Tom Stone wrote:

> According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
> and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
> expressed similar sentiments.
> 
> This is confusing.

I am sorry you feel this way. I thought I was being more than patient with
you trying to get you to understand the reality of the situation. I guess
I have failed and I don't know what else to offer you.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group

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Warp wrote:

>   - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
> triangle mesh in POV-Ray format.

Ah, good news again. Where can I find it?

Look Warp, I'm very grateful that you have the patience to answer me. Do not doubt
that.
However, it seems like we are constantly talking past each other. That we are
misunderstanding each other on a fundamental level. On a cognitive level, I do
understand that you're trying to help, but I still just get more frustrated and
feel more stupid.
Agreed, that's my problem, not yours.. but yet...

I suspect that we have different definitions on the word "use".
From a programmer's point of view, I guess that everything you say is correct.
Your SDL Raytracer is an excellent proof that we can "use" Mesh2. We could also,
if we all were programmers, write our own Pov-patches to use whatever fileformat
we desire. So, while a programmer can make amazing things with this format, I
still guess that the main reason for it's inclusion in the official release is to
provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes. Now, I'm
perhaps claiming a too high ranking, but I consider myself to be an average user.

I'm not a programmer, so my definition of the word "use" is different. I "use"
POV-Ray to get a mental image to appear on the computer screen. If I want to make
an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
UV-mapped mesh model of the man. The documentation seems to imply that I can do
that.

But can I really, as a non-programmer, "use" an UV-mapped mesh model without
buying a PC?

If the POV team has gone through all the trouble of including the Mesh2 format in
the official release, then wouldn't they get happy if as many as possible actually
can use it (including non-programmers)? If no Mac users are able to use this
feature, just because there isn't any converters, then wouldn't it increase the
chances that a developer will make one if it is obvious that a need exists?
What do the POV team gain from pretending that there isn't a need for a Mesh2
converter on the Mac platform?

Since the Faq-part of the documentation already gives links to several third-party
utilities that are platform specific (for both Mac and PC), then why not take it a
tiny step further? Like adding a small list after the FAQ with "Ideas for third
party developers". I'm sure that both Mac and PC developers would find such a list
useful.
Like, a density file is a powerful feature in POV, but I haven't seen many use it.
A df3 editor might change that, so why not say that out front?

Oh well. I've been using POV-Ray since 1996, and I love it dearly. Had I felt
nothing for the program, I wouldn't been causing trouble here and now.

Smellenbergh offered to make a Mac Mesh2 converter.
But it seems like Joe Strout have a head start.
However, it would be nice to have a Mac version of your Mesh compressor.
Perhaps you and the Smellenberghs can discuss a Mac port of it?

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Ken wrote:

>  I guess
> I have failed and I don't know what else to offer you.

Thanks Ken. This last message offered more than what you might believe.

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Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote:

> > If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> > hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> > code, we might have a look at it.
> 
> Thomas Baier has the source code for 3dto3d available for download.
> http://www.stmuc.com/thbaier/download.html
> but I don't understand exactly if it's free.
Its not free at all.
> FlyerFX has a free specific obj (Poser) to Povray utility.
> http://people.tamu.edu/~sfg2113/poserayhelp.htm
> No source given but if someone ask him kindly...
I just contacted the author. Now just waiting for a reply.

Thanks for the hints,

Yvo


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

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Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:

> Since Joe seems to have started the work on a converter, it might not be
> necessary for you to do all this work also.
> However, I guess that Joe could have use for your expert knowledge. Is it okey
> if I send your email address to him?
You can always do so but I don't think we can be of much help, we know
very little about 3D file formats. 

Yvo


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

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Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
:>   - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
:> triangle mesh in POV-Ray format.

: Ah, good news again. Where can I find it?

  "It"? There are many. For many purposes. Some convert meshes from other
formats, others create meshes algorithmically (eg plants and trees from
lparser algorithms) and so on. It depends on what you want to do.

: So, while a programmer can make amazing things with this format, I
: still guess that the main reason for it's inclusion in the official release is to
: provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes.

  What else would it be? Meshes are extremely efficient primitives. POV-Ray
can render a mesh with hundreds of millions of triangles in question of
minutes. It's an extremely useful primitive because of its efficiency and
because it's the most common primitive used in modellers.

