"Tom Galvin" <tom### [at] imporg> wrote in message
news:Xns9484AA88EFB6Btomatimporg@203.29.75.35...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
> news:40200575$1@news.povray.org:
>
> >
> > No, no, no, read it -- words have meanings -- I say SGI isn't
> > clamoring, I'm not saying other people aren't. However, because there
> > is so much on-the-line for Microsoft, I think DirectX will surpass
> > OpenGL.
>
> You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think we will see, DirectX
> for Linux or Mac anytime soon.  IMHO, the industry is shifting back to
> multiple platforms and open standards.  MS is a bit late for the party.  A
> few more quarters like the last few should bring them around.

Thorsten -- take notes and laminate them. This is how you reply to an
opinion thread.

I respect your opinion, Tom, and I hope you are right. I'd rather see OpenGL
be the dominant force out there, even if it is made by SGI. After all, I
don't really like either of the companies, but if I have to choose one over
the other, it would be SGI.

/Even if I do think .NET is a wonderful thing and am using DirectX now not
for reasons that I am some Microsoft zealot, but because I want to use the
full power of my video card./

Civil discourse. I love it. Thank you Tom, you made my night and brought
hope back to me. You too, Warp, btw, because you were always civil as well,
albeit as arrogant as I was :-) But when you make the stuff you have, you
have a right to be arrogant (moreso when I talk to you because, even though
we might have some differences, I still consider you a personal hero for
your targa averager and obvious and well backed-up understanding of C).

In fact, Thorsten has a right to be arrogant too, being on the official
POV-Ray team. Arrogance begets arrogance and it can be fun. I'm not sure
what role Thorsten played on the team, but I'm going to bet on him not being
the guy who bought the donuts and poured the coffee. I don't think that guy
gets listed on the messages screen (unless he bought really, really nice
donuts).

I think this thread is actually over now.

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
news:40203941$1@news.povray.org: 


> 
> Thorsten -- take notes and laminate them. This is how you reply to an
> opinion thread.
> 


Don't put me on a pedastal.  I have been known to wake up on the wrong side 
of the bed and make posts before getting coffee ;)


-- 
Tom
_________________________________
The Internet Movie Project
http://www.imp.org/

Post a reply to this message

In article <40203941$1@news.povray.org> , "Dan P" 
<dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

> Appreciating them. This
> is a tough concept for you, I can tell, since everything I say you get
> defensive over.

It still did not occur to you that I just don't care discussing your
so-called "facts" with you, do you?  And I am not the one having to prove
anything either; neither that your so-called "facts" are none nor that I
know more than you do about the topics of discussion.  POV-Ray in itself is
sufficient for showing that I have substantial knowledge.  Yet, what do you
have to show?  Just because someone does not want to argue with someone else
does not imply he/she cannot "debunk" that argument.  For my part, if I
would try to do that for every incorrect claim posted such that the person
making that claim would understand it, I would be written 50 pages a week.
So, there is a point where you either accept my word or don't.  After all, I
have demonstrated understanding of 3D graphics and cross-platform
development.

Of course, others with more time may want to help you learn, but this is
povray.advanced-users, so I don't think teaching that kind of stuff belongs
here.

> In fact, Thorsten has a right to be arrogant too, being on the official
> POV-Ray team. Arrogance begets arrogance and it can be fun. I'm not sure
> what role Thorsten played on the team, but I'm going to bet on him not being
> the guy who bought the donuts and poured the coffee. I don't think that guy
> gets listed on the messages screen (unless he bought really, really nice
> donuts).

You obviously know nothing about me.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> babbles in message
news:402054b1@news.povray.org...
> In article <40203941$1@news.povray.org> , "Dan P"
> <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

> It still did not occur to you that I just don't care discussing your
> so-called "facts" with you, do you?  And I am not the one having to prove
> anything either; neither that your so-called "facts" are none nor that I
> know more than you do about the topics of discussion.  POV-Ray in itself
is
> sufficient for showing that I have substantial knowledge.  Yet, what do
you
> have to show?  Just because someone does not want to argue with someone
else
> does not imply he/she cannot "debunk" that argument.  For my part, if I
> would try to do that for every incorrect claim posted such that the person
> making that claim would understand it, I would be written 50 pages a week.
> So, there is a point where you either accept my word or don't.  After all,
I
> have demonstrated understanding of 3D graphics and cross-platform
> development.

So...why...do...you...keep...talking!!!?

> Of course, others with more time may want to help you learn, but this is
> povray.advanced-users, so I don't think teaching that kind of stuff
belongs
> here.
>
> > In fact, Thorsten has a right to be arrogant too, being on the official
> > POV-Ray team. Arrogance begets arrogance and it can be fun. I'm not sure
> > what role Thorsten played on the team, but I'm going to bet on him not
being
> > the guy who bought the donuts and poured the coffee. I don't think that
guy
> > gets listed on the messages screen (unless he bought really, really nice
> > donuts).
>
> You obviously know nothing about me.

Well, I don't know if you like jelly or sprinkles, or if you serve it decaf
or espresso, but I do know you work on the Macintosh version of POV-Ray and
you spend inordinate amounts of time bitching about how you don't have
enough time and don't want to support people because they're so beneath you.
Please, Thorsten, don't kill POV-Ray with your attitude, okay? Lots of
people contributed to POV-Ray, not just you, and they're not being jerks
about it. It only leads me to believe that you need people to consider your
role more important than it is.

But I guess everybody needs donuts.

Thorsten, if you need attention, why don't you buy a dog? This is a
community, not a personal "Thorsten is Better than You(TM)" campaign. I'm
personally getting tired of this thread. If you want to keep going back and
forth, great, whatever; it's entertainment. But really, this ego-sponging of
yours is getting tiring and if you would stop all the lip and get crackin',
maybe we'll get to be reminded how great you are when 4.0 comes out. Hey,
then you won't be on the short-list!!!

PS: Is this some kind of hazing you do or someting to people? You really
remind me of a roomate I had. He was 450 pounds, unemployed, didn't shower,
literally ate his own nose mucus, and was an ass to everybody, yet all
fragile when anybody said anything back. Now, I'm not saying your 450
pounds, unemployed, don't shower, eat your nose candy, but given what an ass
you are to everybody, and how fragile your ego appears to be, I'm forming a
not too flattering picture in my mind. But, you can't win em all over, eh?

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:401d7ed5$1@news.povray.org...
> I've decided to ultimately answer this thread by writing the software.
> This is my last reply on this opinion thread.

You guys have convinced me to create a level of abstraction in my code so
that it is not too tightly bound to DirectX. After I create it in Direct3D
(and learn it as a result), I will move on to extending it to OpenGL (and
learn that as well too). No, I don't know these interfaces very well, but
I'll learn from this experience. Even if I don't wind up putting OpenGL in
myself, it gives someone else an easier time doing so when I release the
source.

Now, I suppose I could say that I'll do this only if reality doesn't get in
the way, namely finishing my Masters and getting my Doctorate (in Comp
Sci/Scientific, TF, if you must know, not that it matters), but I don't like
to make excuses like that. Instead, after (if) I get a working framework up,
we can get involved in a community of interest, even if my first experiences
with this community have been less than stellar and might turn off other
people to the whole thing. I suspect most of you are reasonable, intelligent
people who are willing to build up the field, regardless of the larger
voices that seem to shout over the crowd. The overwhelming proof supports
this perception.

I have loved and used POV-Ray (even the Mac version, TF!) for more than a
decade and am looking forward to contributing to it somehow if I have the
moxy. POV-Ray rules.

Post a reply to this message

"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:402054b1@news.povray.org...
> In article <40203941$1@news.povray.org> , "Dan P"
> <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> You obviously know nothing about me.

I looked you up and, wow, I didn't realize how fresh out of school you were.
You graduated with a BS in 2001? I'm really sorry, man, I didn't mean to get
old-school on you. I just assumed you had more experience based on your
attitude. When I said I've been working with POV-ray (and other 3D
applications) for almost a decade, I wasn't commenting on your experience or
anything. I really /was/ expecting a big long resume of amazing projects,
not a vague link to the Mac POV-ray site. You should take comfort in the
fact that you actually convinced me you must be all-that!!! Hey, maybe you
still are.

I know how Illinois can make some people jaded, being born in Wisconsin. We
think it's all that flat land. But, you're all our |F|riendly |I|llinois
|B|uddie|s|. It looks like you went to a good school, though. Things'll work
out. Hang in there, buddy. You'll make a big splash and laugh at all this in
five or so years.

Post a reply to this message

Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> I looked you up and, wow, I didn't realize how fresh out of school you were.
> You graduated with a BS in 2001?

  I got my MSc degree in computing science last summmer. Are you going
to tell me I'm "fresh out of school" as well?

  I don't understand how the date of your university graduation has to
do anything with your experience in 3D programming. It tells nothing
about how many years of experience you have (or even your age). Someone
can perfectly have 20 years of experience in programming and then
get a university degree. I don't see anything strange in that.

  Your personal attacks are not wise. Do you think you are going to gain
respect with that?

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Don't take this too personal, but if your programming experience is
at the level shown at the beginning of this thread, don't put your own
expectations too high.
  Making a graphical modeller is *DIFFICULT*, much much more difficult
than a command-line image averaging program.
  It's of course a good personal project, but don't expect it to be
a good piece of software for wider audience. (Not even if you made
it closed-source; you would probably not believe how difficult
maintaining and upgrading a program of that magnitude can be, and
you'll have to do that a lot if you expect it to become a popular
program.)
  Experience in developing and maintaining bigger programs is quite
crucial in this kind of projects. This needs years of studying and
programming experience.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

On 3 Feb 2004 16:47:04 -0500, Tom Galvin <tom### [at] imporg> wrote:
> You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think we will see, DirectX 
> for Linux or Mac anytime soon.  IMHO, the industry is shifting back to 
> multiple platforms and open standards.  MS is a bit late for the party.  A 
> few more quarters like the last few should bring them around.

http://www.khronos.org/opengles/spec.html

ABX

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:13:24 -0800, Darren <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Actually, I'm curious about this. If the API changes 90% with each 
> version, how is it that a game that runs with DirectX7 installed 
> continues to run when upgrading to DirectX8 and DirectX9?

I do not know how DirectX is builded but it's easy to make it with shared
libraries on Windowses (DLLs). Every next version can install own DLLs as well
as DLLs of previous versions. Again, I do not know if this is the case of
DirectX.

ABX

Post a reply to this message

In article <40207f73$1@news.povray.org> , Darren <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:

>> Remember that there is more than gaming.  And DirectX, from a programmer's
>> perspective is an impossible API.  It just changes 90% with each version.
>
> Actually, I'm curious about this. If the API changes 90% with each
> version, how is it that a game that runs with DirectX7 installed
> continues to run when upgrading to DirectX8 and DirectX9?

The API itself is versioned.  Using special dynamic linking rules (which is
what COM provides - a kind of semi-dynamic binding), backward compatibility
is mostly kept.  Yet, there are several pitfalls when mixing API versions in
the same application, specially when dealing with data structures that
changed.  For the most part this does indeed allow old applications to run
on newer versions of the API transparently.  Of course, there is a catch:
Certain features in older APIs eventually end up being deprecated because
their design does not fit well with modern hardware at API allows you to
interface to.  Shaders are a good example.

A good example of this backward compatibility thing is actually that of
Direct3D drivers.  Vendors put a lot of work in optimising for the new
versions of the API, yet at the same time neglect optimising older API
versions' features.  And eventually, while probably still around, those old
versions get less stable when running on new hardware.

With games of course this does not matter much.  You keep them around for
two or three years at most.  And you are unlikely to care in five years.
However, in big corporate setups with hundreds or thousands or workstations,
upgrading, even "just" software does take place less frequently.  So for
compatibility reasons you need to be using older versions of tools.  And
they better still run well on new hardware!

Back to the case of 3D rendering APIs, OpenGL is the closest to a common
standard.  It definitely isn't the ultimate, final and perfect standard, but
it does provide basic long-term stability of its API.  And it provides in
parts a much higher level of abstraction than Direct3D does.  In particular,
there are also high-quality OpenGL software renderers available (if you have
the money).

On the other hand, all major vendors of CAD applications have been in the
market for much longer than the lifetime of OpenGL or Direct3D.  So they got
their own abstraction layer on top of OpenGL.  And they could easily switch
to Direct3D if they wanted to.  Yet, Direct3D does not offer them much, if
anything for their application domain.  Programmable shaders are hardly a
use in a CAD application displaying a complex wireframe model.  There you
care more about about line antialiasing (which early Direct3D
implementations did not provide at all) than fancy texturing options.  And
if you want a high quality display, these applications use a software
rendering or export to 3D rendering applications anyway.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:4020bbb2@news.povray.org...
> Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> > I looked you up and, wow, I didn't realize how fresh out of school you
were.
> > You graduated with a BS in 2001?
>
>   I got my MSc degree in computing science last summmer. Are you going
> to tell me I'm "fresh out of school" as well?

Now we're getting somewhere. You're telling me I should make assumptions
about your competence based on your experience. Well, I agree! Thank you for
arguing my point. Perhaps you'll remember that before passing judgment on my
competence without knowing anything about /me/ as well.

>   I don't understand how the date of your university graduation has to
> do anything with your experience in 3D programming. It tells nothing
> about how many years of experience you have (or even your age). Someone
> can perfectly have 20 years of experience in programming and then
> get a university degree. I don't see anything strange in that.

Nope. Neither did I. TF is 25, however, so if he has 20 years of programming
experience, that's one impressive kid. But, Mozart...

>   Your personal attacks are not wise. Do you think you are going to gain
> respect with that?

Who said I was interested in respect? Only a fool taps a dry well. Don't
internalize my intentions; I don't want what you want, nor would I care if I
had it. My intentions are to be part of a community of interest and help
others get better if I can. I walk into a room, try and help by
demonstrating a concept with C code, and get ripped apart (not your
critique, Warp, that was very helpful and added to the conversation) for
doing so, gaining all sorts of personal attacks. And now you think I'm naive
enough to expect /respect/?

