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Chambers wrote:
> How hard would it be to get a couple of pressure sensors, and wire them
> up to a MIDI plug so you could have your own?
Harder than you'd think.
A peddleboard needs to not break when an 80 Kg person stamps on it. This
is non-trivial.
Where the hell do you buy pressure sensors?
You realise that MIDI is a serial communications protocol, right? It's
not like you just connect each sensor to a different pin on the plug;
you need some fairly elaborate electronics in there.
> Then you could go to the pub and tell some random girl, "Hey, baby, you
> ever dated a guy who wired his own base?" :)
*facepalm*
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>> How hard would it be to get a couple of pressure sensors, and wire
>> them up to a MIDI plug so you could have your own?
>
> That's what I thought the moment I saw it. Or maybe simpler to buy a
> standard cheap MIDI keyboard to get all the electronics and rig up some
> nice wooden pedals to it.
I guess that's a possibility, assuming I can find one that isn't
touch-sensitive. (For some reason, as soon as you buy a stand-alone MIDI
controller everybody automatically thinks you want the finest
weighted-key action with touch sensitivity and polyphonic aftertouch...
Hence, keyboards that have MIDI are quite cheap, but MIDI keyboards are
surprisingly expensive.)
Assuming you find one that isn't touch-sensitive, so pressing a key just
closes a circuit, it should be possible to rig something up.
The next problem is going to be how to make it sturdy enough to not fall
apart. ;-)
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> I guess that's a possibility, assuming I can find one that isn't
> touch-sensitive.
Oh ok I didn't realise the pedals didn't need to be touch sensitive, even
simpler then!
> Assuming you find one that isn't touch-sensitive, so pressing a key just
> closes a circuit, it should be possible to rig something up.
Alternatively use another input method to a PC (you can get multiple digital
input to USB boards) and then generate the MIDI signals in software.
> The next problem is going to be how to make it sturdy enough to not fall
> apart. ;-)
The pedals are not going to be taking massive forces so you don't need to
worry about using bearings or anything fancy like that. I would just put a
hole through the pedal at the back and let it rotate on a bolt that is
secured to some base-plate. That way you can place each pedal at a
different angle. To provide the resistance just glue on a lump of stiff
rubber underneath each pedal and mount a micro-switch to trigger at the
correct position. Shouldn't take too much work.
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>> I guess that's a possibility, assuming I can find one that isn't
>> touch-sensitive.
>
> Oh ok I didn't realise the pedals didn't need to be touch sensitive,
> even simpler then!
I'm trying to simulate a pipe organ here. They're generally not
particularly touch sensitive. ;-)
[Although... the mechanical-action ones *are* very slightly touch
sensitive, which not a lot of people know.]
>> Assuming you find one that isn't touch-sensitive, so pressing a key
>> just closes a circuit, it should be possible to rig something up.
>
> Alternatively use another input method to a PC (you can get multiple
> digital input to USB boards) and then generate the MIDI signals in
> software.
I'm guessing generating MIDI signals in software is going to be intractable.
>> The next problem is going to be how to make it sturdy enough to not
>> fall apart. ;-)
>
> The pedals are not going to be taking massive forces so you don't need
> to worry about using bearings or anything fancy like that. I would just
> put a hole through the pedal at the back and let it rotate on a bolt
> that is secured to some base-plate. That way you can place each pedal
> at a different angle. To provide the resistance just glue on a lump of
> stiff rubber underneath each pedal and mount a micro-switch to trigger
> at the correct position. Shouldn't take too much work.
For one thing, it's going to take some big chunks of solid wood, and a
big iron bolt. Given how ludicrously expensive actual wood is, I guess
it might not even come out any cheaper than just buying the one in the
shop...
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scott wrote:
>> How hard would it be to get a couple of pressure sensors, and wire
>> them up to a MIDI plug so you could have your own?
>
> That's what I thought the moment I saw it. Or maybe simpler to buy a
> standard cheap MIDI keyboard to get all the electronics and rig up some
> nice wooden pedals to it.
Ooo, hey! Maplin had a roll-up keyboard MIDI-controller thingy. Add some
mechanical linkage and some springs and you got a MIDI peddalboard. :-D
The only *minor* detail that remains is... building a peddalboard in the
first place. :-/
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> I'm guessing generating MIDI signals in software is going to be
> intractable.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms711640(VS.85).aspx
I believe also if you have access to DirectX on your system then DirectMusic
offers a higher level interface to the MIDI controller.
> For one thing, it's going to take some big chunks of solid wood, and a big
> iron bolt.
An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be levering up
cars with this thing!
> Given how ludicrously expensive actual wood is,
It's only expensive *after* someone has spent time shaping it and treating
it. Raw wood is pretty cheap, I would imagine that enough for a set of
pedals is not going to cost more than fifty quid. It's up to you how much
time you then want to spend shaping and treating it.
> I guess it might not even come out any cheaper than just buying the one in
> the shop...
Oh it will definitely come out at least an order of magnitude cheaper, but
of course it's going to take some time and skill on your part...
