Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Don't you have a "runas" command?
> 
> I'm guessing this wasn't available in Windows NT server when I wrote the 
> scripts. Nice to know this at least has been fixed.

"""
NT4 users should install and use the SU command from the NT Resource Kit 
instead.
"""

Another 3 seconds of googling.  You *do* have the resource kit for your OS, 
right?

> But I also discovered that most things you might want to 
> script cannot be scripted from DOS.

You *do* have the resource kit for your OS, right?

>>>>> or files being locked. 
>>>> Make a VSS snapshot. That's what it's for.
>>> You can't do that from a DOS script.
>>
>> Bzzzt. I even offered you my scripts to do it.
> 
> Let me guess: pixie dust?

You *do* have the resource kit for your OS, right?

http://blogs.msdn.com/adioltean/archive/2004/12/14/301868.aspx
That took about 8 seconds, because "VSS" means visual source safe, not 
virtual shadow service. I had to spell it out on the second google.

> No, just impossible from a mere DOS script. Of course, a compiled C 
> program can do it. (Let's face it, a compiled C program can do *anything*.)

Well, no, the number of things you can do from the command line without 
invoking an executable is fairly low in pretty much every operating system.

The point is that you don't have to write these programs. You just download 
them from Microsoft as part of the resource kit. You *do* have the resource 
kit for your OS, right?

>> Damn, dude, you can even do it from Tcl.
>> http://twapi.magicsplat.com/eventlog.html
>> That took about 3 seconds on google.
> 
> And how much do you want to bet it won't work with the standard Tcl 
> interpretter?

Why wouldn't it? That's the whole point of Tcl stubs. Indeed, it's likely to 
work with every version. Plus, TWAPI is well-maintained, which you would 
know were you to follow comp.lang.tcl.

>> Create them from the command line:
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315410
> 
> "Logevent.exe is included in the Windows 2000 Resource Kit."
> 
> In other words, I can't get it.

Why can't you get it?

You're on NT4?
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3E972E9A-E08A-49A2-9D3A-C0519479E85A&displaylang=en
5 seconds.

What's in there, you say?
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc751139.aspx
Admittedly, that took almost 20 seconds to find.

> a while back I discovered an M$ tool that allows you to run stuff as a 
> service, even though this is normally impossible. 

Yes, because there aren't any services on Windows. :-)

> I could spend a few weeks surfing the net, finding all the utilities I 
> need to make the job work, checking that they're all from reputable 
> sources, working out their little quirks, getting them all to work 
> together...

You should at least install the package of tools that MS gives away for 
system administrators to use. Or at least know of its existence and what's 
in it.

> ...or I could install the BackupExec Remote Agent for Windows and be 
> done with it. Whilst I actually kinda enjoy the challenge of trying to 
> make scripts work, I feel happier that our vital production systems are 
> using a professional backup solution, rather than some probably-broken 
> thing I cobbled together myself.

Sure. But what about the next problem, and the next problem, and the next?

And saying "it's impossible to back things up" and saying "I prefer a 
professional solution so I don't have to spend time building one" are two 
completely different things, you realize.

If every request from your boss is answered with "That's impossible", I'm 
not surprised you're not earning a living wage.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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>>> But consulting work does pay well; generally, it pays very well.
>>
>> Presumably because it's extremely high-stress work with no job security?
> 
> But at least we *know* that we don’t have job security ;)

Heh, well, these days I think probably everybody knows there is no job 
security...

> And it is not as stressful as knowing that people could die or be 
> severely injured if you make a mistake.

True. I've always though being some kind of doctor must be the worst job 
ever. Millions of people dead, their screams haunting your dreams. Every 
waking second you walk the surface of the Earth, you know that you could 
have saved them, if only you had tried harder. The look of hatred and 
anger in their loved one's eys. The lawsuits and charges of incompetence 
and negligence. The violence from enraged kin. It must be hell on Earth.

