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> Well, let's think about this. The building could randomly implode
Buildings don't randomly implode, they follow the laws of physics. I would
imagine firefighters are quite skilled at knowing what to look for to decide
if a building is likely to collapse or not. Even as a non-firefighter I am
quite sure that if my cooker has been on fire for 5 minutes my house is not
going to fall down, but if I see a wooden barn has been alight for half an
hour I'm not going anywhere near it!
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> True. I've always though being some kind of doctor must be the worst
>>> job ever.
>>
>> But the benefits, knowing that you have helped others, saved lives and
>> made lives more bearable. Not to mention the money :)
>
> I don't know, man. One failure is like a billion too many...
>
So what part of Utopia do you come from?
>
>>> The look of hatred and anger in their loved one's eys. The lawsuits
>>> and charges of incompetence and negligence. The violence from enraged
>>> kin. It must be hell on Earth.
>>
>> I think that you overstate it ;)
>
> Like I say, if I knew that somebody had *died* because I didn't do
> everything I could - nah, if I vaguely *suspected* I didn't do
> everything I could - I don't think I could go on living in this world.
>
I would be upset too, I must admit.
> And the distraught relatives who will blame you whether it's your fault
> or not surely don't help either...
>
These are the things that you shouldn’t worry about because they will
only make making mistakes more likely.
>> Well my father was a fireman and I grew up in a fire station, from the
>> age of 3 to 22. The job can be dangerous but they are trained for it
>> so it is not as dangerous as you would think.
>
> Well, let's think about this. The building could randomly implode at any
> second. So by "training" do you mean "if it might implode, they just
> don't go in there"?
>
What Scott said. :)
>>> I guess compared to that, being screamed at for 8 hours by irate
>>> customers isn't do bad.
>>
>> That has its own stresses. I believe the average burnout rate in
>> customer service factories is about two years. Although I have worked
>> for companies (Coca Cola UK in MK for one) where people worked for years.
>
> I was thinking more of managemant consoltant or computer concultant or
> something, but sure...
>
Oh! You misspelt consultant twice in different ways in the same sentence ;)
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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>> I was thinking more of managemant consoltant or computer concultant or
>> something, but sure...
>>
> Oh! You misspelt consultant twice in different ways in the same sentence ;)
Stop judging me! STOP JUDGING ME!!
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1282
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Stephen wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> But consulting work does pay well; generally, it pays very well.
>>
>> Presumably because it's extremely high-stress work with no job security?
>>
>
>
> But at least we *know* that we don’t have job security ;)
> And it is not as stressful as knowing that people could die or be
> severely injured if you make a mistake.
You get used to that. At the beginning it might bother you a bit, but
especially after you've made a few correct calls, and saved lives as a
result, it starts getting easier.
It also makes it easier to prepare psychologically for the occasional
mistakes you WILL make, being just another working joe not unlike somebody
who does accounting, for example. Except your mistakes can cost lives.
--
Stefan Viljoen
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> ...or, maybe a fireman. Yeah, because that way, you have all of the
> above, *and* there's a totally real possibility that _you_ will die
> today as well. Or maybe just be horribly injured and maimed for life. If
> you die, your body will probably never even be found. That must be great.
Dude its REALLY not that bad!
The -best- feeling I have -ever- felt in my life was when I helped save
someone else's - it givens -meaning-. Real firemen don't sit around all day
torturing themselves with these kinds of thoughts. Sure, it CAN happen, but
man, offset it with a little child whose life -YOU- saved, who would be dead
if you weren't there and willing to risk your life...
ONE life saved makes all the times yours was risked, completely worthwhile.
> I guess compared to that, being screamed at for 8 hours by irate
> customers isn't do bad.
Probably not. But with ultimate failure (risking your own death to save
others) you also have the ultimate reward - saving someone's life.
I would not have traded the times I was in danger for anything in the world,
for I managed to do something universally right in every culture, religion
and society on Earth - I have helped save innocent life.