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>> I'm guessing generating MIDI signals in software is going to be
>> intractable.
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms711640(VS.85).aspx
>
> I believe also if you have access to DirectX on your system then
> DirectMusic offers a higher level interface to the MIDI controller.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd551276(VS.85).aspx
"Warning: This technology is deprecated as is all of DirectMusic."
Gee, thanks for telling us what the recommended alternative is. :-P
I wonder though... I've always thought of writing "fancy" Windows
programs as intractable, since it requires calling the Win32 API, and
very few useful programming languages can do this. However, I did
successfully write a Haskell library that talks to the Windows console
functions, and it worked fine. I wonder if it's really possible to write
a Haskell library that does something nontrivial like sending and
receiving MIDI messages?
>> For one thing, it's going to take some big chunks of solid wood, and a
>> big iron bolt.
>
> An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be levering
> up cars with this thing!
I'm guessing you can't buy that stuff at the local hardware store though.
>> Given how ludicrously expensive actual wood is,
>
> It's only expensive *after* someone has spent time shaping it and
> treating it. Raw wood is pretty cheap, I would imagine that enough for
> a set of pedals is not going to cost more than fifty quid. It's up to
> you how much time you then want to spend shaping and treating it.
Well, I don't have to worry about splinters. ;-) I suspect cutting it to
a precise shape isn't going to be easy though. Hmm, I'll have a think
about it.
>> I guess it might not even come out any cheaper than just buying the
>> one in the shop...
>
> Oh it will definitely come out at least an order of magnitude cheaper,
> but of course it's going to take some time and skill on your part...
Indeed.
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> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd551276(VS.85).aspx
>
> "Warning: This technology is deprecated as is all of DirectMusic."
>
> Gee, thanks for telling us what the recommended alternative is. :-P
Hehe yes true, it doesn't look like they do suggest an alternative for
communicating with MIDI hardware!
> I wonder though... I've always thought of writing "fancy" Windows programs
> as intractable, since it requires calling the Win32 API, and very few
> useful programming languages can do this. However, I did successfully
> write a Haskell library that talks to the Windows console functions, and
> it worked fine. I wonder if it's really possible to write a Haskell
> library that does something nontrivial like sending and receiving MIDI
> messages?
It should be no problem if you can call Windows API functions, the ones for
MIDI control are all still there.
>> An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be levering
>> up cars with this thing!
>
> I'm guessing you can't buy that stuff at the local hardware store though.
Of course you can and they're dead cheap, B&Q will have a good supply of M4
and M6 bolts (plus many other diameters) at all sorts of lengths and head
types. They do nuts and washers too.
> I suspect cutting it to a precise shape isn't going to be easy though.
If you're making a load of pedals then I would be tempted to first make a
jig so that you can cut each one to exactly the same dimensions. You can
finish them off with some sand paper or an electric sander (more expensive
but faster).
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>> "Warning: This technology is deprecated as is all of DirectMusic."
>>
>> Gee, thanks for telling us what the recommended alternative is. :-P
>
> Hehe yes true, it doesn't look like they do suggest an alternative for
> communicating with MIDI hardware!
That was the conclusion I came to also, yes.
Their main section on MIDI control still mentions the same function
names, so...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms712733(VS.85).aspx
>>> An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be
>>> levering up cars with this thing!
>>
>> I'm guessing you can't buy that stuff at the local hardware store though.
>
> Of course you can and they're dead cheap, B&Q will have a good supply of
> M4 and M6 bolts (plus many other diameters) at all sorts of lengths and
> head types. They do nuts and washers too.
B&Q sell nuts and bolts, but I doubt they sell large pieces of metal
such as random poles and rods.
>> I suspect cutting it to a precise shape isn't going to be easy though.
>
> If you're making a load of pedals then I would be tempted to first make
> a jig so that you can cut each one to exactly the same dimensions. You
> can finish them off with some sand paper or an electric sander (more
> expensive but faster).
My dad probably already has an electric sander or five.
I think the basic problem is that even if I do all this, it's never
going to be exactly like a real organ peddalboard. The whole point of
practicing is to get used to the feel of the real thing, so... I guess
I'll just stick to sneaking into the local church on saturdays. Much
cheaper. ;-)
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> B&Q sell nuts and bolts, but I doubt they sell large pieces of metal such
> as random poles and rods.
I suspect they do actually, but I wouldn't do it with those. I would get a
sheet of wood about 20 or 30mm thick to use as the base board. I would then
get a thin strip of aluminium (25x2 cross section would be perfect, I got
metre lengths of that from B&Q before), cut it into perhaps 150mm lengths
and bend it into a U shape. The bottom of the U I would bolt onto the base
board for each pedal, then fix an M4 bolt horizontally across the top of
each U with the pedal mounted on it so it's free to rotate.
> My dad probably already has an electric sander or five.
Job done then!
> I think the basic problem is that even if I do all this, it's never going
> to be exactly like a real organ peddalboard.
Isn't there any way you can replicate what the pedal is actually connected
to in a real one? It shouldn't be hard to think of something to replicate
the feeling.
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