Chambers wrote:

> How hard would it be to get a couple of pressure sensors, and wire them 
> up to a MIDI plug so you could have your own?

Harder than you'd think.

A peddleboard needs to not break when an 80 Kg person stamps on it. This 
is non-trivial.

Where the hell do you buy pressure sensors?

You realise that MIDI is a serial communications protocol, right? It's 
not like you just connect each sensor to a different pin on the plug; 
you need some fairly elaborate electronics in there.

> Then you could go to the pub and tell some random girl, "Hey, baby, you 
> ever dated a guy who wired his own base?" :)

*facepalm*

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>> How hard would it be to get a couple of pressure sensors, and wire 
>> them up to a MIDI plug so you could have your own?
> 
> That's what I thought the moment I saw it.  Or maybe simpler to buy a 
> standard cheap MIDI keyboard to get all the electronics and rig up some 
> nice wooden pedals to it.

I guess that's a possibility, assuming I can find one that isn't 
touch-sensitive. (For some reason, as soon as you buy a stand-alone MIDI 
controller everybody automatically thinks you want the finest 
weighted-key action with touch sensitivity and polyphonic aftertouch... 
Hence, keyboards that have MIDI are quite cheap, but MIDI keyboards are 
surprisingly expensive.)

Assuming you find one that isn't touch-sensitive, so pressing a key just 
closes a circuit, it should be possible to rig something up.

The next problem is going to be how to make it sturdy enough to not fall 
apart. ;-)

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> I guess that's a possibility, assuming I can find one that isn't 
> touch-sensitive.

Oh ok I didn't realise the pedals didn't need to be touch sensitive, even 
simpler then!

> Assuming you find one that isn't touch-sensitive, so pressing a key just 
> closes a circuit, it should be possible to rig something up.

Alternatively use another input method to a PC (you can get multiple digital 
input to USB boards) and then generate the MIDI signals in software.

> The next problem is going to be how to make it sturdy enough to not fall 
> apart. ;-)

The pedals are not going to be taking massive forces so you don't need to 
worry about using bearings or anything fancy like that.  I would just put a 
hole through the pedal at the back and let it rotate on a bolt that is 
secured to some base-plate.  That way you can place each pedal at a 
different angle.  To provide the resistance just glue on a lump of stiff 
rubber underneath each pedal and mount a micro-switch to trigger at the 
correct position.  Shouldn't take too much work.

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>> I guess that's a possibility, assuming I can find one that isn't 
>> touch-sensitive.
> 
> Oh ok I didn't realise the pedals didn't need to be touch sensitive, 
> even simpler then!

I'm trying to simulate a pipe organ here. They're generally not 
particularly touch sensitive. ;-)

[Although... the mechanical-action ones *are* very slightly touch 
sensitive, which not a lot of people know.]

>> Assuming you find one that isn't touch-sensitive, so pressing a key 
>> just closes a circuit, it should be possible to rig something up.
> 
> Alternatively use another input method to a PC (you can get multiple 
> digital input to USB boards) and then generate the MIDI signals in 
> software.

I'm guessing generating MIDI signals in software is going to be intractable.

>> The next problem is going to be how to make it sturdy enough to not 
>> fall apart. ;-)
> 
> The pedals are not going to be taking massive forces so you don't need 
> to worry about using bearings or anything fancy like that.  I would just 
> put a hole through the pedal at the back and let it rotate on a bolt 
> that is secured to some base-plate.  That way you can place each pedal 
> at a different angle.  To provide the resistance just glue on a lump of 
> stiff rubber underneath each pedal and mount a micro-switch to trigger 
> at the correct position.  Shouldn't take too much work.

For one thing, it's going to take some big chunks of solid wood, and a 
big iron bolt. Given how ludicrously expensive actual wood is, I guess 
it might not even come out any cheaper than just buying the one in the 
shop...

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scott wrote:
>> How hard would it be to get a couple of pressure sensors, and wire 
>> them up to a MIDI plug so you could have your own?
> 
> That's what I thought the moment I saw it.  Or maybe simpler to buy a 
> standard cheap MIDI keyboard to get all the electronics and rig up some 
> nice wooden pedals to it.

Ooo, hey! Maplin had a roll-up keyboard MIDI-controller thingy. Add some 
mechanical linkage and some springs and you got a MIDI peddalboard. :-D

The only *minor* detail that remains is... building a peddalboard in the 
first place. :-/

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> I'm guessing generating MIDI signals in software is going to be 
> intractable.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms711640(VS.85).aspx

I believe also if you have access to DirectX on your system then DirectMusic 
offers a higher level interface to the MIDI controller.

> For one thing, it's going to take some big chunks of solid wood, and a big 
> iron bolt.

An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be levering up 
cars with this thing!

> Given how ludicrously expensive actual wood is,

It's only expensive *after* someone has spent time shaping it and treating 
it.  Raw wood is pretty cheap, I would imagine that enough for a set of 
pedals is not going to cost more than fifty quid.  It's up to you how much 
time you then want to spend shaping and treating it.

> I guess it might not even come out any cheaper than just buying the one in 
> the shop...

Oh it will definitely come out at least an order of magnitude cheaper, but 
of course it's going to take some time and skill on your part...