...or, maybe a fireman. Yeah, because that way, you have all of the 
above, *and* there's a totally real possibility that _you_ will die 
today as well. Or maybe just be horribly injured and maimed for life. If 
you die, your body will probably never even be found. That must be great.

I guess compared to that, being screamed at for 8 hours by irate 
customers isn't do bad.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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> You *do* have the resource kit for your OS, right?

No. I've tried multiple times to obtain it, but apparently it can't be 
done. (Or rather, not without coughing up large sums of money anyway...)

It always makes my heart sink when I find the tool I want, only to 
discover that it's in the resource kit and hence not available to me.

>>> Damn, dude, you can even do it from Tcl.
>>> http://twapi.magicsplat.com/eventlog.html
>>> That took about 3 seconds on google.
>>
>> And how much do you want to bet it won't work with the standard Tcl 
>> interpretter?
> 
> Why wouldn't it? That's the whole point of Tcl stubs.

What's a Tcl stub?

>>> Create them from the command line:
>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315410
>>
>> "Logevent.exe is included in the Windows 2000 Resource Kit."
>>
>> In other words, I can't get it.
> 
> Why can't you get it?
> 
> You're on NT4?
>
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3E972E9A-E08A-49A2-9D3A-C0519479E85A&displaylang=en

> 
> 5 seconds.

I am staggered. I spent 5 years trying to get my hands on that. How on 
earth did you manage it?!

>> a while back I discovered an M$ tool that allows you to run stuff as a 
>> service, even though this is normally impossible. 
> 
> Yes, because there aren't any services on Windows. :-)

I meant that usually only programs specially written to be run as a 
service can be run as a service. :-P

> And saying "it's impossible to back things up" and saying "I prefer a 
> professional solution so I don't have to spend time building one" are 
> two completely different things, you realize.

I believe what I actually said is that it's impossible to build a 
reliable backup system out of DOS scripts. Of course, if you install 
enough 3rd party tools maybe it is - hey, you could invoke BackupExec 
from a DOS script and then claim to have implemented a reliable backup 
solution as a DOS script. Right?

> If every request from your boss is answered with "That's impossible", 
> I'm not surprised you're not earning a living wage.

I didn't say "it's impossible", I said "it's impossible with X". 
Different thing.

(Also, my boss never, ever asks me things. He *tells* me things...)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> You *do* have the resource kit for your OS, right?
> 
> No. I've tried multiple times to obtain it, but apparently it can't be 
> done. (Or rather, not without coughing up large sums of money anyway...)

I just pointed you at the free download.

>> Why wouldn't it? That's the whole point of Tcl stubs.
> What's a Tcl stub?

It's like a DLL export table, only for Tcl. It's so new versions of the 
interpreter still work with old compiled extentions.

>> You're on NT4?
>>
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3E972E9A-E08A-49A2-9D3A-C0519479E85A&displaylang=en

>>
>> 5 seconds.
> 
> I am staggered. I spent 5 years trying to get my hands on that. How on 
> earth did you manage it?!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nt4+resource+kit+download


>> Yes, because there aren't any services on Windows. :-)

> I meant that usually only programs specially written to be run as a 
> service can be run as a service. :-P

Usually, yes. But all you really need is the service event loop.

There's even an extention that lets you run any Tcl code as a windows service.

>> If every request from your boss is answered with "That's impossible", 
>> I'm not surprised you're not earning a living wage.
> 
> I didn't say "it's impossible", I said "it's impossible with X". 
> Different thing.

You must admit, you often use the word "impossible" more broadly than is 
applicable. :-)

> (Also, my boss never, ever asks me things. He *tells* me things...)

Those can be requests.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Well, the replacement enclosure arrived a few hours ago and I am 
currently running a chkdisk on the drive to make sure it's fully 
operational.  The bit on the old enclosure I suspected was burned out 
was a nearly-clear bit of stuff on the new one vs. chocolate-looking, 
and the new enclosure works just fine.  As far as I can tell.

