Yes, I have Blender installed and I'm trying to figure out how to work it.

No, I think I'm definitely going to have to read the manual from cover 
to cover. The program is just far too unconventional to learn any other 
way. Nothing works in remotely the way you'd expect. All the commands 
are hidden away and can only be accessed by pressing the secret keyboard 
shortcuts. The only way you can find things is if you already know where 
they are. There's no way you can learn this program just by playing with it.

So far, I've figured out how to move the view around, set up several 
simultaneous views, how to get into edit mode, and how to move stuff 
around. I haven't yet managed to figure out how to remove existing 
geometry. (For example, deleting an edge makes every face that touches 
it dissappear, rather than merging them like you'd expect.) I also have 
no clue what the billions of cryptically-named buttons and displays do - 
but hey, I probably don't need them yet anyway...

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On 12/17/09 09:34, Invisible wrote:
> No, I think I'm definitely going to have to read the manual from cover
> to cover. The program is just far too unconventional to learn any other
> way. Nothing works in remotely the way you'd expect. All the commands
> are hidden away and can only be accessed by pressing the secret keyboard
> shortcuts. The only way you can find things is if you already know where
> they are. There's no way you can learn this program just by playing with
> it.

	I'd suspect quite the opposite. I've heard the only way to learn is 
total immersion - via numerous tutorials. Then you keep working on 
Blender building whatever you wanted, and don't ever take a 2 week break.<G>

	Reading isn't going to make the keybindings/interface stick. Using them 
a lot (tutorials) will.

-- 
The next war will determine not what is right, but what is left.

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>> There's no way you can learn this program just by playing with it.
> 
>     I'd suspect quite the opposite. I've heard the only way to learn is 
> total immersion - via numerous tutorials. Then you keep working on 
> Blender building whatever you wanted, and don't ever take a 2 week 
> break.<G>
> 
>     Reading isn't going to make the keybindings/interface stick. Using 
> them a lot (tutorials) will.

I think knowing the logic behind the interface (assuming there *is* 
some) will probably help a lot. But sure, if you want to become _expert_ 
you're going to need to practise a lot. Currently I just can't make it 
to *anything* interesting, because the UI is getting in the way too much.

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Invisible wrote:
> All the commands 
> are hidden away and can only be accessed by pressing the secret keyboard 
> shortcuts. 

This is not quite true. What *is* true is that you have a whole bunch of 
buttons that reveal menus full of other commands, and getting to an 
operation without keyboard shortcuts takes forever.

But I'm pretty sure most of the modeling stuff at least is all in menus down 
at the bottom of each frame.

But yeah, you have to use it, and when you stop it goes away again, because 
there's no mnemonic way of using it.  (Unlike wordstar, whose keyboard 
commands I still remember 30 years after I stopped using it.)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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Invisible escreveu:
> Yes, I have Blender installed and I'm trying to figure out how to work it.

Hope the list is a good start.  And yes, most of it I learned myself by 
just trying out keys myself.  Oh, the wonders that curiosity makes...

remember:  ctrL+x is your friend, not enemy.  That way, you can learn by 
messing up real bad.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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Darren New escreveu:
> Invisible wrote:
>> All the commands are hidden away and can only be accessed by pressing 
>> the secret keyboard shortcuts. 
> 
> This is not quite true. What *is* true is that you have a whole bunch of 
> buttons that reveal menus full of other commands, and getting to an 
> operation without keyboard shortcuts takes forever.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure most of the modeling stuff at least is all in menus 
> down at the bottom of each frame.
> 
> But yeah, you have to use it, and when you stop it goes away again, 
> because there's no mnemonic way of using it.  (Unlike wordstar, whose 
> keyboard commands I still remember 30 years after I stopped using it.)

I take it you just used wordstar far more than Blender.

ctrl+e = Edge tools menu
u = texture Unwrap
x,y,z = self evident axis
s = scale
r = rotate
g = grab
e = extrude
h, shift+h, alt+h = hide operations

and so on.  I think it's pretty logical.  What is ilogical is expecting 
someone not used to visual 3D modelling knowing what extrude or unwrap 
means...

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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>> All the commands are hidden away and can only be accessed by pressing 
>> the secret keyboard shortcuts. 
> 
> This is not quite true. What *is* true is that you have a whole bunch of 
> buttons that reveal menus full of other commands, and getting to an 
> operation without keyboard shortcuts takes forever.

Well no, I mean for example: If you press [space], a whole bunch of 
stuff appears. I can't immediately see any other way of getting at any 
of those commands.

Now, if you didn't know that pressing [space] makes that stuff appear 
(and why would you?), you're going to have a hard time finding any of 
those commands. And it seems every page I read, I discover more secret 
key combinations that pop up new menus...

There's nothing *wrong* with keyboard shortcuts, but it does make the 
learning curve rather steep.

> But yeah, you have to use it, and when you stop it goes away again, 
> because there's no mnemonic way of using it.  (Unlike wordstar, whose 
> keyboard commands I still remember 30 years after I stopped using it.)

Currently my main problem is with figuring out the general principles 
the UI works under. Stuff like... clicking a menu item makes the menu 
open, but clicking it again doesn't make the menu shut. Wuh?

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nemesis wrote:

> I think it's pretty logical.  What is ilogical is expecting 
> someone not used to visual 3D modelling knowing what extrude or unwrap 
> means...

Well, I don't know. All the other 3D modellers have their quirks, but in 
all of them, once you've selected the right mode, clicking on a point 
and dragging it makes it move. (And also any edges and faces associated 
with it, obviously.) In Blender, this basic operation doesn't seem to 
work...

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nemesis wrote:
> I take it you just used wordstar far more than Blender.

No. They just laid out the keyboard very mnemonically.

> ctrl+e = Edge tools menu
> u = texture Unwrap
> x,y,z = self evident axis
> s = scale
> r = rotate
> g = grab

See, anyone else would have called that "translate".

> e = extrude
> h, shift+h, alt+h = hide operations

Great. Which is which?  ;-)

> and so on.  I think it's pretty logical.  

Well, when you list *only* the logically named keys, sure. Granted, blender 
does a lot more than wordstar did, but that doesn't mean it's just as easy.

> What is ilogical is expecting 
> someone not used to visual 3D modelling knowing what extrude or unwrap 
> means...

Hey, don't get pissy at *me* - I'm not the one arguing its useless. I just 
said the UI is hard to learn and to remember, which I think you'll find most 
people agree with. In part because it *does* do so much.

I wish Wings3D let you set up keyboard shortcuts for more stuff, because 
that's easy to use but slow because you *have* to go thru the menus.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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Invisible escreveu:
> Well no, I mean for example: If you press [space], a whole bunch of 
> stuff appears. I can't immediately see any other way of getting at any 
> of those commands.

They are either in the add item in the top bar or in the select or 
object menu items in the bar immediately below the 3D view.

> Currently my main problem is with figuring out the general principles 
> the UI works under. Stuff like... clicking a menu item makes the menu 
> open, but clicking it again doesn't make the menu shut. Wuh?

left arrow keyboard button.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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