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>> I'm guessing generating MIDI signals in software is going to be 
>> intractable.
> 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms711640(VS.85).aspx
> 
> I believe also if you have access to DirectX on your system then 
> DirectMusic offers a higher level interface to the MIDI controller.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd551276(VS.85).aspx

"Warning: This technology is deprecated as is all of DirectMusic."

Gee, thanks for telling us what the recommended alternative is. :-P

I wonder though... I've always thought of writing "fancy" Windows 
programs as intractable, since it requires calling the Win32 API, and 
very few useful programming languages can do this. However, I did 
successfully write a Haskell library that talks to the Windows console 
functions, and it worked fine. I wonder if it's really possible to write 
a Haskell library that does something nontrivial like sending and 
receiving MIDI messages?

>> For one thing, it's going to take some big chunks of solid wood, and a 
>> big iron bolt.
> 
> An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be levering 
> up cars with this thing!

I'm guessing you can't buy that stuff at the local hardware store though.

>> Given how ludicrously expensive actual wood is,
> 
> It's only expensive *after* someone has spent time shaping it and 
> treating it.  Raw wood is pretty cheap, I would imagine that enough for 
> a set of pedals is not going to cost more than fifty quid.  It's up to 
> you how much time you then want to spend shaping and treating it.

Well, I don't have to worry about splinters. ;-) I suspect cutting it to 
a precise shape isn't going to be easy though. Hmm, I'll have a think 
about it.

>> I guess it might not even come out any cheaper than just buying the 
>> one in the shop...
> 
> Oh it will definitely come out at least an order of magnitude cheaper, 
> but of course it's going to take some time and skill on your part...

Indeed.

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> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd551276(VS.85).aspx
>
> "Warning: This technology is deprecated as is all of DirectMusic."
>
> Gee, thanks for telling us what the recommended alternative is. :-P

Hehe yes true, it doesn't look like they do suggest an alternative for 
communicating with MIDI hardware!

> I wonder though... I've always thought of writing "fancy" Windows programs 
> as intractable, since it requires calling the Win32 API, and very few 
> useful programming languages can do this. However, I did successfully 
> write a Haskell library that talks to the Windows console functions, and 
> it worked fine. I wonder if it's really possible to write a Haskell 
> library that does something nontrivial like sending and receiving MIDI 
> messages?

It should be no problem if you can call Windows API functions, the ones for 
MIDI control are all still there.

>> An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be levering 
>> up cars with this thing!
>
> I'm guessing you can't buy that stuff at the local hardware store though.

Of course you can and they're dead cheap, B&Q will have a good supply of M4 
and M6 bolts (plus many other diameters) at all sorts of lengths and head 
types.  They do nuts and washers too.

> I suspect cutting it to a precise shape isn't going to be easy though.

If you're making a load of pedals then I would be tempted to first make a 
jig so that you can cut each one to exactly the same dimensions.  You can 
finish them off with some sand paper or an electric sander (more expensive 
but faster).

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>> "Warning: This technology is deprecated as is all of DirectMusic."
>>
>> Gee, thanks for telling us what the recommended alternative is. :-P
> 
> Hehe yes true, it doesn't look like they do suggest an alternative for 
> communicating with MIDI hardware!

That was the conclusion I came to also, yes.

Their main section on MIDI control still mentions the same function 
names, so...

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms712733(VS.85).aspx

>>> An M4 or M6 standard steel bolt will do, you're not going to be 
>>> levering up cars with this thing!
>>
>> I'm guessing you can't buy that stuff at the local hardware store though.
> 
> Of course you can and they're dead cheap, B&Q will have a good supply of 
> M4 and M6 bolts (plus many other diameters) at all sorts of lengths and 
> head types.  They do nuts and washers too.

B&Q sell nuts and bolts, but I doubt they sell large pieces of metal 
such as random poles and rods.

>> I suspect cutting it to a precise shape isn't going to be easy though.
> 
> If you're making a load of pedals then I would be tempted to first make 
> a jig so that you can cut each one to exactly the same dimensions.  You 
> can finish them off with some sand paper or an electric sander (more 
> expensive but faster).

My dad probably already has an electric sander or five.

I think the basic problem is that even if I do all this, it's never 
going to be exactly like a real organ peddalboard. The whole point of 
practicing is to get used to the feel of the real thing, so... I guess 
I'll just stick to sneaking into the local church on saturdays. Much 
cheaper. ;-)

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> B&Q sell nuts and bolts, but I doubt they sell large pieces of metal such 
> as random poles and rods.

I suspect they do actually, but I wouldn't do it with those.  I would get a 
sheet of wood about 20 or 30mm thick to use as the base board.  I would then 
get a thin strip of aluminium (25x2 cross section would be perfect, I got 
metre lengths of that from B&Q before), cut it into perhaps 150mm lengths 
and bend it into a U shape.  The bottom of the U I would bolt onto the base 
board for each pedal, then fix an M4 bolt horizontally across the top of 
each U with the pedal mounted on it so it's free to rotate.

> My dad probably already has an electric sander or five.

Job done then!

> I think the basic problem is that even if I do all this, it's never going 
> to be exactly like a real organ peddalboard.

Isn't there any way you can replicate what the pedal is actually connected 
to in a real one?  It shouldn't be hard to think of something to replicate 
the feeling.

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