold: 50 million.
>>
>>
>>   PlayStation Portable: 333 MHz CPU, 32 MB of RAM (plus 2 MB of GPU RAM).
>>   Units sold: 50 million.
>>
>>   Nintendo DS: A 67 MHz main CPU and a 33 MHz coprocessor, 4 MB of RAM.
>>   Units sold: 100 million.
> 
> Nintendo has been about 2 generations out of the spotlights with the N64 
> and GC.  They realized they couldn't compete hardware-wise and took the 
> easy route with a gamble:  let's repackage a slightly beefed-up Gamecube 
> hardware under new plastic plus a new motion sensing controller and 
> launch it with a truly silly name, silly games and try to appeal to a 
> new, familiar public rather than hardcore gamers.  Oh, and let's also 
> make it the cheaper of the consoles, so that we profit a lot from our 
> cheap, obsolete hardware while the competitors struggle with their 
> expensive new anti-social machines for geeks.
> 
> Guess what?  The gamble worked out!  The competitors seemingly didn't 
> see both an economic turmoil coming, nor the fact that running HD games 
> on a conventional CRT TV wouldn't be worth the trouble so that apart 
> from the expensive console you also need expensive HDTVs, nor the fact 
> that a broad new public to videogames are ok with silly old 8-bit 
> gameplay under N64-level graphics as long as it's fun and silly enough 
> to play with friends and parents.  Wheee!!!
> 
>> NES: 1985 (1986 in Canada)
>> SNES: 1991
>> N64: 1996
>> GameCube: 2001
>> Wii: 2006
>>
>>   Do we see a pattern here?-)
> 
> 6 years is the typical useful life cycle of a console.  Useful in that, 
> different from PC games, console developers benefit from many optimized 
> techniques evolved through time and actually extract every last bit of 
> power from the hardware -- some of the best games and swann songs for 
> the console come that late.
> 
> BTW, I left Nintendo behind after FAIL 64 and its lack of variety in 
> worthy games.  It's ok when people are ok with just Wii Sports, Wii 
> Sports Resort, Wii Aqua Sports, Wii Beach Sports, Mario, Mario 2, New 
> Mario Wii etc.  Not for me.

I also have to say part of the success for the Nintendo brand again is 
the same reason for its demise during 2 generations:  its loyal fans 
during the NES and SNES grew older during the N64 and GC, had to get a 
work, house, marriage and are now back to gaming, thanks to their kids. 
  And they go to the store and see the brand for their childhood 
colored-tinted memories and go for it, without looking back.  They 
mostly complete ignore the Playstation generation anyway and, thus, 
16-bit, raw gameplay without sophisticated storylines and presentation 
is a non-issue.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> I also have to say part of the success for the Nintendo brand again is 
> the same reason for its demise during 2 generations:  its loyal fans 
> during the NES and SNES grew older during the N64 and GC, had to get a 
> work, house, marriage and are now back to gaming, thanks to their kids. 

  I have heard that many people complained about the N64 and GC controllers,
and that *might* be at least partially responsible for the lesser popularity
of those two consoles. If you look at those controllers, they look quite
painful to use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N64_controller.jpg

  Ok, it might be usable for the D-pad, but when you need to switch to the
analog stick, it looks really awkward. The D-pad and the analog stick seem
to basically be mutually exclusive: Either use one or the other, but not
both at the same time, or even in quick succession. Also the location of
the analog stick seems awkward.

  Sony's DualShock controller, while maybe slightly ascetic compared to
the more modern ergonomic versions of that controller type, has more the
right idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DualShock.jpg

  It's easy to switch between the D-pad and the analog stick by simply
moving your thumb from one to the other. And while having *two* such sticks
might seem rather self-evident and obvious nowadays, it was actually quite
an ingenuous idea which helped the playability of many, many games.

  Nintendo tried to copy the idea for their GameCube controller, but did
it horribly wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NGC_Gamecube.jpg

  The D-pad is positioned in a really awkward place, and it's hard to use.
Likewise for the analog stick on the right. Also the X and Y buttons are
positioned awkwardly.

  I suppose Nintendo learned its lesson and instead of trying to copy
others' controller designs, they created their own for the Wii. It seems
to have been a success.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp escreveu:
> nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> I also have to say part of the success for the Nintendo brand again is 
>> the same reason for its demise during 2 generations:  its loyal fans 
>> during the NES and SNES grew older during the N64 and GC, had to get a 
>> work, house, marriage and are now back to gaming, thanks to their kids. 
> 
>   I have heard that many people complained about the N64 and GC controllers,
> and that *might* be at least partially responsible for the lesser popularity
> of those two consoles. If you look at those controllers, they look quite
> painful to use:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N64_controller.jpg

Low sales because of controller?!  First time I hear it.