It really shocks me how "logical" people are so driven by emotion. Shocks
and entertains.

Post a reply to this message

"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:4020e245@news.povray.org...
> In article <40207f73$1@news.povray.org> , Darren <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>

Thank you for the well thought out and constructive post, TF.

Post a reply to this message

Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> Perhaps you'll remember that before passing judgment on my
> competence without knowing anything about /me/ as well.

  Well, I have seen some of your code and I have seen some of your opinions.
I have based my opinion on your competence in programming solely on those
things, not on how old you are or what is your academic degree.

  Forming an opinion on someone's programming experience based on when
he graduated is certainly something fool to do. Basing it on what he
*does* and *says* is a lot less prejudiced.

  I find it quite sad that you despise someone's programming experience
based solely on when he graduated.

> Who said I was interested in respect?

  Then what are you doing here?
  If you want people to talk to you and answer your questions and cooperate
with you, you should earn their respect. This is done largely by respecting
them yourself. If you don't respect people and don't care about them
respecting you and don't mind offending people at will, you are little
more than another troll.

> It really shocks me how "logical" people are so driven by emotion. Shocks
> and entertains.

  If you start insulting people you are going to make them angry. There's
nothing odd about that.

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:4020bd10@news.povray.org...
>   Don't take this too personal, but if your programming experience is
> at the level shown at the beginning of this thread, don't put your own
> expectations too high.
>
>   Making a graphical modeller is *DIFFICULT*, much much more difficult
> than a command-line image averaging program.

You think?

>   It's of course a good personal project, but don't expect it to be
> a good piece of software for wider audience. (Not even if you made
> it closed-source; you would probably not believe how difficult
> maintaining and upgrading a program of that magnitude can be, and
> you'll have to do that a lot if you expect it to become a popular
> program.)
>
>   Experience in developing and maintaining bigger programs is quite
> crucial in this kind of projects. This needs years of studying and
> programming experience.

Thank you for the encouragement. I believe my 15 years of studying and
programming experience will come in quite handy. But, that isn't something
to argue, that's something to demonstrate with the program itself, which
isn't a quick one-off program like the averager I posted.

Warp, I didn't argue with you about your coding styles because I didn't want
to get into a fight over something that is largely a matter of style. For
example, even though I used global variables, it makes it easier to take
that program and put it into a class that way -- I wouldn't have to change
all the references in the code so they were no longer in a struct when I
encapsulate it. Putting error handling before putting success handling is
very odd and makes the code harder to read (some people have that goal,
though), in my opinion, but I respected your style. Casting a pointer to
(void *) when freeing is actually a common practice and if you widened your
experience with C you'd see a lot of other people use it. I put fflush() in
there because I'm in the habit of flushing buffered streams -- habit -- let
me say that again, -- habit -- and so it was something I typed
automatically. Returning 0 instead of EXIT_SUCCESS is also standard, and if
you learned C when I did from the K&R book, you'd know that too. But, you
know what, I didn't want to make you look bad because your way of doing
things works as well and it is a matter of personal preference. Your coding
style is not the /RIGHT/ coding style, it is /YOUR/ coding style, Warp. If
you were argue /RIGHT/ coding style, then according to the fathers of C, I'm
actually closer to it than you.

As far as including variables I don't use, like the version, and the static
insecure char buffers, that was there for the same reason I didn't check the
command-line arguments -- I wrote it for personal use to put together an
animation quickly for a project I was working on and if I wanted to refine
the code to release to the public on a board like you did, I certainly would
have checked for those parameters. I understand that you're a perfectionist
about these things, but I'm more goal-driven than yourself, and the goal was
create motion-blur, and the goal of the post was to demonstrate how to do it
with sample code, not impress you. I understand how you might find that hard
to imagine.

Now, I have too much class to download your targa averager and nitpick over
your coding style and say it is wrong to a group of your peers. That would
be disrespectful and naive. When you get more experience working on
projects, you'll understand.

Post a reply to this message

Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> I believe my 15 years of studying and
> programming experience will come in quite handy.

  If 15 years of programming experience causes you to make programs with
the quality of the one you posted at the beginning of this thread, I find
that quite amazing.
  No offence, but the program looked like made by someone who has started
learning programming a month ago.

> Warp, I didn't argue with you about your coding styles because I didn't want
> to get into a fight over something that is largely a matter of style. For
> example, even though I used global variables, it makes it easier to take
> that program and put it into a class that way -- I wouldn't have to change
> all the references in the code so they were no longer in a struct when I
> encapsulate it.

  What I wonder is why you didn't create a class to start with. The fact
that the program is small is a lousy excuse to make it horrible, specially
if you are going to post it in public. If someone learning programming were
to study your code and enhance it he may well learn really bad habits and
get himself into trouble. In fact, by doing this you are learning bad
habits yourself.

> Putting error handling before putting success handling is
> very odd and makes the code harder to read (some people have that goal,
> though), in my opinion, but I respected your style.

  I don't understand how it is easy to read that you open a file and
handle its failure tens of lines later. The error handling was hard
to find and it was hard to associate with the line where the file was
opened.

  When opening a file success means that the program can continue normally.
That is, it doesn't have to interrupt its normal flow. Only failure means
that it needs to stop its normal flow.
  That is, the code is clear if it does something like this:

- Open the file.
- Did opening fail? If so, issue an error.
- Read the file.

  In your case what you are writing is this:

- Open the file.
- Read the file.
- Did opening fail? If so, issue an error.

  It makes no sense to keep the success check separated from the opening.

  Besides, by doing it that way you are needlessly introducing an extra
level of block nesting. The more nested blocks you have, the harder it
is to read the code.

> Casting a pointer to
> (void *) when freeing is actually a common practice and if you widened your
> experience with C you'd see a lot of other people use it.

  I have been programming C probably longer than you, and I don't remember
seeing anyone casting to void* to free memory. There's no need, it doesn't
make sense, and it's in fact dangerous.
  Consider this:

int a = 5;
free((void*)a);

  Kaboom?
  The compiler does not issue an error message, not even a warning. However,
the program will most probably crash.
  Granted, in this case it's easy to see what's wrong, but in a much longer
program a mistake like that can be pretty hard to find.

  If you, however, make "free(a)" the compiler will issue an error message.

  So I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong.

> I put fflush() in
> there because I'm in the habit of flushing buffered streams -- habit -- let
> me say that again, -- habit -- and so it was something I typed
> automatically.

  Not all habits are good.
  Certainly if you use fflush() too much when not needed you are only making
a slower program for no reason.

> Returning 0 instead of EXIT_SUCCESS is also standard, and if
> you learned C when I did from the K&R book, you'd know that too.

  No it isn't.
  There's nothing in the C standard that says that 0 is the return code
for success. The return code for success is system-dependant and that's
why EXIT_SUCCESS should be used instead. That's why EXIT_SUCCESS and
EXIT_FAILURE exist in the first place.

> But, you
> know what, I didn't want to make you look bad because your way of doing
> things works as well and it is a matter of personal preference.

  You seem to have this odd arrogant attitude. Don't you understand that
by trying so badly to make yourself sound competent you are only making
a fool of yourself?

> Your coding
> style is not the /RIGHT/ coding style, it is /YOUR/ coding style, Warp. If
> you were argue /RIGHT/ coding style, then according to the fathers of C, I'm
> actually closer to it than you.

  Yeah, I'm sure that the "fathers of C" suggest that you use tons of
global variables, never check the validity of input data, index out of
boundaries in tables (such as argv[]), read data to static buffers without
limits and make system-dependant code.

  Perhaps you should read the latest C standard and some good programming
design book.

> As far as including variables I don't use, like the version, and the static
> insecure char buffers, that was there for the same reason I didn't check the
> command-line arguments -- I wrote it for personal use to put together an
> animation quickly for a project I was working on and if I wanted to refine
> the code to release to the public on a board like you did, I certainly would
> have checked for those parameters.

  But you didn't add the checks, yet you still published the code in
a public forum. Yeah, sure.

> I understand that you're a perfectionist
> about these things, but I'm more goal-driven than yourself, and the goal was
> create motion-blur, and the goal of the post was to demonstrate how to do it
> with sample code, not impress you. I understand how you might find that hard
> to imagine.

  What I find hard to imagine is that someone who allegedly has 15 years of
programming experience can make such crappy code and isn't even embarassed
to post it in a public forum full of programmers.

> Now, I have too much class to download your targa averager and nitpick over
> your coding style and say it is wrong to a group of your peers. That would
> be disrespectful and naive. When you get more experience working on
> projects, you'll understand.

  Now you are being incredibly hypocritical. You explicitly ASKED ME to
comment on your code. Initially I did not, but then you asked so I did.
Now you are talking as if I had given you comments you didn't ask and
weren't interested in.

  As for my averager program, the code is crappy. I wrote it 6 years ago
and I certainly did not have as much experience as today. If I were to
write the same program again, it would certainly look completely different.
  I could better ask you to look at my newer code, but seeing your real
programming skills and your state of mind that would be only a waste of
time and resources since I will not be getting anything constructive.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:402109b9@news.povray.org...
> Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
>   Forming an opinion on someone's programming experience based on when
> he graduated is certainly something fool to do. Basing it on what he
> *does* and *says* is a lot less prejudiced.
>
>   I find it quite sad that you despise someone's programming experience
> based solely on when he graduated.

Warp, what ballfield are you playing in, man? Did I ever say I despised
anybody's programming experience? Where are you getting these things? No
wonder this has been such a struggle -- who are you arguing with?

> > Who said I was interested in respect?
>
>   Then what are you doing here?
>   If you want people to talk to you and answer your questions and
cooperate
> with you, you should earn their respect. This is done largely by
respecting
> them yourself. If you don't respect people and don't care about them
> respecting you and don't mind offending people at will, you are little
> more than another troll.

You are literally describing yourself and Thorsten. Whom am /I/
disrespecting? It seems the both of you are interacting with some mental
idea of what I am. And I think this mental idea is constucted to bolster
your self-esteem.

> > It really shocks me how "logical" people are so driven by emotion.
Shocks
> > and entertains.
>
>   If you start insulting people you are going to make them angry. There's
> nothing odd about that.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Warp, can't you see you're arguing for me? It's
amazing how many contridictions you guys put in your postings. It's what
makes them so entertaining.

And troll? Trolls don't post source code and answer questions. Look at your
own responses to what I post and ask yourself who the trolls are.

Post a reply to this message

Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> >   I find it quite sad that you despise someone's programming experience
> > based solely on when he graduated.

> Warp, what ballfield are you playing in, man? Did I ever say I despised
> anybody's programming experience? Where are you getting these things? No
> wonder this has been such a struggle -- who are you arguing with?

  This is a direct quote from a reply of yours to Thorsten:

"I looked you up and, wow, I didn't realize how fresh out of school you were.
You graduated with a BS in 2001? I'm really sorry, man, I didn't mean to get
old-school on you. I just assumed you had more experience based on your
attitude. When I said I've been working with POV-ray (and other 3D
applications) for almost a decade, I wasn't commenting on your experience or
anything. I really /was/ expecting a big long resume of amazing projects,
not a vague link to the Mac POV-ray site. You should take comfort in the
fact that you actually convinced me you must be all-that!!! Hey, maybe you
still are.

I know how Illinois can make some people jaded, being born in Wisconsin. We
think it's all that flat land. But, you're all our |F|riendly |I|llinois
|B|uddie|s|. It looks like you went to a good school, though. Things'll work
out. Hang in there, buddy. You'll make a big splash and laugh at all this in
five or so years."


  If that's not insulting someone based solely on the fact that he
graduated in 2001, then what is?


> You are literally describing yourself and Thorsten. Whom am /I/
> disrespecting?

  You are disrespecting Thorsten, for instance. Just read your own text
above.

> It seems the both of you are interacting with some mental
> idea of what I am. And I think this mental idea is constucted to bolster
> your self-esteem.

  The mental idea is based on your C code, your opinions on programming
which you have presented here and your arrogant attitude towards people.

> >   If you start insulting people you are going to make them angry. There's
> > nothing odd about that.

> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Warp, can't you see you're arguing for me? It's
> amazing how many contridictions you guys put in your postings. It's what
> makes them so entertaining.

> And troll? Trolls don't post source code and answer questions. Look at your
> own responses to what I post and ask yourself who the trolls are.

  Blaming others for things you are being blamed is a typical braindead
troll technique and only shows that you lack the imagination of defending
yourself with rational and original arguments, besides being childish.

  5-year olds argue with "no, I'm not, you are!", not grown-ups.

  And yes, I am insulting you. I'm not even trying to deny that. You have
deserved to be insulted with your arrogant and hypocritical attitude.
But at least my insults are original and argumented, unlike yours.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:40211af6@news.povray.org...
> Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> "I looked you up and, wow, I didn't realize how fresh out of school you
were.
> You graduated with a BS in 2001? I'm really sorry, man, I didn't mean to
get
> old-school on you. I just assumed you had more experience based on your
> attitude. When I said I've been working with POV-ray (and other 3D
> applications) for almost a decade, I wasn't commenting on your experience
or
> anything. I really /was/ expecting a big long resume of amazing projects,
> not a vague link to the Mac POV-ray site. You should take comfort in the
> fact that you actually convinced me you must be all-that!!! Hey, maybe you
> still are.
>
> I know how Illinois can make some people jaded, being born in Wisconsin.
We
> think it's all that flat land. But, you're all our |F|riendly |I|llinois
> |B|uddie|s|. It looks like you went to a good school, though. Things'll
work
> out. Hang in there, buddy. You'll make a big splash and laugh at all this
in
> five or so years."
>
>   If that's not insulting someone based solely on the fact that he
> graduated in 2001, then what is?