ANY risk and ANY possible loss is worth that.
--
Stefan Viljoen
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scott wrote:
>> Well, let's think about this. The building could randomly implode
>
> Buildings don't randomly implode, they follow the laws of physics. I
> would imagine firefighters are quite skilled at knowing what to look for
> to decide
> if a building is likely to collapse or not. Even as a non-firefighter I
> am quite sure that if my cooker has been on fire for 5 minutes my house is
> not going to fall down, but if I see a wooden barn has been alight for
> half an hour I'm not going anywhere near it!
Yep - the thing is that you learn to risk. I. e. your training includes
looking for certain signs, and comparing them with what the dispatcher told
you, along with simple common sense. The whole idea of surviving AND doing
the job on the fire ground is to risk from a position of knowledge. You need
to know how far you are LIKELY to be able to go and still survive and do
your job.
Remember also it is usually very military in the fire service - you act
pretty much like a soldier, doing what your lieutenant or battalion chief
tells you to do. And the same reaction is expected as well - instant
obedience to orders.
That's the thing - most firefighter fatalities are when some unknown factor
was present (like a homeowner storing propane in his garage, or an
unanticipated collapse of a trench wall, for example.)
I have seen thought, that in the fire service (at least here, in the past)
the military paradigm is largely adhered to, but a smart officer will always
listen (at least a bit) versus military officers who more commonly have the
"shut and do what I tell you" mentality.
--
Stefan Viljoen
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Stephen wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> True. I've always though being some kind of doctor must be the worst
>>>> job ever.
>>>
>>> But the benefits, knowing that you have helped others, saved lives and
>>> made lives more bearable. Not to mention the money :)
>>
>> I don't know, man. One failure is like a billion too many...
>>
>
> So what part of Utopia do you come from?
Exactly. Utopia = nowhere. I, and many people in the fire and rescue
services have, and do, make mistakes. You don't become some kind of robot
when you pull on bunker gear! You're still the same person with the same
faults and fears as any other person.
You WILL fail. Sooner or later. Somebody WILL die (they have on my watch)
and you will just have to deal with it. The trick is doing your best,
always, even at risk of your life, or loss of it. At least if you HAVE to
loose a patient or your own life, loose it after putting up the a hell of
fight and doing the best you could have done.
I had to face this when I lost some friends operationally in the fire
service. For months afterward I castigated myself, should I have done this,
said this, done that, warned them... eventually I realized the simple fact
was I had done my very, very best, and NOTHING I could have done more would
have saved them.
You just need to live with it, and accept it.
>>>> The look of hatred and anger in their loved one's eys. The lawsuits
>>>> and charges of incompetence and negligence. The violence from enraged
>>>> kin. It must be hell on Earth.
>>>
>>> I think that you overstate it ;)
Yes, you do. I've NEVER seen hatered on an "accessory" face (a loved one or
family member of someone who has just passed away in a fire or an accident)
- but I have seen pathetic gratitude, thanks, and respect. The insane with
grief husband or wife who assaults you to try and blame somebody, anybody
for their loss is mostly a device of fiction. In reality (at least during my
career) it never happened.
I once got the most wonderful letter from a mother after I handled the call
where we managed to rescue her 3 year old from certain death after he fell
into their pool and partially drowned. It means more than any money I can
ever earn, or any man's thanks for gratitude. THAT makes it worth it.
>> Like I say, if I knew that somebody had *died* because I didn't do
>> everything I could - nah, if I vaguely *suspected* I didn't do
>> everything I could - I don't think I could go on living in this world.
>>
>
> I would be upset too, I must admit.
You just need to get over it. I know the feeling, I've experienced it. Your
comrades, good training and discipline (doing what MUST be done, no matter
how hard, dangerous, or painful) and knowing that you did your absolute best
helps to assuage it.
>> And the distraught relatives who will blame you whether it's your fault
>> or not surely don't help either...
>>
>
> These are the things that you shouldn’t worry about because they will
> only make making mistakes more likely.
Precisely.