So that's good.

Definitely can't wait to get desktop so can back this stuff up.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

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>>> You *do* have the resource kit for your OS, right?
>>
>> No. I've tried multiple times to obtain it, but apparently it can't be 
>> done. (Or rather, not without coughing up large sums of money anyway...)
> 
> I just pointed you at the free download.

And I'm just astonished that after years of searching, you managed to 
find this in 10 seconds.

>>> Why wouldn't it? That's the whole point of Tcl stubs.
>> What's a Tcl stub?
> 
> It's like a DLL export table, only for Tcl. It's so new versions of the 
> interpreter still work with old compiled extentions.

Right. Last time I looked at Tcl extensions, I couldn't make any use of 
them because you have to recompile the interpretter to run them. Are you 
saying that's no longer the case?

>>> Yes, because there aren't any services on Windows. :-)
> 
>> I meant that usually only programs specially written to be run as a 
>> service can be run as a service. :-P
> 
> Usually, yes. But all you really need is the service event loop.

Mmm. The fun thing about srvany.exe is that stopping the service 
forcibly kills the wrapped program. But hey, what else can you do? ;-)

>> I didn't say "it's impossible", I said "it's impossible with X". 
>> Different thing.
> 
> You must admit, you often use the word "impossible" more broadly than is 
> applicable. :-)

Sure, whatever.

>> (Also, my boss never, ever asks me things. He *tells* me things...)
> 
> Those can be requests.

But usually they aren't.

"Hey Andrew, I've disabled roaming profiles. We don't need them."

That's not a request. That's not even "I think we _should_ do this". 
That's "I just _did_ this".

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> But consulting work does pay well; generally, it pays very well.
>>>
>>> Presumably because it's extremely high-stress work with no job security?
>>
>> But at least we *know* that we don’t have job security ;)
> 
> Heh, well, these days I think probably everybody knows there is no job 
> security...
> 

Then you don’t owe any loyalty to your employer.


>> And it is not as stressful as knowing that people could die or be 
>> severely injured if you make a mistake.
> 
> True. I've always though being some kind of doctor must be the worst job 
> ever. 

But the benefits, knowing that you have helped others, saved lives and 
made lives more bearable. Not to mention the money :)

>Millions of people dead, their screams haunting your dreams. Every 
> waking second you walk the surface of the Earth, you know that you could 
> have saved them, if only you had tried harder. 

That’s why doctors and nurses develop “graveside humour”. It distances 
you from the human suffering. Sometimes it goes too far, though.

>The look of hatred and 
> anger in their loved one's eys. The lawsuits and charges of incompetence 
> and negligence. The violence from enraged kin. It must be hell on Earth.
>

I think that you overstate it ;)

> ....or, maybe a fireman. Yeah, because that way, you have all of the 
> above, *and* there's a totally real possibility that _you_ will die 
> today as well. Or maybe just be horribly injured and maimed for life. If 
> you die, your body will probably never even be found. That must be great.
> 

Well my father was a fireman and I grew up in a fire station, from the 
age of 3 to 22. The job can be dangerous but they are trained for it so 
it is not as dangerous as you would think. I did a few fire fighting 
courses when I worked offshore; putting out hydrocarbon fires in burning 
buildings, rescuing people (dummies) in the smoke and heat while wearing 
breathing apparatus. Once you know what you are doing it’s not so 
dangerous. As for your body not being found, that seldom happens. My 
father told me that one of the worse things was the smell of burning 
meat. But if it is not you then it is not that bad :P

> I guess compared to that, being screamed at for 8 hours by irate 
> customers isn't do bad.
> 

That has its own stresses. I believe the average burnout rate in 
customer service factories is about two years. Although I have worked 
for companies (Coca Cola UK in MK for one) where people worked for years.
-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

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>> True. I've always though being some kind of doctor must be the worst 
>> job ever. 
> 
> But the benefits, knowing that you have helped others, saved lives and 
> made lives more bearable. Not to mention the money :)

I don't know, man. One failure is like a billion too many...