: If I want to make
: an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
: UV-mapped mesh model of the man. The documentation seems to imply that I can do
: that.

  Of course you can do that, but you need some way of converting that model
to a format which POV-Ray can read.

: What do the POV team gain from pretending that there isn't a need for a Mesh2
: converter on the Mac platform?

  Who said there's no need for a converter? I still don't understand this idea
of yours.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

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Warp wrote:

> It depends on what you want to do.

I want to have people in my scenes with somewhat realistic hands. Look at Gilles
Tran's site for examples.

> it's inclusion in the official release is to
> : provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes.
>
>   What else would it be?

Exactly. Using, as you suggested, your SDL Raytracer doesn't strike me as a practical
way for me, an agerage user, to use it. Nor do I believe, as you also said, that if I,
a single user, run the SDL Raytracer will suddenly cause Mesh2 to become a standard
format on the Mac platform.

>
> : If I want to make
> : an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
> : UV-mapped mesh model of the man.
>
>   Of course you can do that, but you need some way of converting that model
> to a format which POV-Ray can read.

-"I don't have a parachute like you, so I can't jump out of this plane"
-"Of course you can jump like me, as long as you have a parachute."
-"Oh, then we can both jump then?"
-"Yes, of course!"

>
>   Who said there's no need for a converter? I still don't understand this idea
> of yours.

Cut and paste from an earlier posting of yours:
"Anymore? There has never been any need."

Is it really impossible to add a line in the docs (for example in 9.2.3), saying
something like:

"At the date of this release, there are no known POV converters on the Mac platform"
That's all I'm asking for.

Or, are there any Mac beta testers here that have been able to create and test an UV
mapped Mesh2 object that have been more complicated than a cube?

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Stone" <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote in message
news:3B9E0900.76AC3576@telia.com...
>
> Or, are there any Mac beta testers here that have been able to create and test
an UV
> mapped Mesh2 object that have been more complicated than a cube?

Well, there are probably some Mac beta testers who have access to a windows
machine, who can therefore copy the required converted text files across... I
have to admit that it's very hard to work out whether or not you have understood
the issue.

Post a reply to this message

Tom Melly wrote:

> I
> have to admit that it's very hard to work out whether or not you have understood
> the issue.

The only issue is the documentation.

If you read the section:
=====================
6.5.2.4 Mesh2
The new mesh syntax is designed for use in conversion from other file formats.
=====================

That information makes you look up:

=====================
9.2.3 How can I convert my scenes from format X to POV-Ray format?
You can try WCTV2Pov and Crossroads3D by Keith Rule and 3DWin by Thomas Baier.
=====================

Well, if "you" in that passage refers to me, that the information in 9.2.3 is
incorrect. I can't try any of them.
That is, this part of the docs seems to imply that all users are PC users, as "you"
is directed towards every person that reads it. The advice given is platform
specific, and that goes against the main philosophy elsewhere in the docs.

I want this part to acknowledge that not only PC users are using POV-Ray. If I read
"you" in the docs, then I want to feel that the text really are talking to me. That
is not the case right now.

That's why I initiated this discussion.

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Tom Stone wrote:
> 
> Tom Melly wrote:
> 
> > I
> > have to admit that it's very hard to work out whether or not you have understood
> > the issue.
> 
> The only issue is the documentation.
> 
> If you read the section:
> =====================
> 6.5.2.4 Mesh2
> The new mesh syntax is designed for use in conversion from other file formats.
> =====================
> 
> That information makes you look up:
> 
> =====================
> 9.2.3 How can I convert my scenes from format X to POV-Ray format?
> You can try WCTV2Pov and Crossroads3D by Keith Rule and 3DWin by Thomas Baier.
> =====================

Yes, I wrote that like three years ago even before the Mesh2 syntax was
conceived. Yes, there are currently no conversion utilities available on
the Mac platform that can support the Mesh2 syntax. What would you like
me to say ? I cannot give advice to Mac users in the FAQ until someone
in the POV-Ray community gets off their tailends and writes the software.
The POV-Team has no responsibility to write the conversion utility because
that is up to the community of Mac programmers to do themselves. If the Mac
platform is too restrictive for your tastes then maybe you should by a PC!

We have wasted way too much message space on this thread and this is the
last I am going to say on the subject.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Asssistance Group

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