--
Stefan Viljoen
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clipka wrote:
> Stefan Viljoen schrieb:
>
>> That's the thing... what you might do is swamp a single F-22 with eight
>> bogies, or even twelve? Sure it could splash four, or even six, but two
>> might get through. The thing is, the Chinese for example, can -afford-
>> this loss rate, and its still a bonus to them if even one 1950's era
> Japan apparently went into WW2 with a similar mindset, only to find
> themselves running out of planes and pilots in the long run.
Ouch. Again you've torpedoed my whole rationale!
> If an encounter between 40 MiGs and 4 F-22s should end up with the F-22s
> running like rabbits and both parties getting away unharmed, while an
> encounter between 40 MiGs and 16 F-22s should end up with the F-22s
.
.
.
> ultimately suffer a shortage of skilled pilots (which was exactly what
> happened to Japan in WW2, up to the point where they devised a tactic
> that would allow them to teach their new pilots only how to survive long
> enough to reach their target).
Ok, I admit defeat here - you're right. I've forgotten that bit of
history...
>> Ok, I partially agree. But a factor in US thinking is always "morale at
>> home". I don't think the Chinese have this same respect for human life,
>
> You keep talking about China, and what you say is probably true for
> them. But do you /really/ think there will /ever/ be an
> all-conventional-forces-out conflict between the USA and China that
> wouldn't end up going nuclear?
No, I admit I cannot see any conflict with either China or Russia, NOT going
nuclear. No US president who does not want to be impeached, and no Chinese
politburo head will say "ok, they've beaten us fair and square". I agree
they WILL reach for the red button, and it will be the first side that loses
in a large conventional clash.
> And I'm pretty sure neither China nor the USA have any desire to risk
> that.
>
> Besides, I guess China is also profiting too much from export, and the
> USA too much from cheap Chinese labor, for any side to be too much
> interested in an outright war.
Good point.
--
Stefan Viljoen
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>>> Well, let's think about this. The building could randomly implode
>> Buildings don't randomly implode, they follow the laws of physics.
>
> Yep - the thing is that you learn to risk. I. e. your training includes
> looking for certain signs, and comparing them with what the dispatcher told
> you, along with simple common sense. The whole idea of surviving AND doing
> the job on the fire ground is to risk from a position of knowledge. You need
> to know how far you are LIKELY to be able to go and still survive and do
> your job.
>
> Remember also it is usually very military in the fire service - you act
> pretty much like a soldier, doing what your lieutenant or battalion chief
> tells you to do. And the same reaction is expected as well - instant
> obedience to orders.
>
> That's the thing - most firefighter fatalities are when some unknown factor
> was present (like a homeowner storing propane in his garage, or an
> unanticipated collapse of a trench wall, for example.)
>
> I have seen thought, that in the fire service (at least here, in the past)
> the military paradigm is largely adhered to, but a smart officer will always
> listen (at least a bit) versus military officers who more commonly have the
> "shut and do what I tell you" mentality.
...so "learning safety" means that if the building is about to explode,
they just don't go in there? [As I originally asserted.]
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Stefan Viljoen wrote:
> You WILL fail. Sooner or later. Somebody WILL die (they have on my watch)
> and you will just have to deal with it. The trick is doing your best,
> always, even at risk of your life, or loss of it. At least if you HAVE to
> loose a patient or your own life, loose it after putting up the a hell of
> fight and doing the best you could have done.
>
> I had to face this when I lost some friends operationally in the fire
> service. For months afterward I castigated myself, should I have done this,
> said this, done that, warned them... eventually I realized the simple fact
> was I had done my very, very best, and NOTHING I could have done more would
> have saved them.
Doesn't work.
No matter how hard you tried, there's always something you could have
tried harder, something you could have done different, if only you had
done X instead of Y, maybe they'd still be alive... No matter how much
you know, rationally, that there's nothing more you could have done, the
knowledge of "if I did X, they would still be alive" will taument you
for the rest of eternity...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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