"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> schreef in bericht 
news:46bf60d1$1@news.povray.org...
[...]
> The obvious advantage of mesh it is that the polys match the contour of 
> the surface so that a vertical line of polys could be used to shape a 
> flute which would diminish in size appropriately. So now I an curious as 
> to why you used the boolean approach.
>
I woke up this night with the sudden thought that I only used the boolean 
approach with the Moray proxy. I remember now (It has been about 4 years ago 
and I should have taken notes) that I modelled the flutes by moving the 
appropriate faces inwards from the surface of the mesh shaft and 
handcrafting the top and bottom. As you say, there are serious problems with 
the boolean approach where the size of the flutes is concerned.
I think now that an easier workflow would be to slice a pie section from a 
featureless shaft, exactly covering one flute width and twice the half rib 
widths; to craft the flute and finally to apply a rotational sweep to 
restore the complete shaft.

>
>>
>> If you want to follow the classical rules, number and form of the flutes 
>> are fixed, but that is another discussion entirely.
>
> I would be intereseted if you have any references.  Right now I am using 
> 18 flutes, so a 20 degree rotation.
24 seems to have been the general use in antiquity, at least in the 
classical period. However, older columns could have up to 48 flutes. Ribs 
were sharp during the Doric Order period, but flat (with deeper flutes) 
later.
>
>
>>
>> Once you have the shaft modelled to your satisfaction, you can model 
>> separately the different elements that form the base of the column, and 
>> the top. The top part is particularly challenging because of the 
>> distinctive capitals. I have not attempted the Corynthian order!! The 
>> Ionian order is already difficult enough. I used a background image as a 
>> proxy for modelling that particular spiral shape.
>
> Yeah, I'll give that a wait.  Actually for my purposes I can diverge from 
> the strictly classical and indulge myself with my own caprices as well as 
> any 19th century neoclassical architect
Great! :-)
That makes it a bit easier. My (calculated) handicap was that I wanted to 
reconstruct the real thing. I had to make concessions of course.

>
>>
>> I won't speak now about corner columns!!! They have their own challenges 
>> in the way to model the capitals.
>
> Hasn't come since it is a circular collonade but will remember that when 
> tempted to do the other.
No problem then indeed.

>>
>> The result is shown in this low resolution image when I finished building 
>> the complete temple.
>
> Very nice.  I am also impresses with the texture in 'Eavesdropping', 
> which, if you are using mesh, must be a perturbed normal?
Yes, that is right.

Thomas

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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> schreef in bericht 
news:46bf60d1$1@news.povray.org...
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
>>
>> I followed the Greek guideline that says that a column, to be appealing 
>> to the eye, should not be a simple cone shape but bulge a tiny bit out at 
>> the middle. I acchieved this by using a vertically very elongated sphere, 
>> cut at the middle (i.e. the base of the column) and at the place where 
>> the top should be. You have to experiment with the vertical elongation 
>> until you have both bottom and top diameters correctly. An easy way to do 
>> this is to first make a proxy model in Moray to get the measurements 
>> needed.
>
> Yes, my approach too.  I saw somewhere on the web that Roman columns have 
> more of a middle bulge but Greek have a curved taper but the base is the 
> thickest.  No idea if they knew what they were talking about.
> http://www.uen.org/Centennial/08BuildingsA.html
Yes, the entasis (I forgot the name). I followed the Greek method. 
Interestingly, I have a paper describing the 'blueprints' used by the Greek 
in constructing the Apollo temple at Didyma in Turkey. They scratched the 
plans on the walls or the floor under construction and took their 
measurements from there. After completion, walls and floors were polished 
and the scratchings removed. Thanks to the fact that the Apollo temple was 
never finished, the blueprints survived.
In the same temple can be seen that they first built the columns and only 
afterwards carved the flutes. The following French site gives some fair 
examples of the ruins.
http://jfbradu.free.fr/GRECEANTIQUE/turquie/didymes/didymes-bas.htm

Thomas

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Jim Charter wrote:

> ... you used boolean subtraction of torii?  Again I have been
> trying exactly the same approach but with POV CSG.  The problem
> I had was getting the circumference of the torus to decrease at
> an rate appropriate to the diminishing circumference of the tapering
> shaft.