I had a N64 from day 1.  The controller was very comfortable.  The 
analog stick is also a lot more precise than both analogs from the 
dual-shock.  I heard people saying the same from GC, but then, those are 
Nintendoids without hope.

What really spell FAIL to me was the too few games.  That I can see 
hurting sales of the platform overall.

>   I suppose Nintendo learned its lesson and instead of trying to copy
> others' controller designs, they created their own for the Wii. It seems
> to have been a success.

Hmm, it seems you got it wrong:  Nintendo is a trend setter, not the 
contrary.  They were the ones to come up with the d-pad, 4 buttons, 
shoulder buttons, analog stick and, now, motion sensing controller.  The 
others follow suit.  That said, I wish their games had evolved too.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> >   I suppose Nintendo learned its lesson and instead of trying to copy
> > others' controller designs, they created their own for the Wii. It seems
> > to have been a success.

> Hmm, it seems you got it wrong:  Nintendo is a trend setter, not the 
> contrary.  They were the ones to come up with the d-pad, 4 buttons, 
> shoulder buttons, analog stick and, now, motion sensing controller.  The 
> others follow suit.  That said, I wish their games had evolved too.

  I was talking about the GameCube controller, which was quite clearly
trying to copy the idea from the DualShock controller.

  Speaking of controllers, I own this one (for the PC):
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/gaming/pc_gaming/gamepads/devices/264&cl=US,EN

  It's the most comfortable controller I have ever tried. It's also sturdy,
balanced and ergonomic. It feels quite good for games designed to be played
with a game controller.

  (Its only drawback is that it uses some special force feedback technology,
as it AFAIK has *two* motors inside, and there seems to often be compatiblity
issues with many games, meaning that force feedback just doesn't work with
many games no matter what you try to do. Well, it's only a minor issue.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Chambers wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> So, they can do limited function, single task stuff well.. like DOS. lol
> 
> No, they can do something well if the requirements are strict enough.
> 
> MS makes their software good enough for the people who have to use it. 
> That's one of the reasons the perception of Visual Studio is so much 
> better than the perception of Windows in general... developers have 
> higher standards than the average user, so MS makes a better product for 
> them.
> 
Well, true enough. Though, a note one VS.. One feature it has that no 
other editor suite for Windows really supports (or as extensively), is 
"design time", as in edit objects, in place. There is a reason for this. 
The code needed to "react to" design mode flags in a window or other 
object is well documented. The means by which to "turn on" design mode 
for a window... I spent 2 years looking for code, everyplace from their 
sites, to the official API manuals you can buy, to just about every 
other place you can think of. Its not documented in any discoverable sense.

Having a product that does something that no one else's does, because 
you intentionally prevent anyone else from doing it the same way, isn't 
a selling point, as far as I am concerned. That said, VS, on my install, 
had more than a few annoyances, not the least being that all its 
frakking documentation assumed that you where going to code stuff in 
either C++/C# or in VB, and that if you where using VB, you didn't need 
either headers for the API flags, at all, never mind documentation on 
them. And, it was hardly bugless...

But, yeah. Things that perform one, clear, and specific task, they do 
well with, sort of, except for the things they leave out, due to you not 
needing them, from their view, or don't work as expected, or don't work 
at all. How many versions of the XBox 360 cooling thing they go through 
before figuring out to a) leave the fans on until it cooled off, and b) 
it got hot enough to melt the solder points on the GPU? 3-4 I think.. 
But, otherwise, great machine. lol Just hope a car with the their tech 
in it doesn't have a similar issue. ;)

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Invisible wrote:
> Which users wanted their PCs to get hacked just by being connected to 
> the Internet? Who wanted a word processor that constantly crashes? Which 
> people thought it was funny if a power cut results in permanent data 
> loss and possible an unusable PC?
> 

Almost like the OneTouch 3. Standby (or shut down drives to save power) 
sometimes leaves the drive *unable* to power up again and access files. 
You have to unplug it, then plug it back in again (meaning the power 
cord), then wait for it to "unmangle" the 1-2 files that where in an 
open/unsaved state before it went into standby. Then there is its backup 
software. V2 backed up "everything". V3... only backs up documents, 
archives and executables, which doesn't include Firefox bookmarks, 
settings files, some save games, and a whole host of other things. So, 
if you had to restore, half your applications wouldn't work, since the 
"critical" files you actually need from them are all missing in the 
backup...

Yeah. Some companies seem to have their own internal logic, with respect 
to what they "define" as "user experience"... Oddly, it never seems to 
quite match my definition. :p


-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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