nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
> What that means is that you are comfortable on Windows because you
> previously took your time to learn Windows tools and is now blaming
> Linux because you chose not to take your time to learn Linux tools.

No. What it means is that I am comfortable on Windows because I previously took
my time to learn Windows tools (as you correctly observe) and choose not to
take my time to learn Linux tools (as you correctly observe as well).

No blaming Linux. Just expressing my disgruntlement about the differences
between the two worlds, which make it difficult for me to "port" much of my
experience with one to the other (especially given the effort constraints I
have set myself).


BTW, why does everybody seem to take a "I hate Linux" for "Linux is crap"? I
don't think it is. I just hate it, that's all. And actually I just hate it when
I don't know how to make it do what I want it to do... and yes, I *am*
helplessly impatient with it in such situations.

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On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 15:13:22 -0500, clipka wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> > I mean, it's not like they have any "quick start" sections (or I'm
>> > R'ing T wrong FM's...)
>>
>> I think Nem's point is that you had to learn debugging techniques on
>> Windows at some point and you probably read some documentation on how
>> to do it there.
> 
> .... and that's where a quick-start doc would come in handy: E.g. how to
> set those freakin' compiler flags to get the most out of the debugger.

Something like:

http://irl.eecs.umich.edu/jamin/pointers/gdbQS.html

Perhaps? ;-)

> .... or better yet, how to set those freakin' debugging-related flags of
> the POV ../configure script, so that it automatically sets all compiler
> flags I need (though I fear I won't find such information in the
> compiler docs) ;)

Most ./configure scripts accept a --help switch to tell you what the 
options are. :-)

> BTW, I think one of the biggest advancements in debugging is the ability
> to single-step through code lines - so unless Borland did something
> different there than any modern IDE I know of, then if Linux debuggers
> don't have it I'll definitely miss it (if I ever let myself talk into
> Linux debugging in the first place, that is).

You can single step into functions or over functions in gdb - IIRC, it's 
something like "t" and "s".

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Something like:
>
> http://irl.eecs.umich.edu/jamin/pointers/gdbQS.html
>
> Perhaps? ;-)

Yeah, something like that... with working links, preferably :)

> > .... or better yet, how to set those freakin' debugging-related flags of
> > the POV ../configure script, so that it automatically sets all compiler
> > flags I need (though I fear I won't find such information in the
> > compiler docs) ;)
>
> Most ./configure scripts accept a --help switch to tell you what the
> options are. :-)

Sure. I prefer the "INSTALL" documentation of POV though (I'm not so fond of any
online help that I have to invoke again and again because it keeps scrolling out
of view in my terminal window). Still it doesn't say what *exactly* those
compiler flags do; for example, can *you* tell me what *exactly* the
"--enable-debug" flag does? I give you a hint: It does *not* seem to enable
line number information in the executable.

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On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 22:25:50 -0500, clipka wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Something like:
>>
>> http://irl.eecs.umich.edu/jamin/pointers/gdbQS.html
>>
>> Perhaps? ;-)
> 
> Yeah, something like that... with working links, preferably :)

Well, that was one of the hits on Google that I found. ;-)

>> > .... or better yet, how to set those freakin' debugging-related flags
>> > of the POV ../configure script, so that it automatically sets all
>> > compiler flags I need (though I fear I won't find such information in
>> > the compiler docs) ;)
>>
>> Most ./configure scripts accept a --help switch to tell you what the
>> options are. :-)
> 
> Sure. I prefer the "INSTALL" documentation of POV though (I'm not so
> fond of any online help that I have to invoke again and again because it
> keeps scrolling out of view in my terminal window). Still it doesn't say
> what *exactly* those compiler flags do; for example, can *you* tell me
> what *exactly* the "--enable-debug" flag does? I give you a hint: It
> does *not* seem to enable line number information in the executable.

Pipe the output through less.  :-)

Then there's "man gcc" if you want to know what the compiler flags do.

I don't have the povray source on my system at the moment, so no, I 
probably couldn't tell you what --enable-debug does in povray's configure 
script.