First off, there are many facts there, not just the fact that he graduated
in 2001. Do you feel he should be insulted by them? That's really
disturbing. I'm responding to his point that I know nothing about him. Given
how insulting he was about my ignorance about him, I was honestly expecting
a lot more. Put yourself up on a pedestal like that and you better give
reason to crane their necks upwards, my friend. Oh, and by the way, I've
never asked you guys to put me on a pedestal, although I can understand that
you would feel I am because I don't cower in your omniscient presence.

> > You are literally describing yourself and Thorsten. Whom am /I/
> > disrespecting?
>
>   You are disrespecting Thorsten, for instance. Just read your own text
> above.

Respect begets respect. Disrespect begets disrespect.

> > It seems the both of you are interacting with some mental
> > idea of what I am. And I think this mental idea is constucted to bolster
> > your self-esteem.
>
>   The mental idea is based on your C code, your opinions on programming
> which you have presented here and your arrogant attitude towards people.

*Shrug* okay.

> > >   If you start insulting people you are going to make them angry.
There's
> > > nothing odd about that.
>
> > Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Warp, can't you see you're arguing for me? It's
> > amazing how many contridictions you guys put in your postings. It's what
> > makes them so entertaining.
>
> > And troll? Trolls don't post source code and answer questions. Look at
your
> > own responses to what I post and ask yourself who the trolls are.
>
>   Blaming others for things you are being blamed is a typical braindead
> troll technique and only shows that you lack the imagination of defending
> yourself with rational and original arguments, besides being childish.

I agree. Again, something you are doing. I'm not fooled by the troll-trick,
Warp. There is plenty of evidence that I'm not a troll on this board
already.

>   5-year olds argue with "no, I'm not, you are!", not grown-ups.

Again, I agree. We agree on so many things, Warp.

>   And yes, I am insulting you. I'm not even trying to deny that. You have
> deserved to be insulted with your arrogant and hypocritical attitude.
> But at least my insults are original and argumented, unlike yours.

Then argument them. Explain how I'm being hypocritical. Hell, explain my
assertions as you see them. Listen, I can understand why you would flame me
and after I went back and read my posts I got it. I answered this thread
but, at the same time, admitted that I didn't know everything. By the logic
of the tragically insecure, that means that I don't know anything.

And furthermore, what is all this hullabaloo about knowing things anyway?
Aren't the purpose of these boards to learn? How do you expect people to
learn anything if you disrespect them for your ignorant opinions of what
they know? This is just one of the many contridictions I keep reading: a
board to learn, yet you have to know everything before you start. And if you
have inperfections, better run, boy, because we's gonna whip you good!

It must be so hard to live that way, needing so bad for people to say, "ooh,
you're so smart." Needing it so bad that even when somebody comes along LIKE
I DID EARLIER IN THIS THREAD and said how smart you are and how much I
appreciated you with complete honesty and without provocation, you still
seem to fight for it, as if you have just done a double-take and didn't hear
it because it just couldn't be true!

What I think is going on here is that Thorsten is jealous because I didn't
say that about him. And since his opinion of himself is so astronomically
high, that means that I'm stupid and must be flamed. And I think you are
defending Thorsten because you think that if you get Thorsten's favor that
you'll be more important in the POV-ray community and meet your needs.

I know you imagine I have your needs, but I don't; I don't need your
respect. I do deserve apologies, though (although I'm not naive enough about
human nature to expect them). I also know that if I don't defend myself
against these attacks that you'll lose respect for me. Probably did because
I said I was going to respond by making the software.

I also think that you don't want me to make the software because you know it
will prove you wrong (beyond sin for you). So, you want to discourage me
because you perceive my success to be a threat to your self-esteem. That is
sad, man.

Also, I talk in active-voice, which means "A Person does Something". So, as
a result, I use "you" a lot. You're not used to this direct way of speaking
so you take it as me threatening you. It so incenses you that you don't even
read the posts and take the tone as challenge to your prowess.

What is truly ironic is that I basically do worship the ground you walk on
because your targa averager, yet you see me as some sort of disrespecting
child. I think it all comes down to the fact that I don't think that if I
acknowledge your greatness that I must therefore be diminished by that
acknowledgement. What fool would ever give a compliment in that environment?

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:40211675@news.povray.org...
> Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> > I believe my 15 years of studying and
> > programming experience will come in quite handy.
>
>   If 15 years of programming experience causes you to make programs with
> the quality of the one you posted at the beginning of this thread, I find
> that quite amazing.
>   No offence, but the program looked like made by someone who has started
> learning programming a month ago.

Oh, no offense taken, Warp. I'm just surprised you gave me a whole month.

> > Warp, I didn't argue with you about your coding styles because I didn't
want
> > to get into a fight over something that is largely a matter of style.
For
> > example, even though I used global variables, it makes it easier to take
> > that program and put it into a class that way -- I wouldn't have to
change
> > all the references in the code so they were no longer in a struct when I
> > encapsulate it.
>
>   What I wonder is why you didn't create a class to start with. The fact
> that the program is small is a lousy excuse to make it horrible, specially
> if you are going to post it in public. If someone learning programming
were
> to study your code and enhance it he may well learn really bad habits and
> get himself into trouble. In fact, by doing this you are learning bad
> habits yourself.

I didn't create a class to start with because it wasn't a C++ program. Do
you mean posting code like that is a bad habit?

> > Putting error handling before putting success handling is
> > very odd and makes the code harder to read (some people have that goal,
> > though), in my opinion, but I respected your style.
>
>   I don't understand how it is easy to read that you open a file and
> handle its failure tens of lines later. The error handling was hard
> to find and it was hard to associate with the line where the file was
> opened.

You must write some pretty hard-to-read code if you can't find the end of
your blocks. Try indenting your code and putting in empty lines to break
parts of the program up. Also, if you have blocks that are that large, it
means that you need to add more methods. Only beginning programmers write
C++ programs like they are in BASIC.

>   When opening a file success means that the program can continue
normally.
> That is, it doesn't have to interrupt its normal flow. Only failure means
> that it needs to stop its normal flow.
>   That is, the code is clear if it does something like this:
>
> - Open the file.
> - Did opening fail? If so, issue an error.
> - Read the file.
>
>   In your case what you are writing is this:
>
> - Open the file.
> - Read the file.
> - Did opening fail? If so, issue an error.
>
>   It makes no sense to keep the success check separated from the opening.

Then why do programs like Java require you to write blocks of code like
this?

try
{
    Do something
}
catch (Exception ex)
{
    Failure
}

Are you saying all these people are wrong? I've never seen a person write
code like you describe in my lengthy career of programming in many different
languages. The difference between you and I is that I'm not saying YOU are
wrong for doing it that way. It's your thang... do whatchoowannado. As long
as you're consistent.

>   Besides, by doing it that way you are needlessly introducing an extra
> level of block nesting. The more nested blocks you have, the harder it
> is to read the code.

If you write blocks as lengthy as you describe, then you're right. Every
single person (without exception) who has read the... well, it's gotta be
more than a million now... lines of code that I've written have all said
that my code is so readable that they consider it "self-documenting".

> > Casting a pointer to
> > (void *) when freeing is actually a common practice and if you widened
your
> > experience with C you'd see a lot of other people use it.
>
>   I have been programming C probably longer than you, and I don't remember
> seeing anyone casting to void* to free memory. There's no need, it doesn't
> make sense, and it's in fact dangerous.
>   Consider this:
>
> int a = 5;
> free((void*)a);
>
>   Kaboom?

Well, duh, Warp; a isn't a pointer. Why would you even do that?

>   The compiler does not issue an error message, not even a warning.
However,
> the program will most probably crash.

However, without it, some compilers will report a warning that you are using
a pointer without cast because the free function prototype includes a
pointer type of void. Given that you use EXIT_SUCCESS for your return
values, I am assuming that you only program on one system, but that is just
an assumption; prove me wrong on that.

>   Granted, in this case it's easy to see what's wrong, but in a much
longer
> program a mistake like that can be pretty hard to find.

By saying something is self-evident does not support your argument. Read the
book "The Art of Deception". That's in chapter 1.

>   If you, however, make "free(a)" the compiler will issue an error
message.
>
>   So I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong.

No, I'm not.

> > I put fflush() in
> > there because I'm in the habit of flushing buffered streams -- habit -- 
let
> > me say that again, -- habit -- and so it was something I typed
> > automatically.
>
>   Not all habits are good.

I agree. However, one does not form habits without experience.

>   Certainly if you use fflush() too much when not needed you are only
making
> a slower program for no reason.

Wait... doesn't it have no effect? You're saying that those clock cycles NOT
IN A LOOP that equate to no more than a few milliseconds is making my
program slow? I've already admitted numerous times that I didn't know that I
didn't need to flush stdout and I've already said why I did; because it is a
buffered stream and I thought, because of that, it did.

> > Returning 0 instead of EXIT_SUCCESS is also standard, and if
> > you learned C when I did from the K&R book, you'd know that too.
>
>   No it isn't.
>   There's nothing in the C standard that says that 0 is the return code
> for success. The return code for success is system-dependant and that's
> why EXIT_SUCCESS should be used instead. That's why EXIT_SUCCESS and
> EXIT_FAILURE exist in the first place.

Go search the net for C programs and look for yourself. I'll wait. Some
people even use exit(0) as well. Since you don't do that, write them e-mails
and tell them they're all wrong. They'll love that.

> > But, you
> > know what, I didn't want to make you look bad because your way of doing
> > things works as well and it is a matter of personal preference.
>
>   You seem to have this odd arrogant attitude. Don't you understand that
> by trying so badly to make yourself sound competent you are only making
> a fool of yourself?

...huh? Again, you're arguing for my side against you.

> > Your coding
> > style is not the /RIGHT/ coding style, it is /YOUR/ coding style, Warp.
If
> > you were argue /RIGHT/ coding style, then according to the fathers of C,
I'm
> > actually closer to it than you.
>
>   Yeah, I'm sure that the "fathers of C" suggest that you use tons of
> global variables, never check the validity of input data, index out of
> boundaries in tables (such as argv[]), read data to static buffers without
> limits and make system-dependant code.

If they were running off a quick example like I did, they probably would do
the same thing because they understand the goal of the program was to
demonstrate a concept.

>   Perhaps you should read the latest C standard and some good programming
> design book.

Same to you.

> > As far as including variables I don't use, like the version, and the
static
> > insecure char buffers, that was there for the same reason I didn't check
the
> > command-line arguments -- I wrote it for personal use to put together an
> > animation quickly for a project I was working on and if I wanted to
refine
> > the code to release to the public on a board like you did, I certainly
would
> > have checked for those parameters.
>
>   But you didn't add the checks, yet you still published the code in
> a public forum. Yeah, sure.

Unlike yourself, I'm not insecure about my code, so I don't worry about
people like you picking it over.

> > I understand that you're a perfectionist
> > about these things, but I'm more goal-driven than yourself, and the goal
was
> > create motion-blur, and the goal of the post was to demonstrate how to
do it
> > with sample code, not impress you. I understand how you might find that
hard
> > to imagine.
>
>   What I find hard to imagine is that someone who allegedly has 15 years
of
> programming experience can make such crappy code and isn't even embarassed
> to post it in a public forum full of programmers.

Well, imagination isn't something everybody is born with.

> > Now, I have too much class to download your targa averager and nitpick
over
> > your coding style and say it is wrong to a group of your peers. That
would
> > be disrespectful and naive. When you get more experience working on
> > projects, you'll understand.
>
>   Now you are being incredibly hypocritical. You explicitly ASKED ME to
> comment on your code. Initially I did not, but then you asked so I did.
> Now you are talking as if I had given you comments you didn't ask and
> weren't interested in.

Yes, I did. And I thank you for your comments. The point is that I could
nitpick about your code in front of your peers as well, pointing out all
kinds of things that are a matter of style and saying you're WRONG, but I
don't because I have too much class and I understand that everybody is
different and I respect those differences.

>   As for my averager program, the code is crappy.

Well, well, well. To use your own argument, that's no excuse to post it on a
public web-site! All those bad coding habits you have -- you're going to
spread those, Warp!

> I wrote it 6 years ago
> and I certainly did not have as much experience as today. If I were to
> write the same program again, it would certainly look completely
different.
>   I could better ask you to look at my newer code, but seeing your real
> programming skills and your state of mind that would be only a waste of
> time and resources since I will not be getting anything constructive.

I see you realize my point now. You're not perfect and you're pre-emptively
defending yourself against my criticism about your code. You're so arrogant
that you think I actually: a. care enough about it to do so, and b. have the
time to bother.

All this and I STILL think you're talented and smart because you made the
effort to demonstrate it instead of spending all your time on boards telling
everybody how stupid they are.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:40:04 -0600, "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> I think you are
> defending Thorsten because you think that if you get Thorsten's favor that
> you'll be more important in the POV-ray community and meet your needs.

Warp doesn't need to defend Thorsten to be important in the POV-Ray community.
He is important in POV-Ray community already since years. Warp doesn't need
defence too so don't think I need to be more important in the POV-Ray
community with posting this. I just want to give you certificate that being
programmer for .... years I impressed by POV-Ray related teams loyalty. Being
humans they have human feelings and faults but they do their works permanently
with very good quality. Since this thread leads nowhere and is no more
on-topic I would suggest to finish it here.

ABX
-- 
  Acceptable use policy news.povray.org:
  "We also wish to remind you that this is a privately owned news server and
  as such you are considered an invited guest."

Post a reply to this message

Whee, I think I'll join the fray, now...

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:402125e4@news.povray.org...

> Then why do programs like Java require you to write blocks of code like
> this?
>
> try
> {
>     Do something
> }
> catch (Exception ex)
> {
>     Failure
> }
>
> Are you saying all these people are wrong? I've never seen a person write
> code like you describe in my lengthy career of programming in many
different
> languages. The difference between you and I is that I'm not saying YOU are
> wrong for doing it that way. It's your thang... do whatchoowannado. As
long
> as you're consistent.