> That’s why doctors and nurses develop “graveside humour”. It distances 
> you from the human suffering. Sometimes it goes too far, though.

http://www.xkcd.com/431/

>> The look of hatred and anger in their loved one's eys. The lawsuits 
>> and charges of incompetence and negligence. The violence from enraged 
>> kin. It must be hell on Earth.
> 
> I think that you overstate it ;)

Like I say, if I knew that somebody had *died* because I didn't do 
everything I could - nah, if I vaguely *suspected* I didn't do 
everything I could - I don't think I could go on living in this world.

And the distraught relatives who will blame you whether it's your fault 
or not surely don't help either...

> Well my father was a fireman and I grew up in a fire station, from the 
> age of 3 to 22. The job can be dangerous but they are trained for it so 
> it is not as dangerous as you would think.

Well, let's think about this. The building could randomly implode at any 
second. So by "training" do you mean "if it might implode, they just 
don't go in there"?

>> I guess compared to that, being screamed at for 8 hours by irate 
>> customers isn't do bad.
> 
> That has its own stresses. I believe the average burnout rate in 
> customer service factories is about two years. Although I have worked 
> for companies (Coca Cola UK in MK for one) where people worked for years.

I was thinking more of managemant consoltant or computer concultant or 
something, but sure...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Right. Last time I looked at Tcl extensions, I couldn't make any use of 
> them because you have to recompile the interpretter to run them. Are you 
> saying that's no longer the case?

That hasn't been the case since 8.0 or 8.1 or some such. Years, anyway.

> Mmm. The fun thing about srvany.exe is that stopping the service 
> forcibly kills the wrapped program. But hey, what else can you do? ;-)

Basically, yes.

>>> (Also, my boss never, ever asks me things. He *tells* me things...)
>> Those can be requests.
> But usually they aren't.
> "Hey Andrew, I've disabled roaming profiles. We don't need them."

Oh, I see what you mean. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Stefan Viljoen schrieb:

> That's the thing... what you might do is swamp a single F-22 with eight 
> bogies, or even twelve? Sure it could splash four, or even six, but two 
> might get through. The thing is, the Chinese for example, can -afford- this 
> loss rate, and its still a bonus to them if even one 1950's era MIG-19 or 
> -21 can get one napalm canister onto US troops. The Chinese were famous for 
> this type of tactics in Korea for example, as concerns ground-fighting - an 
> unstoppable human wave, with complete disregard for the lives of their 
> soldiers. If you have thousands of aircraft (and an apparently constantly 
> improving corps of pilots), why not try this from the air as well?

Japan apparently went into WW2 with a similar mindset, only to find 
themselves running out of planes and pilots in the long run.

If an encounter between 40 MiGs and 4 F-22s should end up with the F-22s 
running like rabbits and both parties getting away unharmed, while an 
encounter between 40 MiGs and 16 F-22s should end up with the F-22s 
running like rabbits unharmed /after/ having downed two or three MiGs, 
then those are odds the fleet of MiGs will not be able to sustain 
forever. Even if they can replace the planes fast enough, they'll 
ultimately suffer a shortage of skilled pilots (which was exactly what 
happened to Japan in WW2, up to the point where they devised a tactic 
that would allow them to teach their new pilots only how to survive long 
enough to reach their target).

> Ok, I partially agree. But a factor in US thinking is always "morale at 
> home". I don't think the Chinese have this same respect for human life,

You keep talking about China, and what you say is probably true for 
them. But do you /really/ think there will /ever/ be an 
all-conventional-forces-out conflict between the USA and China that 
wouldn't end up going nuclear?

And I'm pretty sure neither China nor the USA have any desire to risk that.

Besides, I guess China is also profiting too much from export, and the 
USA too much from cheap Chinese labor, for any side to be too much 
interested in an outright war.

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