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From: thuthon
Subject: Povray crashes
Date: 4 Sep 2006 07:45:01
Message: <web.44fc11a49f77844019b850880@news.povray.org>
I installed povray 3.6 onto my macBook pro. Whenever I try to open it, it
starts opening and goes as far as showing sort of a tool box named
'Messages'
and another named 'Templates'. Then it just vanishes and gives this
message:- "The application POV-Ray Mac 3.6 quit unexpectedly". I was
wondering if anyone could help me in this matter.

I have very little experience with povray and I've only worked on it on a
Linux based machine.

Thanks


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From: Allan
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:15:01
Message: <web.45082de8b2080fe23bfe02f20@news.povray.org>
I just tried POV-Ray 3.6 on an Intel iMac and I get the same crash.  (It
works great on the "old" G5.)  A look at the crash log shows that the crash
happens in LaunchCFMApp.  It would appear that POV-Ray 3.6 is not yet ready
for the Intel Macs?  It should run on the Intels under Rosetta but maybe
the old Mac CFM (Code Fragment Manager, kind of like DLL's in Windows)
doesn't work under Rosetta?

This is disapointing to me because I have a nice MacPro (2 Xeon 64bit CPUs)
on order due to arrive in three weeks!!

If anyone on the POV-Ray team needs help porting to the Intel Mac please
send me a note.  I do not have a lot of spare time but I do want POV-Ray to
run on my Intel Mac.

-Allan



"thuthon" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> I installed povray 3.6 onto my macBook pro. Whenever I try to open it, it
> starts opening and goes as far as showing sort of a tool box named
> 'Messages'
> and another named 'Templates'. Then it just vanishes and gives this
> message:- "The application POV-Ray Mac 3.6 quit unexpectedly". I was
> wondering if anyone could help me in this matter.
>
> I have very little experience with povray and I've only worked on it on a
> Linux based machine.
>
> Thanks


Post a reply to this message

From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:40:14
Message: <4508346e$1@news.povray.org>
Allan wrote:
> I just tried POV-Ray 3.6 on an Intel iMac and I get the same crash.  (It
> works great on the "old" G5.)  A look at the crash log shows that the crash
> happens in LaunchCFMApp.  It would appear that POV-Ray 3.6 is not yet ready
> for the Intel Macs?  It should run on the Intels under Rosetta but maybe
> the old Mac CFM (Code Fragment Manager, kind of like DLL's in Windows)
> doesn't work under Rosetta?
>
No, the problem are the countless bugs in Apple's software emulator. If the
PowerPC emulator is crashing, that is *Apple's* problem, not POV-Ray's.
Report problems with crashes to Apple. POV-Ray is a perfectly working and
cleanly written PowerPC application, and it does run on every real PowerPC
processor. On the other hand, the emulator Apple supplies is known to have
problems, and they won't get fixed unless Apple is told they exist.

Report it to Apple, or nothing will change. Unlike with the much better
planned 68K to PowerPC transition, Apple has neglected to develop a working
debugger for the PowerPC emulation environment called "Rosetta" and instead
rushed out unstable systems to end users. Even today there is no reasonable
way to debug within Rosetta, except using a barely working hack documented
by Apple to use an unreliable low-level command-line-based debugger with
plenty of restrictions.

BTW, effectively the poor development environments available, and the rushed
transition is also the reason why major software vendors (i.e. Adobe) have
been unable to deliver native software yet. There is just no way to properly
develop and test on the x86 PCs sold by Apple yet.

As for POV-Ray, do not expect a native version earlier than 2008 or as part
of POV-Ray 4.0, whichever comes first. In the meantime, you can always
compile and run the Unix version natively on Mac OS X.

	Thorsten, POV-Team


Post a reply to this message

From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:43:04
Message: <45083518$1@news.povray.org>
Allan wrote:
> I just tried POV-Ray 3.6 on an Intel iMac and I get the same crash.  (It
> works great on the "old" G5.)  A look at the crash log shows that the crash
> happens in LaunchCFMApp.

Please note that LaunchCFMApp is an Apple application and has noting to do
with POV-Ray (other than that LaunchCFMApp is an application-loader under
Rosetta), nor is POV-Ray in any control over its use, bugs, or malfunction.
If LaunchCFMApp crashes, you should report it to Apple. there is nothing
that POV-Ray can do to prevent Apple supplied software from crashing.

	Thorsten, POV-Team


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From: Allan
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 13 Sep 2006 12:45:01
Message: <web.45083497b2080fe23bfe02f20@news.povray.org>
While POV-Ray 3.6 seems to be causing Rosetta to crash on the Intel Mac,
MegaPOV seems to be working fine and it is running as a native Intel app,
not as an emulated PPC app under Rosetta.  I am rendering the "abyss.pov"
sample right now.