No. What saying is the paradigm your program was written under it makes no
sense to handle errors as if you were handling an exception. Not only that,
but you generally want to handle the error in the most localised manner
possible. (Of course, being the self-proclaimed expert you are, you already
know this.)

> If you write blocks as lengthy as you describe, then you're right. Every
> single person (without exception) who has read the... well, it's gotta be
> more than a million now... lines of code that I've written have all said
> that my code is so readable that they consider it "self-documenting".

Wow. You truly are arrogant! Anyway -- Nesting blocks deeper and deeper is
bound to cause problems with code readability. Try looking at a function
that has code nested 10 levels deep as opposed to a few function with code
nested maybe 3 levels deep. There's a huge difference in understanding the
flow of the program.


> Well, duh, Warp; a isn't a pointer. Why would you even do that?

Duh. What if you happened to declare a variable some where, lets say, for
argument's sake, p. Lets assume p is an int. Lets assume p indicates the
number of pixels.

Lets assume that on a later date, you change your program, and add the
following (forgetting that p is not representing a pointer...)

free( (void*)p);

whoops! crash.

Had you simply typed free(p), the compiler would have cought the error.
Casts are a bad thing, but a necessary evil. Use them sparingly.

Of course, as you have stated, you are the epitome of perfection, and would
never make a mistake like this, even if you are casting variables left and
right.

> However, without it, some compilers will report a warning that you are
using
> a pointer without cast because the free function prototype includes a
> pointer type of void. Given that you use EXIT_SUCCESS for your return
> values, I am assuming that you only program on one system, but that is
just
> an assumption; prove me wrong on that.

Granted, I haven't had a lot of experience with a multitude of compilers,
but this argument for using a cast to void is fallacious.

> No, I'm not.

"I'm right and you're wrong, I'm always right and you're always wrong" -- 
This is essentially what you are saying. I'm guessing that you know
everything there is to know about everything because you're always right
about everything. I'm sure you still believe the world is flat, and anyone
who thinks differently from you is wrong.

> Wait... doesn't it have no effect? You're saying that those clock cycles
NOT
> IN A LOOP that equate to no more than a few milliseconds is making my
> program slow? I've already admitted numerous times that I didn't know that
I
> didn't need to flush stdout and I've already said why I did; because it is
a
> buffered stream and I thought, because of that, it did.

It is a function call... you have that to worry about, and without really
wanting to take the time to study the source to fflush in detail, I coudn't
begin to describe how much overhead you are incurring. I think, by way of
the fact that you are using fflush in the context you are using it in only
strengthens everyone's point that you really don't know what you are talking
about, and you really don't know when to shut up.

> Go search the net for C programs and look for yourself. I'll wait. Some
> people even use exit(0) as well. Since you don't do that, write them
e-mails
> and tell them they're all wrong. They'll love that.

Many people to return 0 from main, but, that still doesn't make it an
acceptable standard for portability.

> >   You seem to have this odd arrogant attitude. Don't you understand that
> > by trying so badly to make yourself sound competent you are only making
> > a fool of yourself?
>
> ...huh? Again, you're arguing for my side against you.

As warp has stated, and I tend to see this pattern as well. I don't know how
Warp's comment is contradictory, but obviously, somewhere in your hopelessly
flawed stream of logic it makes sense to you.

> If they were running off a quick example like I did, they probably would
do
> the same thing because they understand the goal of the program was to
> demonstrate a concept.

Generally, sample code leaves some things out for readabilty's sake. I'm not
making an argument against a quickly hacked together example in this case. I
don't care about that.

> Unlike yourself, I'm not insecure about my code, so I don't worry about
> people like you picking it over.

I think by the amount of argument you have put forth, and the constant
attempts to justify everything you say as being corrected you are quite
insecure in general.

> >   As for my averager program, the code is crappy.
>
> Well, well, well. To use your own argument, that's no excuse to post it on
a
> public web-site! All those bad coding habits you have -- you're going to
> spread those, Warp!

At least Warp can own up to it and doesn't make a big deal when told said
code is "crappy"

> I see you realize my point now. You're not perfect and you're
pre-emptively
> defending yourself against my criticism about your code. You're so
arrogant
> that you think I actually: a. care enough about it to do so, and b. have
the
> time to bother.

Was there ever a point other than foaming at the mouth?

> All this and I STILL think you're talented and smart because you made the
> effort to demonstrate it instead of spending all your time on boards
telling
> everybody how stupid they are.

And what do you think *you* are doing?

I have to love the way you end each and every one of your diatribes with
some vague, empty quasi-patontheback just before delivering the last insult.

I've ignored this thread to this point, but seeing as it's the thread that
won't die I just had to inject my 2 cents worth into it. My opinion of you
is that you're a real smart-ass, who really doesn't know what he's talking
about and gets hurt and offended when someone tells him so.

I think we have found the new BDW.

Post a reply to this message

"Mike Raiford" <mra### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:40213121$1@news.povray.org...
> Whee, I think I'll join the fray, now...
>
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
> news:402125e4@news.povray.org...
> No. What saying is the paradigm your program was written under it makes no
> sense to handle errors as if you were handling an exception. Not only
that,
> but you generally want to handle the error in the most localised manner
> possible. (Of course, being the self-proclaimed expert you are, you
already
> know this.)

I think this is a case of misunderstanding when entering a conversation
half-way. Never, at any point, from post one, had I claimed to be an expert.
You guys are criticizing me for doing something that you do in your own
sentences. Let's take the high road, yet you get the digs in. This is called
passive-aggressive. I'm not saying I didn't do that (gotta what out for your
absolute black-and-white logic -- btw, that's an example of what I'm talking
about), I'm saying that we're more alike than different.

I think I understand what the misunderstanding is on this point, however.
You're saying that I should do this:

if something happens and fails
  do something, like return.

do something if it works


where I must have done this

if something happens and it works
   do something
else
   handle the error


Now PAY ATTENTION. Like all the other points, I'm not saying your WRONG for
doing it your way. Nor am I say I'm RIGHT for doing it my way. I'm saying it
is a matter of style and they're both RIGHT. Or both WRONG if you're a cup
is half-empty kind of guy.

> > If you write blocks as lengthy as you describe, then you're right. Every
> > single person (without exception) who has read the... well, it's gotta
be
> > more than a million now... lines of code that I've written have all said
> > that my code is so readable that they consider it "self-documenting".
>
> Wow. You truly are arrogant!

Why? I mean, I am, but why do you say that after that paragraph?

> Anyway -- Nesting blocks deeper and deeper is
> bound to cause problems with code readability.

...yes, I agree, that's why I said you should seperate things out into
methods if it gets too nested.

> Try looking at a function
> that has code nested 10 levels deep as opposed to a few function with code
> nested maybe 3 levels deep. There's a huge difference in understanding the
> flow of the program.

People who write code 10 nested ten levels deep are not good coders.

> > Well, duh, Warp; a isn't a pointer. Why would you even do that?
>
> Duh. What if you happened to declare a variable some where, lets say, for
> argument's sake, p. Lets assume p is an int. Lets assume p indicates the
> number of pixels.
>
> Lets assume that on a later date, you change your program, and add the
> following (forgetting that p is not representing a pointer...)
>
> free( (void*)p);
>
> whoops! crash.

Listen, if you guys don't understand your code enough to free freeing
something that isn't a pointer, then you really ought to be using Visual
Basic or something. C isn't for the timid or for those who don't pay
attention.

> Had you simply typed free(p), the compiler would have cought the error.
> Casts are a bad thing, but a necessary evil. Use them sparingly.

Yes, that's true. Because of this thread, I'm going to stop casting using
(void *). I'm sure the paragraph before somehow translated into, "This guy
is going to just cast to void * now out of some sort of spite," but you see,
that would be arrogant; a word you are misusing anyway, since arrogant means
having a higher opinion of oneself than generally warranted and when I say
I'm arrogant I'm tongue-and-cheek because more times than I can count now
I've said: a. I don't know everything, b. I'm here to learn more, and c. You
guys know a lot! But, you're not reacting to what I say, but you're reacting
out of defensiveness (probably because I use the word "you" a lot or
something). No, I don't fit with people like you and I never have because I
confront. I'm sure you even took the /last sentence/ as an offense because
of the "like you" part. You are probably imaging tone in the sentence just
to support your perception of me because you've made up your mind.

> Of course, as you have stated, you are the epitome of perfection, and
would
> never make a mistake like this, even if you are casting variables left and
> right.

If you're going to make a claim like that, you'd better support it. Plus, I
don't use words like epitome. I'm not trying to make people think I'm smart
by using pretentious words. I aim to communicate not obfuscate.

> > However, without it, some compilers will report a warning that you are
> using
> > a pointer without cast because the free function prototype includes a
> > pointer type of void. Given that you use EXIT_SUCCESS for your return
> > values, I am assuming that you only program on one system, but that is
> just
> > an assumption; prove me wrong on that.
>
> Granted, I haven't had a lot of experience with a multitude of compilers,
> but this argument for using a cast to void is fallacious.
>
> > No, I'm not.
>
> "I'm right and you're wrong, I'm always right and you're always wrong" -- 
> This is essentially what you are saying. I'm guessing that you know
> everything there is to know about everything because you're always right
> about everything. I'm sure you still believe the world is flat, and anyone
> who thinks differently from you is wrong.

I'm sorry, I mean to write "No, it's not." And how many times can I write
that I don't know everything and admit to things I'm wrong about until you
stop having this internalized perception about me? 10? 20? No, seriously,
I'm askin'.

> > Wait... doesn't it have no effect? You're saying that those clock cycles
> NOT
> > IN A LOOP that equate to no more than a few milliseconds is making my
> > program slow? I've already admitted numerous times that I didn't know
that
> I
> > didn't need to flush stdout and I've already said why I did; because it
is
> a
> > buffered stream and I thought, because of that, it did.
>
> It is a function call... you have that to worry about, and without really
> wanting to take the time to study the source to fflush in detail, I
coudn't
> begin to describe how much overhead you are incurring. I think, by way of
> the fact that you are using fflush in the context you are using it in only
> strengthens everyone's point that you really don't know what you are
talking
> about, and you really don't know when to shut up.

Talk about fallacious arguments. This is a standard one, actually, where by
saying that one fact is true, then all other facts are true. You're saying
that because I misunderstood how fflush works that, therefore, I don't know
what I'm talking about and should shut up. So, since I'm upfront, I'll tell
you why I continue this thread:

1. It amuses me. You'll take that as arrogant. Go ahead, but if you look it
up, it isn't.
2. On usenet, if you flame somebody like you have, you reap what you sow.
You want a flame war, you got one; I don't mind a battle. You don't want
one, then you need to learn when to shut up yourself.
3. If I don't respond to such claims by people like TF, then you're gonna
continue to be abusive to me. That's human nature. You're not objectifying
me as some body to bolster your ego off of. Do that with other people if you
want.

> > Go search the net for C programs and look for yourself. I'll wait. Some
> > people even use exit(0) as well. Since you don't do that, write them
> e-mails
> > and tell them they're all wrong. They'll love that.
>
> Many people to return 0 from main, but, that still doesn't make it an
> acceptable standard for portability.

I agree. That is a proper response. No cuts, not put-downs; just  pure
reason. I like that.

> > >   You seem to have this odd arrogant attitude. Don't you understand
that
> > > by trying so badly to make yourself sound competent you are only
making
> > > a fool of yourself?
> >
> > ...huh? Again, you're arguing for my side against you.
>
> As warp has stated, and I tend to see this pattern as well. I don't know
how
> Warp's comment is contradictory, but obviously, somewhere in your
hopelessly
> flawed stream of logic it makes sense to you.

I'll map it out. Warp is continuing to bash my coding abilities to make
himself sound competent. Whether he is making a fool out of himself is just
a matter of perspective.

> > If they were running off a quick example like I did, they probably would
> do
> > the same thing because they understand the goal of the program was to
> > demonstrate a concept.
>
> Generally, sample code leaves some things out for readabilty's sake. I'm
not
> making an argument against a quickly hacked together example in this case.
I
> don't care about that.

We're in agreement on that.

> > Unlike yourself, I'm not insecure about my code, so I don't worry about
> > people like you picking it over.
>
> I think by the amount of argument you have put forth, and the constant
> attempts to justify everything you say as being corrected you are quite
> insecure in general.

If you read the posts, I'm the guy on the defense here, not you. When you
say somebody isn't worth listening to, you're asking for a fight. Oh no; now
you got one, and you're complaining?

> > >   As for my averager program, the code is crappy.
> >
> > Well, well, well. To use your own argument, that's no excuse to post it
on
> a
> > public web-site! All those bad coding habits you have -- you're going to
> > spread those, Warp!
>
> At least Warp can own up to it and doesn't make a big deal when told said
> code is "crappy"

Where have I not owned up... wait, wait, you haven't read the previous
postings, have you? This is a long thread. I'll give you time to catch up.
I'll wait.

> > I see you realize my point now. You're not perfect and you're
> pre-emptively
> > defending yourself against my criticism about your code. You're so
> arrogant
> > that you think I actually: a. care enough about it to do so, and b. have
> the
> > time to bother.
>
> Was there ever a point other than foaming at the mouth?

Yes. The point is, if you can't take the heat, don't burn the kitchen. Or, a
more biblical reference, he who is without programming sin cast the first
stone. For clarity, he did not cast stones until after TF's comment. I
really enjoyed his critique of my code and I value it.

> > All this and I STILL think you're talented and smart because you made
the
> > effort to demonstrate it instead of spending all your time on boards
> telling
> > everybody how stupid they are.
>
> And what do you think *you* are doing?

