> My mother is a highly experienced engineer, and she earns quite a lot of 
> money.

She should be in a favourable position to move jobs then, plenty of 
professional older workers move companies, and don't believe all the hype 
about there being no jobs at the moment - monster sends me about 10-20 new 
jobs every day for quite a narrow area of engineering.

> We're not talking about one manager with a power complex. We're talking 
> about a systematic plan to save the company money by pushing people out 
> the door on the cheap.

A lot of companies have been doing that recently, she shouldn't feel it's 
anything personal against her.

> The company, of course, will claim that the people standing over my 
> mother, constantly watching her, constantly having a go at her, is all 
> part of a "constructive program of continuous employee training and 
> development" and that they're not bullying her at all. I don't know - if 
> you can see that an employee is stressed out, would you spend 20 minutes 
> screaming at them at the top of your voice? Does that sound constructive 
> to you?

No, it sounds like she should make a complaint.  At the very least she 
should be recording all such incidents.

> I don't really know what the right course of action here is. But certainly 
> this kind of behaviour is unacceptable, and should not be legal.

There are plenty of avenues to take when making complaints.  I would do it 
internally first, if it's a large company it will definitely have an 
internal procedure which should probably follow first.  If that bears no 
fruit then there are plenty of external options, like tribunals and even 
going to court.

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>> My mother is a highly experienced engineer, and she earns quite a lot 
>> of money.
> 
> She should be in a favourable position to move jobs then, plenty of 
> professional older workers move companies, and don't believe all the 
> hype about there being no jobs at the moment - monster sends me about 
> 10-20 new jobs every day for quite a narrow area of engineering.

Ah, but that's the great thing about monopolies, isn't it? Your skills 
are only relevant to the company that holds the monopoly.

Besides, who's going to hire an old fat women approaching retirement age?

>> We're 
>> talking about a systematic plan to save the company money by pushing 
>> people out the door on the cheap.
> 
> A lot of companies have been doing that recently, she shouldn't feel 
> it's anything personal against her.

You and I know it isn't personal. When you haven't slept for several 
months consecutively, it feels like the world itself is against you 
personally.

>> I don't know - 
>> if you can see that an employee is stressed out, would you spend 20 
>> minutes screaming at them at the top of your voice? Does that sound 
>> constructive to you?
> 
> No, it sounds like she should make a complaint.  At the very least she 
> should be recording all such incidents.

When the company itself has decided they want to get rid of you, is 
complaining to the company really going to get results?

Who do you complain about? It's not just one person, it's the whole system.

(I'm not sure whether she's already tried this route. I'd have to go 
find out.)

> There are plenty of avenues to take when making complaints.  I would do 
> it internally first, if it's a large company it will definitely have an 
> internal procedure which should probably follow first.  If that bears no 
> fruit then there are plenty of external options, like tribunals and even 
> going to court.

Oh, they definitely have an internal procedure. I don't know whether 
she's tried it yet. She's tried talking to the union, but they seem to 
be being almost as stroppy with her as the company itself. Not sure what 
else there is. But watching my mother degenerate into a living zombie, I 
find myself thinking somebody should be taking these people to court... 
It surely *can't* be legal to make somebody physically ill.

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> Ah, but that's the great thing about monopolies, isn't it? Your skills are 
> only relevant to the company that holds the monopoly.

Seems unlikely, she works for BT IIRC?  It's not like there aren't any other 
companies doing what BT do.

> Besides, who's going to hire an old fat women approaching retirement age?

As I said, I have seen lots of old professional people switch companies, 
I've even seen some take early retirement and then become consultants 
working for the company they left!  If she is really that close to 
retirement then has she considered just retiring now?  Is it really worth 
all the phyiscal and mental pain for having more money for a couple of 
years?  If she's spent a whole career as a highly experienced engineer she 
can't be that badly off.

> When the company itself has decided they want to get rid of you, is 
> complaining to the company really going to get results?

Yes, because usually the people handling the complaints are independent of 
the people making such decisions about getting rid of people.  A lot of 
companies employ 3rd party moderators to assist in such internal complain 
procedures, I'm not sure if that is law or not.

> Who do you complain about? It's not just one person, it's the whole 
> system.

Well if people are doing things like shouting at you for 20 minutes or 
sending threatening letters, then complain about them.  If it's not their 
fault (eg they were told to by their boss) then complain about them instead.

> Not sure what else there is.

http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/

Or go to court.

But be sure you know your rights and have proof of the employer acting 
illegally before you go down those route.  Having evidence of a failed 
internal complaint procedure will greatly help.

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>> Ah, but that's the great thing about monopolies, isn't it? Your skills 
>> are only relevant to the company that holds the monopoly.
> 
> Seems unlikely, she works for BT IIRC?  It's not like there aren't any 
> other companies doing what BT do.

Uh... yes it is?

>> Besides, who's going to hire an old fat women approaching retirement age?
> 
> As I said, I have seen lots of old professional people switch companies, 
> I've even seen some take early retirement and then become consultants 
> working for the company they left!

Heh. Sounds pretty impressive...

> If she is really that close to 
> retirement then has she considered just retiring now?  Is it really 
> worth all the phyiscal and mental pain for having more money for a 
> couple of years?

Trouble is, when she does eventually retire, she'll be financially 
destitute. By staying in work, she can put that off for a few more years.