You could always run the configure script with and without the switch and 
diff the makefiles....That's how I'd do it rather than trying to sort 
through bash scripting (since that's not my strong suit).

Jim

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clipka wrote:
> BTW, why does everybody seem to take a "I hate Linux" for "Linux is crap"?

I don't know, but I just hate you.

kidding, I truly have you in high regard for your kind rework of pov's 
radiosity. ;)

Don't be so impatient.  Any more tip, just call...

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> > Sure. I prefer the "INSTALL" documentation of POV though (I'm not so
> > fond of any online help that I have to invoke again and again because it
> > keeps scrolling out of view in my terminal window). Still it doesn't say
> > what *exactly* those compiler flags do; for example, can *you* tell me
> > what *exactly* the "--enable-debug" flag does? I give you a hint: It
> > does *not* seem to enable line number information in the executable.
>
> Pipe the output through less.  :-)

You didn't get my point: I'm more into hypertext online helps in a dedicated
window, not something that goes on in a standard terminal window.

Well, maybe Linux people can't understand why anybody would have such
preferences, but... well, there *is* something intuitive about having different
things look different on the desktop...

> I don't have the povray source on my system at the moment, so no, I
> probably couldn't tell you what --enable-debug does in povray's configure
> script.
>
> You could always run the configure script with and without the switch and
> diff the makefiles....That's how I'd do it rather than trying to sort
> through bash scripting (since that's not my strong suit).

And here you got it again what my whole lamenting is about: Finding out how to
get line numbers out of a core dump or valgrind run seems to boil down to a
detective's job, and I don't have the time nor patience to do it.

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nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
> > BTW, why does everybody seem to take a "I hate Linux" for "Linux is crap"?
>
> I don't know, but I just hate you.

You're welcome - as long as you're not saying that I'm crap :P


> Don't be so impatient.  Any more tip, just call...

Yeah - just tell me what freakin' compiler settings *should* get me those
freakin' line numbers in those freakin' coredumps, and I might freakin' get
ahead somehow to find out how to ./configure POV for that... as of now, nobody
seems to know those Linux compilers well enough to boldly make a statement that
options X and Y will give me what I want. All people come up with is "go look
for yourself, it's sooooooo easy..."

Hey, come on guys, here's something where YOU can help make POV radiosity
better: Invest a few minutes to help a Windows-spoilt developer along on a
Linux machine...

...... oh, by the way: Settings for Intel compiler preferred. To my experience it
does a better job at optimization, so that's the one I'm normally using for
POV. Though I (generally) know how to ./configure POV to compile with gcc, too.


So anyone want those sporadic crashes of Linux POV gotten rid of before they
wind up in some beta? Here's the deal: Somebody help me with that, and I'll give
it a try. Or nobody helps me, and I'll leave that job to someone else more
familiar with Linux development. Both fine with me, though I'd prefer to know
that the betas will be "clean" in this respect.

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On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:56:24 -0500, clipka wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> > Sure. I prefer the "INSTALL" documentation of POV though (I'm not so
>> > fond of any online help that I have to invoke again and again because
>> > it keeps scrolling out of view in my terminal window). Still it
>> > doesn't say what *exactly* those compiler flags do; for example, can
>> > *you* tell me what *exactly* the "--enable-debug" flag does? I give
>> > you a hint: It does *not* seem to enable line number information in
>> > the executable.
>>
>> Pipe the output through less.  :-)
> 
> You didn't get my point: I'm more into hypertext online helps in a
> dedicated window, not something that goes on in a standard terminal
> window.
> 
> Well, maybe Linux people can't understand why anybody would have such
> preferences, but... well, there *is* something intuitive about having
> different things look different on the desktop...

No, I understand perfectly.  For a dedicated window, you can always open 
up an extra terminal window as well - there are options.  Or if you 
really want to look at the help in an editor/web page/whatever, open the 
configure script up in that and go to the part of the page that shows the 
help.