-Allan


"thuthon" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> I installed povray 3.6 onto my macBook pro. Whenever I try to open it, it
> starts opening and goes as far as showing sort of a tool box named
> 'Messages'
> and another named 'Templates'. Then it just vanishes and gives this
> message:- "The application POV-Ray Mac 3.6 quit unexpectedly". I was
> wondering if anyone could help me in this matter.
>
> I have very little experience with povray and I've only worked on it on a
> Linux based machine.
>
> Thanks


Post a reply to this message

From: Allan
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 13 Sep 2006 17:20:00
Message: <web.450874dbb2080fe23bfe02f20@news.povray.org>
Thorsten,

Thanks for the info but I hope you did not misunderstand my note:  I did not
say it was POV-Ray's problem, I simply said it was not an Intel app.  I do
realize that Rosetta is not a very robust environment and it is no wonder
that it fails with POV-Ray.

That said, the very fact that Rosetta is not acceptable is the very reason
why POV-Ray needs to be ported to run as an Intel Mac app.  I think it is
much more likely that POV-Ray can be ported than expecting Apple to fix
Rosetta.  Rosetta, while it does work for most old applications, was never
meant to be a long lived solution for old PPC software.

Like I said in my previous post: if the POV-Ray team would like some help
with porting POV-Ray to the Intel Mac then let me know.  Every app I've
ever written for PPC Macs have ported easily over to Intel.

-Allan


Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> Allan wrote:
> > I just tried POV-Ray 3.6 on an Intel iMac and I get the same crash.  (It
> > works great on the "old" G5.)  A look at the crash log shows that the crash
> > happens in LaunchCFMApp.  It would appear that POV-Ray 3.6 is not yet ready
> > for the Intel Macs?  It should run on the Intels under Rosetta but maybe
> > the old Mac CFM (Code Fragment Manager, kind of like DLL's in Windows)
> > doesn't work under Rosetta?
> >
> No, the problem are the countless bugs in Apple's software emulator. If the
> PowerPC emulator is crashing, that is *Apple's* problem, not POV-Ray's.
> Report problems with crashes to Apple. POV-Ray is a perfectly working and
> cleanly written PowerPC application, and it does run on every real PowerPC
> processor. On the other hand, the emulator Apple supplies is known to have
> problems, and they won't get fixed unless Apple is told they exist.
>
> Report it to Apple, or nothing will change. Unlike with the much better
> planned 68K to PowerPC transition, Apple has neglected to develop a working
> debugger for the PowerPC emulation environment called "Rosetta" and instead
> rushed out unstable systems to end users. Even today there is no reasonable
> way to debug within Rosetta, except using a barely working hack documented
> by Apple to use an unreliable low-level command-line-based debugger with
> plenty of restrictions.
>
> BTW, effectively the poor development environments available, and the rushed
> transition is also the reason why major software vendors (i.e. Adobe) have
> been unable to deliver native software yet. There is just no way to properly
> develop and test on the x86 PCs sold by Apple yet.
>
> As for POV-Ray, do not expect a native version earlier than 2008 or as part
> of POV-Ray 4.0, whichever comes first. In the meantime, you can always
> compile and run the Unix version natively on Mac OS X.
>
>  Thorsten, POV-Team


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From: David Healy
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 25 Sep 2006 14:45:00
Message: <web.451822a6b2080fe2f5575a510@news.povray.org>
Allan,

anything new or further on this?

DHealy
Las Vegas, Nv.

"Allan" <all### [at] WholeCheesecom> wrote:
> Thorsten,
>
> Thanks for the info but I hope you did not misunderstand my note:  I did not
> say it was POV-Ray's problem, I simply said it was not an Intel app.  I do
> realize that Rosetta is not a very robust environment and it is no wonder
> that it fails with POV-Ray.
>
> That said, the very fact that Rosetta is not acceptable is the very reason
> why POV-Ray needs to be ported to run as an Intel Mac app.  I think it is
> much more likely that POV-Ray can be ported than expecting Apple to fix
> Rosetta.  Rosetta, while it does work for most old applications, was never
> meant to be a long lived solution for old PPC software.
>
> Like I said in my previous post: if the POV-Ray team would like some help
> with porting POV-Ray to the Intel Mac then let me know.  Every app I've
> ever written for PPC Macs have ported easily over to Intel.
>
> -Allan
>
>
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> > Allan wrote:
> > > I just tried POV-Ray 3.6 on an Intel iMac and I get the same crash.  (It
> > > works great on the "old" G5.)  A look at the crash log shows that the crash
> > > happens in LaunchCFMApp.  It would appear that POV-Ray 3.6 is not yet ready
> > > for the Intel Macs?  It should run on the Intels under Rosetta but maybe
> > > the old Mac CFM (Code Fragment Manager, kind of like DLL's in Windows)
> > > doesn't work under Rosetta?
> > >
> > No, the problem are the countless bugs in Apple's software emulator. If the
> > PowerPC emulator is crashing, that is *Apple's* problem, not POV-Ray's.
> > Report problems with crashes to Apple. POV-Ray is a perfectly working and
> > cleanly written PowerPC application, and it does run on every real PowerPC
> > processor. On the other hand, the emulator Apple supplies is known to have
> > problems, and they won't get fixed unless Apple is told they exist.
> >
> > Report it to Apple, or nothing will change. Unlike with the much better
> > planned 68K to PowerPC transition, Apple has neglected to develop a working
> > debugger for the PowerPC emulation environment called "Rosetta" and instead
> > rushed out unstable systems to end users. Even today there is no reasonable
> > way to debug within Rosetta, except using a barely working hack documented
> > by Apple to use an unreliable low-level command-line-based debugger with
> > plenty of restrictions.
> >
> > BTW, effectively the poor development environments available, and the rushed
> > transition is also the reason why major software vendors (i.e. Adobe) have
> > been unable to deliver native software yet. There is just no way to properly
> > develop and test on the x86 PCs sold by Apple yet.
> >
> > As for POV-Ray, do not expect a native version earlier than 2008 or as part
> > of POV-Ray 4.0, whichever comes first. In the meantime, you can always
> > compile and run the Unix version natively on Mac OS X.
> >
> >  Thorsten, POV-Team