How about sphere_sweeps for column and flutes? Evaluating the spline
functions would give any circumference you need.

 -Shay

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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46af290816060248c4e49fa40@news.povray.org...
>
> This is coming along nicely. Will we see a glimpse of Cathy skipping along
> the quay?
>

Well Stephen, look at this little vignette, taken from the lower right-hand 
corner of the image. I have added Cathy (and her little brother), and it 
seems that the observer/beholder has been exposed  :-)
This is a small test render using radiosity to see how that is going to 
affect the scene.

Not so visible here, but I have used Soft Decoration Groups (Poser Cloth 
Room) for the yellow braids on Cathy's dress. Up close, these show as the 
three dimensional decorations they are in reality.

Thomas

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Attachments:
Download 'Oreille Indiscrete.png' (40 KB)

Preview of image 'Oreille Indiscrete.png'

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht
> news:web.46af290816060248c4e49fa40@news.povray.org...
> >
> > This is coming along nicely. Will we see a glimpse of Cathy skipping along
> > the quay?
> >
>
> Well Stephen, look at this little vignette, taken from the lower right-hand
> corner of the image. I have added Cathy (and her little brother), and it
> seems that the observer/beholder has been exposed  :-)
> This is a small test render using radiosity to see how that is going to
> affect the scene.
>
> Not so visible here, but I have used Soft Decoration Groups (Poser Cloth
> Room) for the yellow braids on Cathy's dress. Up close, these show as the
> three dimensional decorations they are in reality.
>
> Thomas

Oh! That is intriguing. A bit small and out of context not to mention it is

something wrong with their eyes? When I adjusted the size and contrast to


getting a white eye look.

Stephen

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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46c2d09716060248c4e49fa40@news.povray.org...
>
> Oh! That is intriguing. A bit small and out of context not to mention it 
> is
> a bit dark for my monitor. But I've mentioned that before :-) Is there
> something wrong with their eyes? When I adjusted the size and contrast to
> see it better the eyes look strange. I've noticed in a couple of my models
> that I had to tweak the "Eyeball" material's transparency because I was
> getting a white eye look.
>

It is the same scale as the main image and is not intended to intrude too 
much on the main story. It is a kind of sideline. And remember, we are in 
the shadow here, the only light coming from the sunlight reflection on the 
wall to the right, and diffused light coming from the left.

The eyeballs have been corrected with M_Glass3 (which FlyerX advised me to 
use). I suppose that what you see is the reflection of the sunlight that is 
reflected from the wall. However, the anti aliasing (0.3) is too coarse for 
this image and should be finer. In the final render this will be brought 
down to 0.1. Otherwise, I 'know' that the eyes are rendered correctly. Both 
of them looking upwards increases in fact the amount of white visible too.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> schreef in bericht 
news:46c2e218@news.povray.org...
>
>
> The eyeballs have been corrected with M_Glass3 (which FlyerX advised me to 
> use). I suppose that what you see is the reflection of the sunlight that 
> is reflected from the wall. However, the anti aliasing (0.3) is too coarse 
> for this image and should be finer. In the final render this will be 
> brought down to 0.1. Otherwise, I 'know' that the eyes are rendered 
> correctly. Both of them looking upwards increases in fact the amount of 
> white visible too.
>

I can confirm this now: I rendered only the eyes with aa=0.01 and they 
appear correctly, without white glare.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> schreef in bericht
> news:46c2e218@news.povray.org...
> >
> >
> > The eyeballs have been corrected with M_Glass3 (which FlyerX advised me to
> > use). I suppose that what you see is the reflection of the sunlight that
> > is reflected from the wall. However, the anti aliasing (0.3) is too coarse
> > for this image and should be finer. In the final render this will be
> > brought down to 0.1. Otherwise, I 'know' that the eyes are rendered
> > correctly. Both of them looking upwards increases in fact the amount of
> > white visible too.
> >
>
> I can confirm this now: I rendered only the eyes with aa=0.01 and they
> appear correctly, without white glare.
>
> Thomas

I like the idea of having a little in joke that is unobtrusive. The problem
here is, any image will be looked at critically with respect to the poster,
yours, amongst others more than most. (Your own fault for being so good :-)

PoseRay transparency.