> If she's spent a whole career as a highly experienced 
> engineer she can't be that badly off.

Actually, she's in an almost constant state of financial disaster than 
ranges from mild to severe depending on which month you ask.

> Well if people are doing things like shouting at you for 20 minutes or 
> sending threatening letters, then complain about them.  If it's not 
> their fault (eg they were told to by their boss) then complain about 
> them instead.

> http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/
> 
> Or go to court.
> 
> But be sure you know your rights and have proof of the employer acting 
> illegally before you go down those route.  Having evidence of a failed 
> internal complaint procedure will greatly help.

Trouble is, it's all going to boil down to "we say vs they say". It's 
not like you can *prove* that somebody shouted at you. (And it's lot 
like we have records of the last 2 years or so of abuse.)

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>> Seems unlikely, she works for BT IIRC?  It's not like there aren't any 
>> other companies doing what BT do.
>
> Uh... yes it is?

You don't have to tell me exactly which part of BT she works for, but it 
seems *really* unlikely that no other company needs those skills.

> Trouble is, when she does eventually retire, she'll be financially 
> destitute.

Doesn't she have a pension with her company?  Working almost your entire 
life as a professional usually gets you a pretty healthy pension.  I was 
lucky to get in on my company's pension scheme just before they closed it 
off (as did a lot of companies recently), so in theory if I work for 40 
years with them I will get a pension that is equal to 2/3 of my final 
salary, that sort of scheme seemed quite common up until recently.

>> My mother is a highly experienced engineer, and she earns quite a lot of 
>> money.
...
> Actually, she's in an almost constant state of financial disaster

The above two statements don't really add up.

> Trouble is, it's all going to boil down to "we say vs they say". It's not 
> like you can *prove* that somebody shouted at you.

You can prove threatening letters though, and you can at least show the log 
you've made of verbal attacks, plus some hard evidence that the internal 
complaints procedure didn't work.  If someone witnessed the unreasonable 
verbal attacks then say that too.

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>>> Seems unlikely, she works for BT IIRC?  It's not like there aren't 
>>> any other companies doing what BT do.
>>
>> Uh... yes it is?
> 
> You don't have to tell me exactly which part of BT she works for, but it 
> seems *really* unlikely that no other company needs those skills.

Last time I checked, BT ownes the entire telephone network. Nobody else 
is allowed to touch it.

>> Trouble is, when she does eventually retire, she'll be financially 
>> destitute.
> 
> Doesn't she have a pension with her company?

Sure. It's just not very big.

> Working almost your entire 
> life as a professional usually gets you a pretty healthy pension.

She's only worked for BT for about 15 years.

>>> My mother is a highly experienced engineer, and she earns quite a lot 
>>> of money.
> ...
>> Actually, she's in an almost constant state of financial disaster
> 
> The above two statements don't really add up.

I mean she earns a lot more than the other staff there. In absolute 
terms it's not a big amount though.

>> Trouble is, it's all going to boil down to "we say vs they say". It's 
>> not like you can *prove* that somebody shouted at you.
> 
> You can prove threatening letters though

All the letter says is "this is your final warning, if your performance 
statistics do not improve, you will be fired". Which is legal, 
technically. (The fact that the performance targets are impossible is 
another matter...)

> and you can at least show the log you've made of verbal attacks

Only if you log them. (It's a bit late to start now...)

> plus some hard evidence that the internal complaints procedure didn't work.

That could work.

> If someone witnessed the unreasonable verbal attacks then say that too.

You'd need to convince a witness to come forward.

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scott wrote:
> Well if people are doing things like shouting at you for 20 minutes or 
> sending threatening letters, then complain about them.

Maybe it's just me, but if someone at work actually raised their voice to me 
out of something other than momentary anger, I'd just laugh in their face 
and tell them to grow up.

Not to minimize your mom's feelings, but I just can't relate.

Feeling bad over someone being upset I reserve for people I care about. If 
your job is to make me miserable, it doesn't really bother me if you fail at 
it. A disappointing look from someone I respect is far worse than 20 minutes 
of "being called into the boss' office" by someone who's a hack. Especially 
if I'm a skilled worker and I know I haven't done poorly.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Invisible wrote:
> Last time I checked, BT ownes the entire telephone network. Nobody else 
> is allowed to touch it.

What sort of engineering does she do? Even in the days of the monopoly in 
the USA, the phone company still bought equipment from other companies and 
so on.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:

> Not to minimize your mom's feelings, but I just can't relate.
> 
> Feeling bad over someone being upset I reserve for people I care about. 
> If your job is to make me miserable, it doesn't really bother me if you 
> fail at it. A disappointing look from someone I respect is far worse 
> than 20 minutes of "being called into the boss' office" by someone who's 
> a hack. Especially if I'm a skilled worker and I know I haven't done 
> poorly.

How about "you will meet these impossible targets I've set you or I'll 
fire you and you'll have to go live on the street"? How does that strike 
you?

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>> Last time I checked, BT ownes the entire telephone network. Nobody 
>> else is allowed to touch it.
> 
> What sort of engineering does she do? Even in the days of the monopoly 
> in the USA, the phone company still bought equipment from other 
> companies and so on.

She spent about 10 years installing people's telephones, running 
telephone cables, diagnosing network faults, etc.

Now she just works in a call center where people ring her up to whine 
about their phone not working and demand that somebody come and fix it 
yesterday.

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