I've never said you were stupid. I'm responding to people saying I'm stupid.
I guess I do care because I keep writing. But, again, it's not a sign of
insecurity, but instead, the joy of a good fight.

> I have to love the way you end each and every one of your diatribes with
> some vague, empty quasi-patontheback just before delivering the last
insult.

What you don't know is that those aren't quasi. If you want proof of that,
look earlier in the thread where I patted Warp on the back way before this
flame ever started. But, I can understand your perception if you're just
jumping-in now.

> I've ignored this thread to this point, but seeing as it's the thread that
> won't die I just had to inject my 2 cents worth into it. My opinion of you
> is that you're a real smart-ass, who really doesn't know what he's talking
> about and gets hurt and offended when someone tells him so.

Okay. You're entitled to that opinion. Injecting your 2 cents worth doesn't
kill threads, though, so don't try and pretend you're interested in it
stopping.

> I think we have found the new BDW.

Uh oh, another acronym like plonk. I'm cowering. Really. If you want this
thread to die, stop responding to it. You see, I'm obligated to persue the
last word because I'm the one defending myself against TF. You aren't
obligated to continue it.

Post a reply to this message

Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> Oh, and by the way, I've
> never asked you guys to put me on a pedestal, although I can understand that
> you would feel I am because I don't cower in your omniscient presence.

> There is plenty of evidence that I'm not a troll on this board
> already.

> It must be so hard to live that way, needing so bad for people to say, "ooh,
> you're so smart."

> What I think is going on here is that Thorsten is jealous because I didn't
> say that about him.

> I do deserve apologies

> you perceive my success to be a threat to your self-esteem.

  I think I get it now: You are not serious; you can't be. You are just
joking around, amusing yourself with the responses you get. (Well, that's
the very definition of a troll.)
  Either that, or you desperately need professional help.

  For your sake, I hope it's just the former.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:40213f9a$1@news.povray.org...


> if something happens and fails
>   do something, like return.
>
> do something if it works

No, more like:

if something happens and fails
    Handle the error, If the error cannot be dealt with,
    Display a message to the user. (i.e. "Unable to open test.png, Please
check that
    the file exists and try again."), and return. If the error can be dealt
with without
    bothering the user, i.e. a situation such as opening the file, and
discovering it is not
    in the exact format as expected, try other formats. (See above if
correction fails).
   after dealing with the error successfully, continue.

Otherwise, just continue.


> where I must have done this

> if something happens and it works
>    do something
> else
>    handle the error

Essentially you have this:

if(operation_1 successful)
    [do stuff]
        if(operation_2 successful)
            [do stuff]
            .
            .
            .
        else
            [Print panic message, Bail Out]
else
    [Print panic message, Bail Out]

Instead of that, this makes more sense:

if(operation_1 failed)
    Handle Error, Drop out if necessary

[do stuff]

if(operation_2 failed)
     Handle Error, Drop out if necessary

[do stuff]

.
.
.

Really, which makes more sense?

> Now PAY ATTENTION. Like all the other points, I'm not saying your WRONG
for
> doing it your way. Nor am I say I'm RIGHT for doing it my way. I'm saying
it
> is a matter of style and they're both RIGHT. Or both WRONG if you're a cup
> is half-empty kind of guy.

I was paying attention. I think my details above demonstrate this a bit more
clearly.

> > > more than a million now... lines of code that I've written have all
said
> > > that my code is so readable that they consider it "self-documenting".
> >
> > Wow. You truly are arrogant!
>
> Why? I mean, I am, but why do you say that after that paragraph?

Read the above quoted paragraph. something about "[they] have all said
that my code is so readable that they consider it 'self-documenting'". That
is a truely arrogant thing to say.

> > Anyway -- Nesting blocks deeper and deeper is
> > bound to cause problems with code readability.
>
> ...yes, I agree, that's why I said you should seperate things out into
> methods if it gets too nested.

I needed mentioning due to your example of If's and Elses scattered
everywhere to handle error conditions.

>
> People who write code 10 nested ten levels deep are not good coders.
>

Was that a necessary comment?

> Listen, if you guys don't understand your code enough to free freeing
> something that isn't a pointer, then you really ought to be using Visual
> Basic or something. C isn't for the timid or for those who don't pay
> attention.

It's not about not understanding one's own code. It's more along the lines
of returning to a significantly large code-base and adding changes (perhaps
in the example given to resolve memory leaks). Getting into the habit of
casting something for the sake of casting it gains nothing and can cause
major headaches.

> that would be arrogant; a word you are misusing anyway, since arrogant
means
> having a higher opinion of oneself than generally warranted and when I say

Obviously.

> I'm arrogant I'm tongue-and-cheek because more times than I can count now
> I've said: a. I don't know everything, b. I'm here to learn more, and c.
You
> guys know a lot! But, you're not reacting to what I say, but you're
reacting
> out of defensiveness (probably because I use the word "you" a lot or
> something). No, I don't fit with people like you and I never have because
I
> confront. I'm sure you even took the /last sentence/ as an offense because
> of the "like you" part. You are probably imaging tone in the sentence just
> to support your perception of me because you've made up your mind.

I don't necessarily think it's defensiveness. I think some of it is sheer
irritation.

> If you're going to make a claim like that, you'd better support it. Plus,
I
> don't use words like epitome. I'm not trying to make people think I'm
smart
> by using pretentious words. I aim to communicate not obfuscate.

I'm not trying to "look" smart by using the words I use. If I wanted to
"look" smart, then I would have used a spelling and grammar checker before
sending the post. If you don't understand the word, look it up.
http://www.dictionary.com is a good place to start. In this case, I would
say that epitome was an appropriate word:

[From Dictionary.com]

e·pit·o·me n. :
1.  A representative or example of a class or type: "He is seen... as the
epitome of the hawkish, right-of-center intellectual" (Paul Kennedy).

2.  A brief summary, as of a book or article; an abstract.

> I'm sorry, I mean to write "No, it's not." And how many times can I write
> that I don't know everything and admit to things I'm wrong about until you
> stop having this internalized perception about me? 10? 20? No, seriously,
> I'm askin'.

<sigh> My perception of you is borne out of the way you've missandled
constructive criticism on your code.

> > begin to describe how much overhead you are incurring. I think, by way
of
> > the fact that you are using fflush in the context you are using it in
only
> > strengthens everyone's point that you really don't know what you are
> talking
> > about, and you really don't know when to shut up.
>
> Talk about fallacious arguments. This is a standard one, actually, where
by
> saying that one fact is true, then all other facts are true. You're saying
> that because I misunderstood how fflush works that, therefore, I don't
know
> what I'm talking about and should shut up. So, since I'm upfront, I'll
tell
> you why I continue this thread:

No. I'm saying your arguments are full of logical flaws because you do not
understand everything, but act as if you do. And I didn't say you should
shut up. Re-read the above quoted sentence. You do not know WHEN to shut up.
At some point you have to shrug and walk away.

> 1. It amuses me. You'll take that as arrogant. Go ahead, but if you look
it
> up, it isn't.

This thread amuses me, as well. You amuse me.

> 2. On usenet, if you flame somebody like you have, you reap what you sow.
> You want a flame war, you got one; I don't mind a battle. You don't want
> one, then you need to learn when to shut up yourself.

I'd say you asked for it... but, then what do I know?

> I'll map it out. Warp is continuing to bash my coding abilities to make
> himself sound competent. Whether he is making a fool out of himself is
just
> a matter of perspective.

I think you're twisting what people are saying to you in your head, I'm sure
I'll be soon arguing against myself, just like Warp.

> If you read the posts, I'm the guy on the defense here, not you. When you
> say somebody isn't worth listening to, you're asking for a fight. Oh no;
now
> you got one, and you're complaining?

Er, I think you were asking for the fight. Defensiveness is usually caused
by a lack of confidence.

> Where have I not owned up... wait, wait, you haven't read the previous
> postings, have you? This is a long thread. I'll give you time to catch up.
> I'll wait.

Ok. So you have "owned-up", after having it driven into your head that what
you were doing wasn't necessarily the best way to go about it.

> Yes. The point is, if you can't take the heat, don't burn the kitchen. Or,
a
> more biblical reference, he who is without programming sin cast the first
> stone. For clarity, he did not cast stones until after TF's comment. I
> really enjoyed his critique of my code and I value it.

Did anybody come here and ask you to start a flame-war?

> I've never said you were stupid. I'm responding to people saying I'm
stupid.
> I guess I do care because I keep writing. But, again, it's not a sign of
> insecurity, but instead, the joy of a good fight.

This seems to be trollish behavior.

> What you don't know is that those aren't quasi. If you want proof of that,
> look earlier in the thread where I patted Warp on the back way before this
> flame ever started. But, I can understand your perception if you're just
> jumping-in now.

"I think you're a great person, but you're such an impudent jerk for
correcting my code when I posted it publically" -- Essentially what I said
you're doing you're doing.

> Okay. You're entitled to that opinion. Injecting your 2 cents worth
doesn't
> kill threads, though, so don't try and pretend you're interested in it
> stopping.

Never said I was interested in it stopping, I just wanted to join in the
fun.

> > I think we have found the new BDW.

> Uh oh, another acronym like plonk. I'm cowering. Really. If you want this
> thread to die, stop responding to it. You see, I'm obligated to persue the
> last word because I'm the one defending myself against TF. You aren't
> obligated to continue it.

Nothing like plonk. If you hadn't been living under a rock, you'd know what
it meant, but enough of that. Since when was it an *obligation* to continue
the argument? No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to continue
this.

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:40214caa@news.povray.org...
> Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
>   I think I get it now: You are not serious; you can't be. You are just
> joking around, amusing yourself with the responses you get. (Well, that's
> the very definition of a troll.)
>   Either that, or you desperately need professional help.
>
>   For your sake, I hope it's just the former.

I'll admit, I am amused by your responses, but that is why I continue to
post. It's actually a culture thing. Let me explain.

In my culture, the American culture, it is not customary for us to start
fights (although we sometimes break that custom, of course, just like any
custom anywhere) but to end them. We have a saying here: "Don't tread on
me". We don't back down when you insult us and if you want to exchange fire,
then we will return it with vigor and fight to the bitter end. If you trace
through this thread, you will see that I didn't start this fight. I don't
turn the other cheek and neither does my culture. I'm not Jesus. I offered,
just like my culture does, to be helpful. That doesn't mean I or my culture
is weak. Don't forget that and we'll get along just fine.

Now, if you want to keep firing away with your insults, you go ahead. But if
you are going to cry when they come back your way, you shouldn't pull the
trigger in the first place. If I am stupid and it is self-evident, as you
few keep saying, then you don't need to point it out, do you? Just let me
make an ass out of myself. Just ignore me and I'll go away, right? Or, deny
me access to the boards, if you really think this is trolling. But you know
it isn't. You know what is driving this thread and you know that this is
limited to this thread. So, if you want the thread to end, stop posting.

Learn not to tread on me and we'll be fine.

Post a reply to this message

"Mike Raiford" <mra### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:40215055$1@news.povray.org...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
> news:40213f9a$1@news.povray.org...
<snip>Helpful and informative stuff</snip>

> > > > more than a million now... lines of code that I've written have all
> said
> > > > that my code is so readable that they consider it
"self-documenting".
> > >
> > > Wow. You truly are arrogant!
> >
> > Why? I mean, I am, but why do you say that after that paragraph?
>
> Read the above quoted paragraph. something about "[they] have all said
> that my code is so readable that they consider it 'self-documenting'".
That
> is a truely arrogant thing to say.

Arrogance means a grandiose claim that is not warranted. To be arrogant, it
would have to be untrue. Since it is true, it is not arrogant. To assume it
is arrogant (untrue) is insulting.

> > > Anyway -- Nesting blocks deeper and deeper is
> > > bound to cause problems with code readability.
> >
> > ...yes, I agree, that's why I said you should seperate things out into
> > methods if it gets too nested.
>
> I needed mentioning due to your example of If's and Elses scattered
> everywhere to handle error conditions.

Okay, I respect your opinion.

> > People who write code 10 nested ten levels deep are not good coders.
>
> Was that a necessary comment?

Yes. It is something they teach in programming 101 and needed repeating in
this context.

> > Listen, if you guys don't understand your code enough to free freeing
> > something that isn't a pointer, then you really ought to be using Visual
> > Basic or something. C isn't for the timid or for those who don't pay
> > attention.
>
> It's not about not understanding one's own code. It's more along the lines
> of returning to a significantly large code-base and adding changes
(perhaps
> in the example given to resolve memory leaks). Getting into the habit of
> casting something for the sake of casting it gains nothing and can cause
> major headaches.

If you free a pointer, you must make sure it is a pointer first. This
statement stands on its own. Yes, I agree that it isn't necessary to cast to
void * to free a pointer and yes I can see all kinds of reasons not to.
Because you might fumble and free something that isn't a pointer isn't one
of them. A disciplined programmer doesn't do that.

(Since I need to be so precise: The last sentence does not say you are not a
disciplined programmer.)

> > that would be arrogant; a word you are misusing anyway, since arrogant
> means
> > having a higher opinion of oneself than generally warranted and when I
say
>
> Obviously.

If it is obvious, it doesn't require mention, does it?

> > I'm arrogant I'm tongue-and-cheek because more times than I can count
now
> > I've said: a. I don't know everything, b. I'm here to learn more, and c.
> You
> > guys know a lot! But, you're not reacting to what I say, but you're
> reacting
> > out of defensiveness (probably because I use the word "you" a lot or
> > something). No, I don't fit with people like you and I never have
because
> I
> > confront. I'm sure you even took the /last sentence/ as an offense
because
> > of the "like you" part. You are probably imaging tone in the sentence
just
> > to support your perception of me because you've made up your mind.
>
> I don't necessarily think it's defensiveness. I think some of it is sheer
> irritation.

They have close buttons for that.