I'm looking forward to the next version.

Stephen

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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46c30e8216060248c4e49fa40@news.povray.org...
>
> I like the idea of having a little in joke that is unobtrusive. The 
> problem
> here is, any image will be looked at critically with respect to the 
> poster,
> yours, amongst others more than most. (Your own fault for being so good 
> :-)

Hm hm hm... I shall refrain from posting from now on..... :-)
Well, there is nothing wrong with a good bunch of criticism. Over the years 
that has helped me a lot, sometimes by just discarding it as nonsense   :-) 
In the end, one has to make one's own choices.
The idea of a little joke embedded in the image is always at the back of my 
mind. Sometimes it is functional, sometimes not. In this case, I believe it 
can add an interesting item: the observer is confronted to different story 
lines, one as a neutral observer, one as a participant into the main drama 
plot, one as an actor in the juvenile side story. Others may come to mind I 
am sure. That is left to the observer.

> It's interesting that FlyerX suggested M_Glass3 I've just been maxing the
> PoseRay transparency.
To a question I asked him about the transparency issue with the eyes (Apollo 
Maximus), FlyerX answered as follows
<quote>
In my opinion the iris for this model should not have any highlight. All the 
surface gloss should come from the cornea and EyeWhite materials. If the 
cornea is set to material{M_Glass3} and the iris set to black highlight you 
should get a better result. See attached image. You can go into the POV-Ray 
material tab and add the Glass3 material to the cornea. PoseRay will send 
that material to POV-Ray at render time. For Victoria 2 models I also use 
M_Glass3 as the eyeball material that covers the eye and gives much better 
results that any Poser related material.
<unquote>

> Anti aliasing is something I've been experimenting with recently, trying 
> to
> get the fastest acceptable value for an animation. I'm having fun.
I suppose that for an animation you can get away with a coarser anti 
aliasing?

>
> I'm looking forward to the next version.
Wait and see :-) May take some time now because I am going to render with 
radiosity...

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> schreef in bericht
> news:web.46c30e8216060248c4e49fa40@news.povray.org...
> >
> > I like the idea of having a little in joke that is unobtrusive. The
> > problem
> > here is, any image will be looked at critically with respect to the
> > poster,
> > yours, amongst others more than most. (Your own fault for being so good
> > :-)
>
> Hm hm hm... I shall refrain from posting from now on..... :-)
> Well, there is nothing wrong with a good bunch of criticism. Over the years
> that has helped me a lot, sometimes by just discarding it as nonsense   :-)
> In the end, one has to make one's own choices.


confirm what a bunch of nitpicker we are :-)

> The idea of a little joke embedded in the image is always at the back of my
> mind. Sometimes it is functional, sometimes not. In this case, I believe it
> can add an interesting item: the observer is confronted to different story
> lines, one as a neutral observer, one as a participant into the main drama
> plot, one as an actor in the juvenile side story. Others may come to mind I
> am sure. That is left to the observer.


said earlier about the way scenes are built. IIRC she preferred to build
scenes from the top down while I prefer to build them from the bottom up. I
find that my final image can vary considerably from my original concept as
each new object/character influences the way the scene develops. Sometimes

another direction. Keep up including you family as a motif.


> > It's interesting that FlyerX suggested M_Glass3 I've just been maxing the
> > PoseRay transparency.
> To a question I asked him about the transparency issue with the eyes (Apollo
> Maximus), FlyerX answered as follows
[snip]


Kung Fu master. So I just eliminated the problem.

> > Anti aliasing is something I've been experimenting with recently, trying
> > to
> > get the fastest acceptable value for an animation. I'm having fun.
> I suppose that for an animation you can get away with a coarser anti
> aliasing?

I certainly hope so but as there is a lot of static components and I made
the mistake of using a CSG to make fluting on a couple of columns that give


> >
> > I'm looking forward to the next version.
> Wait and see :-) May take some time now because I am going to render with
> radiosity...
>

Have a book to hand.
BTW I've kept a couple of Ken Macleod paperbacks if you want them. Now I'm
here the postage would not signify

Stephen

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