>> I don't have the povray source on my system at the moment, so no, I
>> probably couldn't tell you what --enable-debug does in povray's
>> configure script.
>>
>> You could always run the configure script with and without the switch
>> and diff the makefiles....That's how I'd do it rather than trying to
>> sort through bash scripting (since that's not my strong suit).
> 
> And here you got it again what my whole lamenting is about: Finding out
> how to get line numbers out of a core dump or valgrind run seems to boil
> down to a detective's job, and I don't have the time nor patience to do
> it.

What you're lamenting about is that Linux isn't Windows.  Surprise! ;-)

Jim

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On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:17:59 -0500, clipka wrote:

> Yeah - just tell me what freakin' compiler settings *should* get me
> those freakin' line numbers in those freakin' coredumps, and I might
> freakin' get ahead somehow to find out how to ./configure POV for
> that... as of now, nobody seems to know those Linux compilers well
> enough to boldly make a statement that options X and Y will give me what
> I want. All people come up with is "go look for yourself, it's sooooooo
> easy..."

Well, it's not the sort of thing I do on a daily basis, so if I have to 
google it, then it makes sense to say "the info's out there".  We've been 
down this road before.  Like Nem said, I appreciate the work you're doing 
on the radiosity code and think it's great...

So to help out, I've done the googling.

-g enables line numbers (not as a parameter to the configure script, as a 
parameter to the gcc compiler).  I've just confirmed this with a simple 
"hello world" program:

main () at hello.c:6
6		puts("Hello World");
(gdb) 

This break point is at line 6.

> Hey, come on guys, here's something where YOU can help make POV
> radiosity better: Invest a few minutes to help a Windows-spoilt
> developer along on a Linux machine...
> 
> ...... oh, by the way: Settings for Intel compiler preferred. To my
> experience it does a better job at optimization, so that's the one I'm
> normally using for POV. Though I (generally) know how to ./configure POV
> to compile with gcc, too.

I have no idea about Intel's compiler; don't have it installed, never 
used it before.

> So anyone want those sporadic crashes of Linux POV gotten rid of before
> they wind up in some beta? Here's the deal: Somebody help me with that,
> and I'll give it a try. Or nobody helps me, and I'll leave that job to
> someone else more familiar with Linux development. Both fine with me,
> though I'd prefer to know that the betas will be "clean" in this
> respect.

Are you loading up a core file from a crash in gdb?  Or are you 
duplicating the crash by running povray under gdb?

Jim

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Sorry, I didn't turned on my PC last night, but I'll try to core dump 
something today once I get home, in about 7 hours.  I'll help you, 
spoiled Windows child.  :)

clipka escreveu:
> nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
>>> BTW, why does everybody seem to take a "I hate Linux" for "Linux is crap"?
>> I don't know, but I just hate you.
> 
> You're welcome - as long as you're not saying that I'm crap :P
> 
> 
>> Don't be so impatient.  Any more tip, just call...
> 
> Yeah - just tell me what freakin' compiler settings *should* get me those
> freakin' line numbers in those freakin' coredumps, and I might freakin' get
> ahead somehow to find out how to ./configure POV for that... as of now, nobody
> seems to know those Linux compilers well enough to boldly make a statement that
> options X and Y will give me what I want. All people come up with is "go look
> for yourself, it's sooooooo easy..."
> 
> Hey, come on guys, here's something where YOU can help make POV radiosity
> better: Invest a few minutes to help a Windows-spoilt developer along on a
> Linux machine...
> 
> ...... oh, by the way: Settings for Intel compiler preferred. To my experience it
> does a better job at optimization, so that's the one I'm normally using for
> POV. Though I (generally) know how to ./configure POV to compile with gcc, too.
> 
> 
> So anyone want those sporadic crashes of Linux POV gotten rid of before they
> wind up in some beta? Here's the deal: Somebody help me with that, and I'll give
> it a try. Or nobody helps me, and I'll leave that job to someone else more
> familiar with Linux development. Both fine with me, though I'd prefer to know
> that the betas will be "clean" in this respect.
> 
> 
>

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