> > If you're going to make a claim like that, you'd better support it.
Plus,
> I
> > don't use words like epitome. I'm not trying to make people think I'm
> smart
> > by using pretentious words. I aim to communicate not obfuscate.
>
> I'm not trying to "look" smart by using the words I use. If I wanted to
> "look" smart, then I would have used a spelling and grammar checker before
> sending the post. If you don't understand the word, look it up.
> http://www.dictionary.com is a good place to start. In this case, I would
> say that epitome was an appropriate word:
>
> [From Dictionary.com]
>
> e·pit·o·me n. :
> 1.  A representative or example of a class or type: "He is seen... as the
> epitome of the hawkish, right-of-center intellectual" (Paul Kennedy).
>
> 2.  A brief summary, as of a book or article; an abstract.

I didn't say I didn't know what epitome meant. I said that it is pretentious
to use it. Since we're so free with our unsoliticted criticism here, I get
to criticise too. Goose and gander.

> > I'm sorry, I mean to write "No, it's not." And how many times can I
write
> > that I don't know everything and admit to things I'm wrong about until
you
> > stop having this internalized perception about me? 10? 20? No,
seriously,
> > I'm askin'.
>
> <sigh> My perception of you is borne out of the way you've missandled
> constructive criticism on your code.

What, asking for it and thanking him for it?

> > > begin to describe how much overhead you are incurring. I think, by way
> of
> > > the fact that you are using fflush in the context you are using it in
> only
> > > strengthens everyone's point that you really don't know what you are
> > talking
> > > about, and you really don't know when to shut up.
> >
> > Talk about fallacious arguments. This is a standard one, actually, where
> by
> > saying that one fact is true, then all other facts are true. You're
saying
> > that because I misunderstood how fflush works that, therefore, I don't
> know
> > what I'm talking about and should shut up. So, since I'm upfront, I'll
> tell
> > you why I continue this thread:
>
> No. I'm saying your arguments are full of logical flaws because you do not
> understand everything, but act as if you do. And I didn't say you should
> shut up. Re-read the above quoted sentence. You do not know WHEN to shut
up.
> At some point you have to shrug and walk away.

Describe how one should act then when they do not know everything.
I understand why you'd want me to shrug and walk away. After all, when we
punch somebody in the face, we generally don't like it when they get back up
and punch you back.

> > 1. It amuses me. You'll take that as arrogant. Go ahead, but if you look
> it
> > up, it isn't.
>
> This thread amuses me, as well. You amuse me.

And here I thought you were going to go all Joe Peschi on me.

> > 2. On usenet, if you flame somebody like you have, you reap what you
sow.
> > You want a flame war, you got one; I don't mind a battle. You don't want
> > one, then you need to learn when to shut up yourself.
>
> I'd say you asked for it... but, then what do I know?

I asked for it by admitting I'm not all knowing. It's like throwing steak to
a pack of hounds. "Here's a guy we can stroke our egos over." You picked the
wrong guy.

> > I'll map it out. Warp is continuing to bash my coding abilities to make
> > himself sound competent. Whether he is making a fool out of himself is
> just
> > a matter of perspective.
>
> I think you're twisting what people are saying to you in your head, I'm
sure
> I'll be soon arguing against myself, just like Warp.

Actually, that happens to be my same assertion about you as well. By reading
in insults in sentences that aren't insults, you're twisting what I'm saying
to you in your head. In fact, you're hearing what you want to hear. THAT'S
what I find so amusing... to see people get so defensive about things that
have no implied meanings. And when I don't mean to imply, I am pretty
upfront about it.

> > If you read the posts, I'm the guy on the defense here, not you. When
you
> > say somebody isn't worth listening to, you're asking for a fight. Oh no;
> now
> > you got one, and you're complaining?
>
> Er, I think you were asking for the fight. Defensiveness is usually caused
> by a lack of confidence.

Yes, as you guys clearly demonstrate.

> > Where have I not owned up... wait, wait, you haven't read the previous
> > postings, have you? This is a long thread. I'll give you time to catch
up.
> > I'll wait.
>
> Ok. So you have "owned-up", after having it driven into your head that
what
> you were doing wasn't necessarily the best way to go about it.

You didn't read it. Go and read it.

> > Yes. The point is, if you can't take the heat, don't burn the kitchen.
Or,
> a
> > more biblical reference, he who is without programming sin cast the
first
> > stone. For clarity, he did not cast stones until after TF's comment. I
> > really enjoyed his critique of my code and I value it.
>
> Did anybody come here and ask you to start a flame-war?

I didn't start it. Go and read. Again, I'll wait.

> > I've never said you were stupid. I'm responding to people saying I'm
> stupid.
> > I guess I do care because I keep writing. But, again, it's not a sign of
> > insecurity, but instead, the joy of a good fight.
>
> This seems to be trollish behavior.

By that definition, then, TF is a troll. After all, why does one bother to
bait me unless they want a fight?

> > What you don't know is that those aren't quasi. If you want proof of
that,
> > look earlier in the thread where I patted Warp on the back way before
this
> > flame ever started. But, I can understand your perception if you're just
> > jumping-in now.
>
> "I think you're a great person, but you're such an impudent jerk for
> correcting my code when I posted it publically" -- Essentially what I said
> you're doing you're doing.

I sure don't remember witing that sentence that you are claiming to quote
from me. Please provide the date so I can look that up and apologize if I
did. From what I remember, I asked him for his guidance because I respect
him and when he gave it, I responded with grace, humility, and appreciation.
I like it when these things are in writing. You can always just go and read
it for proof.

> > Okay. You're entitled to that opinion. Injecting your 2 cents worth
> doesn't
> > kill threads, though, so don't try and pretend you're interested in it
> > stopping.
>
> Never said I was interested in it stopping, I just wanted to join in the
> fun.

So, you're a troll then?

> > > I think we have found the new BDW.
>
> > Uh oh, another acronym like plonk. I'm cowering. Really. If you want
this
> > thread to die, stop responding to it. You see, I'm obligated to persue
the
> > last word because I'm the one defending myself against TF. You aren't
> > obligated to continue it.
>
> Nothing like plonk. If you hadn't been living under a rock, you'd know
what
> it meant, but enough of that. Since when was it an *obligation* to
continue
> the argument? No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to continue
> this.

You can also argue that a person isn't obligated to smack you back when you
punch them in the face. That isn't how I operate, however. Go punch someone
else if you need to feel big.

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message

> If you free a pointer, you must make sure it is a pointer first. This
> statement stands on its own. Yes, I agree that it isn't necessary to cast
to
> void * to free a pointer and yes I can see all kinds of reasons not to.
> Because you might fumble and free something that isn't a pointer isn't one
> of them. A disciplined programmer doesn't do that.

True, but (in the real world) when faced with deadlines, and dealing with
code others have written, casting like this is dangerous. Eventually, it
will happen that you free a pointer that was never a pointer.

> (Since I need to be so precise: The last sentence does not say you are not
a
> disciplined programmer.)

I didn't necessarily think you were meaning me specifically. Besides, you
have no idea what my programming abilities are, nor have I revealed such
abilities.

> If it is obvious, it doesn't require mention, does it?

Hmm. I was a bit too subtle. No one writes perfect code. No code is
perfectly self-documenting. You were inferring in your statement that
everyone says your code is self documenting. This to me is an arrogant
statement.

> They have close buttons for that.

Yes, but sometimes, people want to slap other people in the back of the head
when they are acting obnoxious.

> I didn't say I didn't know what epitome meant. I said that it is
pretentious
> to use it. Since we're so free with our unsoliticted criticism here, I get
> to criticise too. Goose and gander.

What word would *you* have used?

> What, asking for it and thanking him for it?

Some way to thank him. Kind of like flipping off the person who let you on
to the freeway?

> Describe how one should act then when they do not know everything.

I guess the first step would be not to act like you know everything. Listen.
Ask questions.

> I understand why you'd want me to shrug and walk away. After all, when we
> punch somebody in the face, we generally don't like it when they get back
up
> and punch you back.

So, on the street, if you don't like how someone acts, or if they criticize
you, you're going to jump into a fist-fight, or at the very least a heated
hours-long debate?

> I asked for it by admitting I'm not all knowing. It's like throwing steak
to
> a pack of hounds. "Here's a guy we can stroke our egos over." You picked
the
> wrong guy.

I think that's a load of crap. You asked for it by being argumentative to
anyone who criticizes you.

> Actually, that happens to be my same assertion about you as well. By
reading
> in insults in sentences that aren't insults, you're twisting what I'm
saying
> to you in your head. In fact, you're hearing what you want to hear. THAT'S
> what I find so amusing... to see people get so defensive about things that
> have no implied meanings. And when I don't mean to imply, I am pretty
> upfront about it.

You're right. I don't see any subtlety in what you're saying.

> I didn't start it. Go and read. Again, I'll wait.

Hmm. you're right. someone told you you were wrong, and *that* was what
started the flame war. My mistake, boy do I feel foolish, now.

> By that definition, then, TF is a troll. After all, why does one bother to
> bait me unless they want a fight?

No. But hijacking a thread for your own personal enjoyment is considered
trollish. What was the original topic of this thread? True, Thorsten, Warp
and I are doing nothing but feeding the troll, in this case.

> > "I think you're a great person, but you're such an impudent jerk for
> > correcting my code when I posted it publically" -- Essentially what I
said
> > you're doing you're doing.

> I sure don't remember witing that sentence that you are claiming to quote
> from me. Please provide the date so I can look that up and apologize if I
> did. From what I remember, I asked him for his guidance because I respect
> him and when he gave it, I responded with grace, humility, and
appreciation.
> I like it when these things are in writing. You can always just go and
read
> it for proof.

Whoops. I was paraphrasing. And-- I don't necessarily think you have
responded with grace, humility and appreciation.

> So, you're a troll then?

See above.

> You can also argue that a person isn't obligated to smack you back when
you
> punch them in the face. That isn't how I operate, however. Go punch
someone
> else if you need to feel big.

So, you admit you're a coward?

OK.. now, slightly off topic, it seems to me in other places besides this
thread you're actually sane. My observation is someone has ruffled your
feathers here, and that's the reason for the storm of posts. That's why I
say it's usually a good idea to shrug and walk away.

Post a reply to this message

"Mike Raiford" <mra### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:402164ae$1@news.povray.org...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
>
> > If you free a pointer, you must make sure it is a pointer first. This
> > statement stands on its own. Yes, I agree that it isn't necessary to
cast
> to
> > void * to free a pointer and yes I can see all kinds of reasons not to.
> > Because you might fumble and free something that isn't a pointer isn't
one
> > of them. A disciplined programmer doesn't do that.
>
> True, but (in the real world) when faced with deadlines, and dealing with
> code others have written, casting like this is dangerous. Eventually, it
> will happen that you free a pointer that was never a pointer.

Not you, but that other person, according to what you are saying. If they
don't put competent C/C++ programmers on projects, they'll have bigger
problems than that.

> > (Since I need to be so precise: The last sentence does not say you are
not
> a
> > disciplined programmer.)
>
> I didn't necessarily think you were meaning me specifically. Besides, you
> have no idea what my programming abilities are, nor have I revealed such
> abilities.

A very true fact. All I have to go on is that you're criticising mine. Now,
criticising, like ignorance, doesn't necessarily mean negative. I like
criticism. I learn from criticism. I learned that I don't have to flush
stdio. I learned that I shouldn't cast pointers to void when I free them.
Learning is what I like to do and this thread makes me happy.

> > If it is obvious, it doesn't require mention, does it?
>
> Hmm. I was a bit too subtle. No one writes perfect code. No code is
> perfectly self-documenting. You were inferring in your statement that
> everyone says your code is self documenting. This to me is an arrogant
> statement.

Everybody on my projects actually do say my code is self documenting. I've
never had a single exception, so I am not making a generalization at all. I
really do write perfectly self-documenting code when it is a real project
with other people and not just a little motion blur program I threw together
for myself that I shared with others (not part of a project context, but to
show how to average the pixels together). All I can do is make that claim,
however, it's up to you whether you believe it or not.

> > They have close buttons for that.
>
> Yes, but sometimes, people want to slap other people in the back of the
head
> when they are acting obnoxious.

You're only saying I'm obnoxious because I'm responding. Therefore, stop
responding and I'll stop being obnoxious.

> > I didn't say I didn't know what epitome meant. I said that it is
> pretentious
> > to use it. Since we're so free with our unsoliticted criticism here, I
get
> > to criticise too. Goose and gander.
>
> What word would *you* have used?

"Of course, as you have stated, you are the epitome of perfection, and would
never make a mistake like this, even if you are casting variables left and
right."

I would have said,

"Of course, as you said, you're perfect and would never make a mistake like
this."

But, that's just me. "You are the epitome" is technically not necessary in
your sentence, but I'm not one to nitpick about grammar either. I'm just
saying that, just like you take my sentences as arrogant, I take yours as
pretentious.

> > What, asking for it and thanking him for it?
>
> Some way to thank him. Kind of like flipping off the person who let you on
> to the freeway?

When TF decided to punch me in the mouth, he walked over and started
kicking. Everything was civil until that.

> > Describe how one should act then when they do not know everything.
>
> I guess the first step would be not to act like you know everything.
Listen.
> Ask questions.

Funny. That's what I was doing. I still don't think you've read my posts. At
least, not without a pre-judgment.

> > I understand why you'd want me to shrug and walk away. After all, when
we
> > punch somebody in the face, we generally don't like it when they get
back
> up
> > and punch you back.
>
> So, on the street, if you don't like how someone acts, or if they
criticize
> you, you're going to jump into a fist-fight, or at the very least a heated
> hours-long debate?

If they don't like how I act, then that's fine. Until the punch me in the
face. Then I either get into the fist-fight or heated debate. Whatever I
need to do to remind influence that person not to punch me again.