Post a reply to this message

From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 25 Sep 2006 18:09:29
Message: <45185399@news.povray.org>
Allan wrote:
> Like I said in my previous post: if the POV-Ray team would like some help
> with porting POV-Ray to the Intel Mac then let me know.  Every app I've
> ever written for PPC Macs have ported easily over to Intel.

Porting is not the problem: A quick and dirty port of almost anything is
mostly trivial indeed, assuming it already works with a poor compiler like
gcc and its even worse C and C++ libraries in the first place. However, a
proper port for POV-Ray means adding back what currently makes it fast, like
the just-in-time compiler for functions. Neither is done "easily", and I
have to seriously doubt your experience if you claim about yourself "Every
app I've ever written for PPC Macs have ported easily over to Intel."
because every application I ever had to port anywhere did not work out of
the box for many, many, many different reasons. Of course, you are welcome
to show me wrong, the source code of the Mac version is, as you probably
know, available for download...

	Thorsten


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From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 25 Sep 2006 18:19:36
Message: <451855f8$1@news.povray.org>
David Healy wrote:
> anything new or further on this?

Apple sells some nice and reliable refurbished G5 Macs. If you need a Mac
system for daily work, I strongly recommend you look into getting one. The
x86 PCs sold by Apple, unfortunately, are everything but reliable mostly due
to the rushed and incomplete port of the Mac OS X. Alternatively, x86 PCs
sold by Apple run Windows rather well, and most certainly POV-Ray on Windows
runs fast on them. There even is software that makes on the fly switching
between Windows and Mac OS X really easy.

As previously stated, you should not expect an official version of POV-Ray
for Mac OS X natively running on x86 PCs sold by Apple before 2008. However,
there is of course some slim hope that if you keep bugging Apple, they will
eventually fix their broken emulator such that POV-Ray can run on all x86
PCs sold by Apple. Bugging the POV-Team will not help, as Apple software and
hardware problems are beyond our control.

	Thorsten, POV-Team


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From: Allan
Subject: Re: Povray crashes
Date: 21 Oct 2006 14:50:00
Message: <web.453a6af7b2080fe2387a47510@news.povray.org>
Good grief!  With an attitude like this it is no wonder that POV-ray for the
Mac is all but doomed for extinction.  Where you get such authority to
dismiss OS X like this is beyond my comprehension.  I have never heard
anyone in my years of experience ever say the gcc compiler was "poor".  As
to the "rushed and incomplete port" of OS X to the intel architecture:
where have you been hiding the last few years?  OS X has been running on
intel processors since version 10.0.  It was not rushed, on the contrary,
Apple took their time to release the intel version for obvious marketing
reasons.

As for the "broken emulator", Apple clearly states that well written and
well behaved applications will run with no problem under Rosetta.  I have
the latest version of Photoshop v9.0.2 running on my MacPro: it is not yet
a native intel app and it runs under Rosetta with no problems whatsoever.
I also have Silo v1.42 running with no problems.  These are hardly trivial
applications.  What kind of platform dependent tricks do you employ in
POV-ray that a) makes it difficult to port, and b) breaks Rosetta?

Fortunately, MegaPOV is running great on the MacPro.  It is a native intel
app and has a number of very nice features that are not available in
POV-ray.  My advice to all the intel Mac users here: get MegaPOV and be
happy.





>Porting is not the problem: A quick and dirty port of almost
>anything is mostly trivial indeed, assuming it already works
>with a poor compiler like gcc and its even worse C and C++
>libraries in the first place.

>I have to seriously doubt your experience if you claim about
>yourself "Every app I've ever written for PPC Macs have ported
>easily over to Intel."


>reliable mostly due to the rushed and incomplete port of the
>Mac OS X.

>As previously stated, you should not expect an official version
>of POV-Ray for Mac OS X natively running on x86 PCs sold by
>Apple before 2008. However, there is of course some slim hope
>that if you keep bugging Apple, they will eventually fix their


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