in news:3bb719c3@news.povray.org Rune wrote:

> Ok, but that's rather inefficient.

 Don't think so, it doesn't matter much wether you have a mesh with 10 
normals in the normal_vertices and a normal_indices list with 10.000 
entries, or 10.000 normals, most identical, in the normal_vertices and 
no need for a normal_indices list. The first one may be a bit smaller 
in size, the second one may parse a bit faster (untested).

> I think there's plenty of good reasons to implement the feature I've
> proposed.

> Is there anybody besides me who thinks it would be a good idea?

 I think it is too specific for a direct POV-Ray implementation, but it 
is very interesting as macro implementation. The latter for two 
reasons, first, we'll have a nice animation possibility.
 Second, in writing the macros you'll probably run into some problems 
with array manipulation. The speed of looping through arrays. There is 
no direct way to search in the content of an array. There is no way you 
can 'directly' manipulate all of the content of an array, say apply a 
function to each vector in it. Now if you can define this kind of 
problems accurately and can convince the Team that these should be 
possible to do from inside POV, without the need of macros, there would 
be a 'bigger gain' than by implementing what you proposed.

Ingo

-- 
Photography: http://members.home.nl/ingoogni/
Pov-Ray    : http://members.home.nl/seed7/

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"Ken" wrote:
> Rune wrote:
> > I think there's plenty of good reasons to
> > implement the feature I've proposed.
> >
> > Is there anybody besides me who thinks it would be a good idea?
>
> Actually I don't think it is a good idea. I haveno use for it.

I'm sure you don't. I haven't seen many animations from you. I haven't seen
very much POV-Ray work from you at all... ;)

But almost all serious computer animation includes character animation and
that's currently the weakness of POV-Ray. If it would be possible to animate
poser characters and the like rather easily from within POV-Ray it could
really revolutionize POV-Ray animation I think.

> This is one of those features that would benefit only a handful
> of people and 99.9% of the other users would never use it.

I don't think so. What makes you think that?

> The POV-Team can't even come up with a simple spline function
> that satisfies you and now you want something 20 times more
> difficult to implement. I don't see it happening.

FYI this group is povray.unofficial.patches

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
Rune's World:    http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated June 26)
POV-Ray Users:   http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/povrayusers/
POV-Ray Webring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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Rune wrote:
> 
> But almost all serious computer animation includes character animation and
> that's currently the weakness of POV-Ray. If it would be possible to animate
> poser characters and the like rather easily from within POV-Ray it could
> really revolutionize POV-Ray animation I think.
> 

But Povray is certainly not a character animator and not a modeller.  What
you suggest is a specialized capability for manipulating mesh data.  It
has of course advantages to implement this in Povray - take the cloth
simulation patch as an example for this - but the purpose is quite special
so it probably won't become part of a general Povray version.  

On the other hand if some new general 'hooks' are required for efficiently
implementing it in SDL (like 'weighting transforms') i see no problem of
those becoming part of a future (megapov) version.  

Christoph

-- 
Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
IsoWood include, radiosity tutorial, TransSkin and other 
things on: http://www.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de/~chris/

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Rune wrote:
>
> But almost all serious computer animation includes character animation and
> that's currently the weakness of POV-Ray. If it would be possible to animate
> poser characters and the like rather easily from within POV-Ray it could
> really revolutionize POV-Ray animation I think.

All the serious computer animations have been done with a system that has a
GUI. Very few people can do Toy Story by writing "...<34,234.23,2343>} blah{
1231,2132,<234,2334,853>..." 

When there is GUI to back it up then it's a good idea.
 
_____________
Kari Kivisalo

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I proposed something like this in my wish-list for 4.0, but I'm afraid that
it will remain a wish with the attitude most POVers have about keeping
modeller and renderer separate, something which I don't really mind
combining. The only way to really get a receptive audience for a patch is to
just sit down and program it yourself. If they like it, they will come.

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"Tony[B]" wrote:
> 
> ...with the attitude most POVers have about keeping modeller and renderer
> separate, something which I don't really mind combining.

Heretic!

-- 
Ken Tyler

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> If it would be possible to animate
> poser characters and the like rather easily from within POV-Ray
> it could really revolutionize POV-Ray animation I think.

Animating Poser characters can be already be done within Poser and the
results can be exported to Povray. I did a test with a few hundred running
horses some time ago.
You're right in saying that character animation is a weakness of POV-Ray,
but I fail to see how a POV-Ray-only solution could be useful from a
practical point of view (I mean for creating full animations, not just tests
to prove a point).

G.


**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
Graphic experiments
Pov-ray gallery

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"Tony[B]" wrote:
> 
> I proposed something like this in my wish-list for 4.0, but I'm afraid that
> it will remain a wish with the attitude most POVers have about keeping
> modeller and renderer separate, something which I don't really mind
> combining.

Apart from personal preferences this has clear practical reasons.

> The only way to really get a receptive audience for a patch is to
> just sit down and program it yourself. If they like it, they will come.

Oh, come on.  This is not a 'ask for a feature and someone will program it
within a day'-club.  A few critical opinions and suggestions for
alternatives and someone starts thinking you are ignorant and not
constructive... ;-)

Christoph

-- 
Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
IsoWood include, radiosity tutorial, TransSkin and other 
things on: http://www.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de/~chris/

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Rune wrote:
> 
> "Ken" wrote:
> > Actually I don't think it is a good idea. I haveno use for it.
> 
> I'm sure you don't. I haven't seen many animations from you. I haven't seen
> very much POV-Ray work from you at all... ;)

Huh?

Just because I don't let you see it does not mean that I am not still
using POV-Ray for both stills and animations. In fact just three weeks
ago I was working on using ISOs to model the effects of rain drops
hitting a pool of water complete with photon generated caustics. Didn't
quite get the effects I wanted so I moved on to something else. I have
a long history of half finished projects that seldom get to the point
where I feel they are worthy of sharing with others.

-- 
Ken Tyler

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"Ken" wrote:
> Huh?
>
> Just because I don't let you see it does not mean
> that I am not still using POV-Ray for both stills
> and animations.

I didn't mean to offend you in any way - I've seen a few of your images and
they're very nice.

Yet still you're not the person I'd expect to make animations of the kind
I'm thinking of. Which also seems to be what you say yourself. That doesn't
mean though that others won't have any use of the feature in question.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
Rune's World:    http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated June 26)
POV-Ray Users:   http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/povrayusers/
POV-Ray Webring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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