> > I asked for it by admitting I'm not all knowing. It's like throwing
steak
> to
> > a pack of hounds. "Here's a guy we can stroke our egos over." You picked
> the
> > wrong guy.
>
> I think that's a load of crap. You asked for it by being argumentative to
> anyone who criticizes you.

Telling people that I'm stupid and not to be listened to is not criticism,
it is abuse. Learn the difference.

> > Actually, that happens to be my same assertion about you as well. By
> reading
> > in insults in sentences that aren't insults, you're twisting what I'm
> saying
> > to you in your head. In fact, you're hearing what you want to hear.
THAT'S
> > what I find so amusing... to see people get so defensive about things
that
> > have no implied meanings. And when I don't mean to imply, I am pretty
> > upfront about it.
>
> You're right. I don't see any subtlety in what you're saying.

Good.

> > I didn't start it. Go and read. Again, I'll wait.
>
> Hmm. you're right. someone told you you were wrong, and *that* was what
> started the flame war. My mistake, boy do I feel foolish, now.

Repeat how they said I was wrong.

> > By that definition, then, TF is a troll. After all, why does one bother
to
> > bait me unless they want a fight?
>
> No. But hijacking a thread for your own personal enjoyment is considered
> trollish. What was the original topic of this thread? True, Thorsten, Warp
> and I are doing nothing but feeding the troll, in this case.

That's not what I'm doing. That I happen to enjoy defending myself is an
after-effect. I'm not doing this for the enjoyment itself.

> > > "I think you're a great person, but you're such an impudent jerk for
> > > correcting my code when I posted it publically" -- Essentially what I
> said
> > > you're doing you're doing.
>
> > I sure don't remember witing that sentence that you are claiming to
quote
> > from me. Please provide the date so I can look that up and apologize if
I
> > did. From what I remember, I asked him for his guidance because I
respect
> > him and when he gave it, I responded with grace, humility, and
> appreciation.
> > I like it when these things are in writing. You can always just go and
> read
> > it for proof.
>
> Whoops. I was paraphrasing. And-- I don't necessarily think you have
> responded with grace, humility and appreciation.

Don't put quotes around paraphrases. And, you're entitled to your opinion.
If you want to back that up with more quotes from that message -- from
before he kicked me -- feel free to do so.

> > So, you're a troll then?
>
> See above.

See above.

> > You can also argue that a person isn't obligated to smack you back when
> you
> > punch them in the face. That isn't how I operate, however. Go punch
> someone
> > else if you need to feel big.
>
> So, you admit you're a coward?

...how do you get that from the paragraph? Do you mean to be courageous is
to take punches in the face? I suppose that might apply to boxing, but not
to this.

> OK.. now, slightly off topic, it seems to me in other places besides this
> thread you're actually sane. My observation is someone has ruffled your
> feathers here, and that's the reason for the storm of posts. That's why I
> say it's usually a good idea to shrug and walk away.

Yes. Thorsten ruffled my feathers by saying something disrespectful to me
and I responded in kind. Then the rest of you joined in. I'm responding in
kind. When you're respectful, I respond in kind. If you don't want
responses, stop responding because I'm going to respond in kind.

Post a reply to this message

In article <402125e4@news.povray.org>, dan### [at] yahoocom says...
> try
> {
>     Do something
> }
> catch (Exception ex)
> {
>     Failure
> }
> 
> Are you saying all these people are wrong?

Just my two cents here, but this isn't exactly the same things. 
However... If you opened the file, then tested to see if it worked and 
intentionally throw an exception, then it would be the same. What you are 
doing is manually handling an event that languages like Java can 
sometimes automatically generate an error event for. When this is the 
case, it is a real good idea to make sure things happen in the correct 
order. There are quite a few cases where checking after the fact can be 
flat out lethal to your program. In fact when dealing with Windows, the 
damn API is so flaky that it may actually appear to work and only crash 
your program, and the OS, *after* you try to shut down the program. 
Believe me, I have had it happen. lol

-- 
void main () {
  If Schrödingers_cat is alive  
    call functional_code()
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

Post a reply to this message

"Patrick Elliott" <sha### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a8b3cdca47d8a80989996@news.povray.org...
> In article <402125e4@news.povray.org>, dan### [at] yahoocom says...
> > try
> > {
> >     Do something
> > }
> > catch (Exception ex)
> > {
> >     Failure
> > }
> >
> > Are you saying all these people are wrong?
>
> Just my two cents here, but this isn't exactly the same things.
> However... If you opened the file, then tested to see if it worked and
> intentionally throw an exception, then it would be the same. What you are
> doing is manually handling an event that languages like Java can
> sometimes automatically generate an error event for. When this is the
> case, it is a real good idea to make sure things happen in the correct
> order. There are quite a few cases where checking after the fact can be
> flat out lethal to your program. In fact when dealing with Windows, the
> damn API is so flaky that it may actually appear to work and only crash
> your program, and the OS, *after* you try to shut down the program.
> Believe me, I have had it happen. lol

That's a really good point about the order. Also, I've been really diving
deep into the Windows API and I've noticed two things: 1. it's really,
really poorly documented, and 2. you have to do everything precisely the way
they want you to or it's going to crash and not pretty-like. It only makes
sense what those components are doing after you trace it using the debugger.
And even then, it's not obvious. I'm really worried about writing code that
works great on my PC but crashes elsewhere because of that. What I had to do
to handle window-resizing in an instant, efficient manner best not be said
in mixed company :-)

What I'm really surprised about is that they haven't put all those structs
into convenient-to-use classes. I struggled for an entire night to get
version info from my VS_VERSION_INFO resource. It turns out I have to create
two HGLOBALS, then lock the resource, and then use VerQueryInfo, and it
/still/ didn't work -- I guess they just don't want you reading that
resource directly, and I tried passing the executable file name and it
didn't work /then/ either. I did massive searches on the net to see other
people doing this and I couldn't find a single, consistent explanation of
how to get this information. Why the couldn't just make a class called
CVersionInfo and throw the data in there it is beyond me. I also had to make
some REALLY ugly code to read PNGs from the resource instead of a seperate
file. Here it is:

     IStream *p_objStream;
     HRSRC objResource;
     HGLOBAL objSrc;
     HGLOBAL objData;

     // Load the about image.
     objResource = FindResource(NULL,
MAKEINTRESOURCE(IDR_TITLE_TRANSPARENT), "PNG");
     objSrc = LoadResource(NULL, objResource);
     objData = GlobalAlloc(GMEM_FIXED, SizeofResource(NULL, objResource));
     CopyMemory(LPVOID(objData), LockResource(objSrc), SizeofResource(NULL,
objResource));
     CreateStreamOnHGlobal(objData, TRUE, &p_objStream);
     m_imgAbout.Load(p_objStream);

Why they create a CImage class and not enable it to load image data from a
resource like this:

    m_imgAbout.Load(IDB_PNG_FILE);

is beyond me. And even though I have the PNG now, and have set the window
transparent, and have overridden OnErase, I still wind up getting opaque
white where the alpha=0 area is. The rest of the shadowing and stuff works
(I'm looking to make an AboutBox like Photoshop does), yet when it is
alpha=0, it screws up. I'm still trying to get that to work and haven't
found anything on the web about it.

I've only been on this journey for a week now and already I can understand
why so many of my Windows programs crash. It isn't that the programmers are
bad, it's that Microsoft can't seem to get their act together. From what TF
said, I'm really expecting that to be true about DirectX as well. If anybody
has an suggestions on how to deal with this, I'd really appreciate hearing
them (and don't listen to those guys -- if those suggestions don't contain
blatant insults, I don't bite -- the proof is in the thread.) At least .NET
is cleaning a lot of things up now, although I have yet to figure out how to
use a .NET specific class (like MemoryStream) in my C++ code.

> -- 
> void main () {
>   If Schrödingers_cat is alive
>     call functional_code()
>   else
>     call crash_windows();
> }

LOL :-) Take good care of that cat!!!

Post a reply to this message

"Darren" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message
news:40219931$1@news.povray.org...
> Mike Raiford wrote:
> > Essentially you have this:
> >
> If you're a "structured programming" fan, the first makes more sense.
> What if a requirement comes up "by the way, print a message just before
> returning from this routine"? In that case, the former has a definite
> advantage.
>
> The cleverest solution I've seen is
>     still_good = true
>     if (still_good) {
>         still_good = operation1();
>         if (!still_good) handle it,
>             possibly setting still_good to true again.
>      }
>      if (still_good) {
>          still_good = operation2();
>          if (!still_good) handle it;
>      }
>      if (still_good) {
>          still_good = operation3();
>       and so on.
> Of course, with some languages, this can turn into
>      still_good = still_good && op1();
>      still_good = still_good && op2();

I like that approach because it forces the person to handle every case and
not be lazy about the way they do it. What that is doing is kind of like
what Java does, only the test is more implied in Java. For example, the same
code in Java-esque would be:

    try
    {
        operation1();
    }
    catch (Exception e)
    {
        handle it
    }
    ... and so forth.

If you are really smart about your exceptions, a big try block can be a lot
more compact:

    try
    {
        operation1();
        operation2();
        operation3();
    }
    catch (Operation1Exception e)
    {
        handle it
    }
    catch (Operation2Exception e)
    {
        handle it
    }
    catch (Operation3Exception e)
    {
        handle it
    }

or, even better, if they all send the same exception and the toString()
method on the exception contains useful output, this is nice too:

    try
    {
        operation1();
        operation2();
        operation3();
    }
    catch (OperationException e)
    {
        System.err.println(e.toString());
    }

What you described is a really concise way of doing it in C, I think. Also,
Visual C++ .NET has the try{} catch{} structure now. I'm not sure if the
latest version of g++ has something like that yet, but I wouldn't be
surprised if it did or does soon.

Thanks for the feedback, Darren, fellow RoadRunner enthusiast! :-)

Post a reply to this message

In article <40219d4b$1@news.povray.org> , "Dan P" 
<dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

> What you described is a really concise way of doing it in C, I think. Also,
> Visual C++ .NET has the try{} catch{} structure now. I'm not sure if the
> latest version of g++ has something like that yet, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if it did or does soon.

Sorry, I cannot resist:

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,
ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,
ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!


Oh, and for anybody else wondering why I am laughing, the "try{} catch{}
structure", correctly called exception handling, has been around for much
longer (since the mid-1980s) than he claims to have been a programming
(since 1989).  Visual C++ as well as g++ (the gcc C++ compiler) have
supported exception handling for as long as they have supported C++.  And
exception handling has been mentioned in any C++ book in the last decade.
Very hard to miss for anybody who has ever written a single line of C++
code!

Thus, there is no longer any doubt that he is just a troll who has wasted
our time in the past few days :-(

q.e.d.


So, I have to apologise to every serious visitor around for having fed this
troll for such a long time!  Seriously!  I should have just really killfiled
him, not just said so.  Sorry!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich
e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg

I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:4021b072@news.povray.org...
> In article <40219d4b$1@news.povray.org> , "Dan P"
> <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
>
> So, I have to apologise to every serious visitor around for having fed
this
> troll for such a long time!  Seriously!  I should have just really
killfiled
> him, not just said so.  Sorry!
>
>     Thorsten

Okay, I just figured out what is going on here.
Good one, guys, I'll admit, you actually got me hot-and-bothered for a while
there.

Warp, I apologize for going off on you. You never stopped being a hero of
mine.
And TF? Great job at baiting me, man. You got me good.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:23:30 -0600, Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> Also, I've been really diving
> deep into the Windows API and I've noticed two things: 1. it's really,
> really poorly documented, and 2. you have to do everything precisely the 
> way they want you to or it's going to crash and not pretty-like.

That's funny. I've always found the Windows API to have very extensive and 
detailed documentation; much better than most other APIs I've encountered. 
It takes a little while to get accustomed to the style of documentation 
though.
As for your second point, I can agree to some extent. For me the problem 
isn't so much the conseqeunces of doing something wrong, so much as the 
fact that the "right" way of doing things is sometimes unnecessarily 
complicated and archaic. Part of the price you pay for backwards 
compatibility I guess; the core of the API is very, very old.


> It only makes
> sense what those components are doing after you trace it using the 
> debugger.
> And even then, it's not obvious. I'm really worried about writing code 
> that
> works great on my PC but crashes elsewhere because of that. What I had 
> to do
> to handle window-resizing in an instant, efficient manner best not be 
> said
> in mixed company :-)

Actually, I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Just about the 
only reason I ever use the WinAPI directly these days is that I'm 
confident it will work as intended on other machines (running Windows). 
Problems arise only when using stuff like DirectX or OpenGL; differing 
hardware capabilities and driver versions can really wreak havoc then.


> What I'm really surprised about is that they haven't put all those 
> structs
> into convenient-to-use classes. I struggled for an entire night to get
> version info from my VS_VERSION_INFO resource. It turns out I have to 
> create
> two HGLOBALS, then lock the resource, and then use VerQueryInfo, and it
> /still/ didn't work -- I guess they just don't want you reading that
> resource directly, and I tried passing the executable file name and it
> didn't work /then/ either. I did massive searches on the net to see other
> people doing this and I couldn't find a single, consistent explanation of
> how to get this information.

Version info is supposed to be retrieved with GetFileVersionInfo & 
VerQueryValue, is it not?
The only time I've had to load a resource explicitly was when I had 
resources containing custom data. All the standard resource types have 
special functions for retrieving the data.


> Why the couldn't just make a class called
> CVersionInfo and throw the data in there it is beyond me.

The WinAPI is a C-based API. If you want class wrappers, you need to find 
a C++ framework, e.g. wxWindows, QT, FOX, gtkmm, etc.. Note that I do not 
include MFC in that list; I personally find MFC to be utterly useless.


> I also had to make
> some REALLY ugly code to read PNGs from the resource instead of a 
> seperate
> file. Here it is:
>
>      IStream *p_objStream;
>      HRSRC objResource;
>      HGLOBAL objSrc;
>      HGLOBAL objData;
>
>      // Load the about image.
>      objResource = FindResource(NULL,
> MAKEINTRESOURCE(IDR_TITLE_TRANSPARENT), "PNG");
>      objSrc = LoadResource(NULL, objResource);
>      objData = GlobalAlloc(GMEM_FIXED, SizeofResource(NULL, 
> objResource));
>      CopyMemory(LPVOID(objData), LockResource(objSrc), 
> SizeofResource(NULL,
> objResource));
>      CreateStreamOnHGlobal(objData, TRUE, &p_objStream);
>      m_imgAbout.Load(p_objStream);
>
> Why they create a CImage class and not enable it to load image data from 
> a resource like this:
>
>     m_imgAbout.Load(IDB_PNG_FILE);
>
> is beyond me.

As I said, I don't use MFC myself, but it seems to me that 
CImage::LoadFromResource would fit the bill. Did that not work for you?


> I've only been on this journey for a week now and already I can 
> understand
> why so many of my Windows programs crash. It isn't that the programmers 
> are
> bad, it's that Microsoft can't seem to get their act together. From what 
> TF
> said, I'm really expecting that to be true about DirectX as well.

If you think the regular WinAPI is bad, you'll really hate DirectX. It's 
more of the same, except now you have to deal with COM interfaces as well. 
If you intend to use DirectX, you'll want to write/find/steal some good 
wrappers to encapsulate the nitty-gritty stuff. I managed to get some 
fairly smooth usage out of DirectSound that way. DirectDraw/3D is a little 
tougher to wrap, mainly because those interfaces are pretty huge.


__
FE

Post a reply to this message

In article <40219b12$1@news.povray.org>, dan### [at] yahoocom says...
> is beyond me. And even though I have the PNG now, and have set the window
> transparent, and have overridden OnErase, I still wind up getting opaque
> white where the alpha=0 area is. The rest of the shadowing and stuff works
> (I'm looking to make an AboutBox like Photoshop does), yet when it is
> alpha=0, it screws up. I'm still trying to get that to work and haven't
> found anything on the web about it.
> 

Well. The only C++ I ever did was a few weeks in some class called 
'current concepts' at college. I need to get into it and figure out how 
to code in it, but never really liked the issues involved with trying to 
figure it out. Since recently trying to code something in VB that 
required accessing the Windows API to do some stuff VB doesn't allow, 
this has gone from dislike to borderline fear. lol

However, I would be quite happy to try, even if the first basic project 
was nothing but a replacement for the damn Hotbar gadget I use with IE. 
Hotbar only makes what on my machine is an unstable IE into a disaster 
and the new version for some damn reason integrates into Outlook and 
screws with it too. The problem...? I can't for the life of me find 
usable documentation of how to create the sub-resource for the coolbar 
(or rebar as some call it) interface as IE uses it. It isn't the same as 
a normal coolbar, but is a dll encapsulated subbar or whatever they call 
it that gets placed on a rebar. It needs to implement special intefaces 
for IE besides and then has to be registered in some goofy way to work. I 
am surprised Hotbar and a few others figured out how the hell to do it. 
lol

Most people btw take the cheap way out and just alter a single registry 
key, so it points to a bmp file. But IE literally doesn't know how to 
stretch to fit this image and what idiot uses jpg (which sometimes refuse 
to display properly under 98 as background or desktop images) or bmp, 
which in the case of something like the desktop, can take up more room 
than some complete program installations. :(

Bloody pain in the ass finding decent, let alone usable documentation for 
how anything on windows works. :p Could you imagine the screams of pain 
if MS convinced motherboard manufacturers to install the API as part of 
the system bios, the way Apple does? People would be jumping out of 
windows like when the stock market crashed. lol

I have to agree with you. Most stuff written for windows runs like crap 
and only well under XP, because no one actually has a clue how to make 
any of it work right in the first place. They just use the same defective 
code over and over. After all, is did work once, 'sort of', so it should 
be fine to leave it in the next version too, 'more or less'. lol

-- 
void main () {
  If Schrödingers_cat is alive  
    call functional_code()
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

Post a reply to this message

"Patrick Elliott" <sha### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a8c6fb548f52222989999@news.povray.org...
> In article <40219b12$1@news.povray.org>, dan### [at] yahoocom says...
> > is beyond me. And even though I have the PNG now, and have set the
window
> > transparent, and have overridden OnErase, I still wind up getting opaque
> > white where the alpha=0 area is. The rest of the shadowing and stuff
works
> > (I'm looking to make an AboutBox like Photoshop does), yet when it is
> > alpha=0, it screws up. I'm still trying to get that to work and haven't
> > found anything on the web about it.
> >

> However, I would be quite happy to try, <snip />

Thanks, man!

Here is the code for the about box:
http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/about.shtml

Here is the source PNG
http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/title_transparent.png

And here is the executable (go to About):
http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/COLDstitch.exe

I've currently just started stubbing out the application so nothing else
works but the about box.
Thanks for your help!!!

Post a reply to this message

Just for kicks, here is the code I used to create the snowflakes in case
anybody might find it useful:


#include "colors.inc"
#include "shapes.inc"
#include "rand.inc"



#declare BAR_WIDTH = 0.04;
#declare BAR_EDGE = 0.04;



background
{
 color rgb <0, 0, 0>
}



camera
{
 location <0, 0, -1>
 look_at <0, 0, 0>

 up y
 right image_width / image_height * x
}



light_source
{
 <-100, 100, -100>
 color White
}



#macro FlakeBar(n)

 merge
 {
  cone { <0, 0, 0>, BAR_WIDTH, <0, 1, 0>, 0 }

  #local i = 0;

  #local RN = seed(n);

  #while (i < 4)

   #local by = rand(RN);
   #local bl = rand(RN) * 0.3 + 0.1;

   cone { <0, 0, 0>, BAR_WIDTH, <0, bl, 0>, 0 rotate 45*z translate by*y }
   cone { <0, 0, 0>, BAR_WIDTH, <0, bl, 0>, 0 rotate -45*z translate by*y }

   #local i = i + 1;

  #end
 }

#end




#macro Flake(n)

 object { FlakeBar(n) }
 object { FlakeBar(n) rotate 60*z }
 object { FlakeBar(n) rotate 120*z }
 object { FlakeBar(n) rotate 180*z }
 object { FlakeBar(n) rotate 240*z }
 object { FlakeBar(n) rotate 300*z }

#end



#macro SnowFlake()

 merge
 {
  Flake(ceil(rand(RdmA)*65535))

  pigment
  {
   color rgbf <0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 1>
  }


  finish
  {
   specular 1
  }


  scale <0.05, 0.05, 0.05>
 }

#end



#local i = 0;

#while (i < 1024)

 object { SnowFlake() rotate <RRand(-30, 30, RdmA), RRand(-30, 30, RdmA),
RRand(-30, 30, RdmA)> translate VRand_In_Sphere(RdmA) }

 #local i = i + 1;

#end

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in news:4024403b@news.povray.org:

> http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/COLDstitch.exe

MFC71D.DLL could not be found...And it is too late at night for me to go 
look for it ;)

-- 
Tom
_________________________________
The Internet Movie Project
http://www.imp.org/

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Galvin" <tom### [at] imporg> wrote in message
news:Xns94881314FA449tomatimporg@203.29.75.35...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
news:4024403b@news.povray.org:
>
> > http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/COLDstitch.exe
>
> MFC71D.DLL could not be found...And it is too late at night for me to go
> look for it ;)

Ah, I learned something -- to distribute the program, I need to statically
link the MFC library, not load it as a shared DLL. Also, I uploaded the
debug version, which is 2M, but this time, I uploaded the release version,
which is only 600K.

I'll work now (I'm excited; this is exactly what is great about coding in a
community!)

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in news:402511fa@news.povray.org:

> http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/COLDstitch.exe

gdiplus.dll could not be found

-- 
Tom
_________________________________
The Internet Movie Project
http://www.imp.org/

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Galvin" <tom### [at] imporg> wrote in message
news:Xns948881BCE17BEtomatimporg@203.29.75.35...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
news:402511fa@news.povray.org:
>
> > http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/COLDstitch.exe
>
> gdiplus.dll could not be found

Wow, it looks like I'll have to distribute that file as well. I'll zip-up
the release build when I get back home tonight. This is one of those times
when I wish I was programming for the Mac again.

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:40253274$1@news.povray.org...
> "Tom Galvin" <tom### [at] imporg> wrote in message
> news:Xns948881BCE17BEtomatimporg@203.29.75.35...
> > "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
> news:402511fa@news.povray.org:
> >
> > > http://<broken link>/coldsuite/coldstitch/COLDstitch.exe
> >
> > gdiplus.dll could not be found
>
> Wow, it looks like I'll have to distribute that file as well. I'll zip-up
> the release build when I get back home tonight. This is one of those times
> when I wish I was programming for the Mac again.

Okay, I found it -- my installer will have to set this up when I deploy the
app --

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=BFC0B436-9015-43E2-81A3-54938B6F4614

Again, COLDstitch is designed to exploit the Windows OS, and anything below
98 won't be supported (and anything below XP/2000 won't have the transparent
dialog box either, but that's going to be optional).

I use the CImage class in GDI+ to load the PNG. However, if I find I don't
use that class anywhere else in the application, I'm going to dump it and
just put a solid bitmap up there because it isn't worth limiting my audience
for an about box (no matter how cool it would look to have a transparent one
like Photoshop does).

PS: Sweet IRTC animation, Tom! May your reaper find SPAM asap :-)

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:402557f7$1@news.povray.org...

> Again, COLDstitch is designed to exploit the Windows OS, and anything
below
> 98 won't be supported (and anything below XP/2000 won't have the
transparent
> dialog box either, but that's going to be optional).
>
> I use the CImage class in GDI+ to load the PNG. However, if I find I don't
> use that class anywhere else in the application, I'm going to dump it and
> just put a solid bitmap up there because it isn't worth limiting my
audience
> for an about box (no matter how cool it would look to have a transparent
one
> like Photoshop does).

This thread will never die ;)

Hmm... I've had some success with libpng, but it's a bit difficult to use,
at first, but once you get used to it it's no problem.

libpng can be found here:
http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html

IIRC, the only licensing requirement for libpng is to mention it's use
somewhere in the application.

Post a reply to this message

"Michael Raiford" <mra### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:4025af0b$1@news.povray.org...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
>
> This thread will never die ;)

Well, it's sorta just morphed into something new now. Maybe we should take
it to off-topic :-)

> Hmm... I've had some success with libpng, but it's a bit difficult to use,
> at first, but once you get used to it it's no problem.

Hey, sweet! Since this project is open-source (I'll use the GNU public
license), I don't mind using another person's library if it will do the
trick. I'm more than happy to list as many people as possible.

> libpng can be found here:
> http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/libpng.html
>
> IIRC, the only licensing requirement for libpng is to mention it's use
> somewhere in the application.

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
news:402557f7$1@news.povray.org: 


> 
> PS: Sweet IRTC animation, Tom! May your reaper find SPAM asap :-)
> 
> 

I am just the new age janitor for the project.  The real credit goes to the 
other people in the credits.  They did all the creative work.


-- 
Tom
_________________________________
The Internet Movie Project
http://www.imp.org/

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Galvin" <tom### [at] imporg> wrote in message
news:Xns948AC7A43BBEFtomatimporg@203.29.75.35...
> "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in
> news:402557f7$1@news.povray.org:
>
> > PS: Sweet IRTC animation, Tom! May your reaper find SPAM asap :-)
> >
> I am just the new age janitor for the project.  The real credit goes to
the
> other people in the credits.  They did all the creative work.

When people come together as a team they outdo what the individual can do -- 
if you weren't on it, it would have been diminished :-)

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:48:15 -0600, "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom>
wrote:

>Nope. Neither did I. TF is 25, however, so if he has 20 years of programming
>experience, that's one impressive kid. But, Mozart...

I'll be 24 in March and have been (amateurishly) programming for 19
years in more than a dozen of programming and markup languages. In
fact I wrote, debug and ran my first BASIC programs on paper when I
was 4 because I only got my Apple II when I was 5. Does that make me a
Mozart? :) Yet, it would be years before I can reach Warp's or
Thorsten's level, if they quit programming now.
Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] vipbg
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

Post a reply to this message

"Peter Popov" <pet### [at] vipbg> wrote in message
news:4pom20d66iev83c2m5354e0eiihe2k4eoj@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:48:15 -0600, "Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom>
> wrote:
>
> >Nope. Neither did I. TF is 25, however, so if he has 20 years of
programming
> >experience, that's one impressive kid. But, Mozart...
>
> I'll be 24 in March and have been (amateurishly) programming for 19
> years in more than a dozen of programming and markup languages. In
> fact I wrote, debug and ran my first BASIC programs on paper when I
> was 4 because I only got my Apple II when I was 5. Does that make me a
> Mozart? :) Yet, it would be years before I can reach Warp's or
> Thorsten's level, if they quit programming now.

I owe all you guys an apology. I've had friends read this post and point out
that I jumped personal right away when I shouldn't have. I felt I was being
personally attacked by Thorsten and I overreacted -- what he did was not a
personal attack, according to the prevailing opinions, and so my responses
were not appropriate.

Please forgive my overreaction.

Post a reply to this message

"Dan P" <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:402be567$1@news.povray.org...
> "Peter Popov" <pet### [at] vipbg> wrote in message
> news:4pom20d66iev83c2m5354e0eiihe2k4eoj@4ax.com...
>
> > I'll be 24 in March and have been (amateurishly) programming for 19
> > years in more than a dozen of programming and markup languages. In
> > fact I wrote, debug and ran my first BASIC programs on paper when I
> > was 4 because I only got my Apple II when I was 5. Does that make me a
> > Mozart? :)

Er, actually, better! :-)
Pprogramming at 4! That actually beats Mozart!!!

Post a reply to this message