On Fri, 01 May 2009 09:44:45 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> Well that's not entirely true. As you may have noticed, when something
>>> actually goes right for once, I suddenly become very optimistic.
>> 
>> You need to make it less "sudden" and more a way of being.
> 
> Easier said than done.

Nobody said life was easy - there are things one has to work at.

>>> It's just that for the most part, my life is a failure, so usually I'm
>>> pessimistic.
>> 
>> See, you need to stop with statements like "my life is a failure".
>> That's what we've been saying.
> 
> And what *I* have been saying is that when you repeatedly try to do
> things and are greeted only with failure, it makes it really, *really*
> hard to remain positive.

Oscar Wilde (I think) once said something like "experience is what you 
get when you don't get what you want".  You do seem to learn from the bad 
and you don't give up (as evidenced by your recent success in getting a 
phone number), so that's a good thing.  That's something to be positive 
about.

> Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I fail
> almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.

You *feel* you fail almost all the time.  That's not the same as actually 
failing all the time.  Count the success - as in this case - of getting 
the phone number, and having the courage to ask for it.  That's a win.  
The outcome, while clearly not positive - look at that as a secondary.  A 
step in the right direction is getting over the shy enough to talk to 
someone you only normally talk to in her professional capacity.

What it looks like from here is that you're looking at the entire 
sequence of events as a total epic failure.  It's not.  There are small 
successes in there and things you should be proud of having done.  So it 
didn't work out with this one - ultimately, so what?  The thing is you 
took a chance, and taking chances is what life is all about.  That's a 
win no matter how you slice it.

> (That's probably why I get so hyperactive on the rare occasions where
> something actually works...)

That's a perfectly reasonable reaction.  People get excited when things 
go their way or have a positive outcome.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

> Nobody said life was easy - there are things one has to work at.

As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for 
support and encouragement. I don't really have that.

>> Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I fail
>> almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.
> 
> You *feel* you fail almost all the time.  That's not the same as actually 
> failing all the time.  Count the success - as in this case - of getting 
> the phone number, and having the courage to ask for it.  That's a win.  

Sure. It is. But one win doesn't make up for a lifetime of failure.

(What I need to do is figure out the next step. In various areas. But if 
I could do that... I would have already taken the next step, several 
years ago.)

> What it looks like from here is that you're looking at the entire 
> sequence of events as a total epic failure.  It's not.  There are small 
> successes in there and things you should be proud of having done.  So it 
> didn't work out with this one - ultimately, so what?  The thing is you 
> took a chance, and taking chances is what life is all about.  That's a 
> win no matter how you slice it.

I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the 
hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me 
nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me 
nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's 
just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 01 May 2009 19:43:44 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>> Nobody said life was easy - there are things one has to work at.
> 
> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.

You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace, 
but we actually do exist.

>>> Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I
>>> fail almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.
>> 
>> You *feel* you fail almost all the time.  That's not the same as
>> actually failing all the time.  Count the success - as in this case -
>> of getting the phone number, and having the courage to ask for it. 
>> That's a win.
> 
> Sure. It is. But one win doesn't make up for a lifetime of failure.

It's not "one win".  It's one of several wins.  You just keep looking at 
the results and thinking that all the components that led up to that 
point must also be total failures.

> (What I need to do is figure out the next step. In various areas. But if
> I could do that... I would have already taken the next step, several
> years ago.)

You did the next step - to try to make contact.  You can't control the 
way people will react or the things going on in their lives that may 
change their minds about spending time with you.

>> What it looks like from here is that you're looking at the entire
>> sequence of events as a total epic failure.  It's not.  There are small
>> successes in there and things you should be proud of having done.  So
>> it didn't work out with this one - ultimately, so what?  The thing is
>> you took a chance, and taking chances is what life is all about. 
>> That's a win no matter how you slice it.
> 
> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.

Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.

You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you sure 
don't sound like you're failing there.

You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a 
failure to me.

I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about 
meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time.  Have you 
gotten together with them again?  Have you suggested maybe going for 
drinks and a visit?

As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks?  If I 
worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your 
office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how 
many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for.  Hell, I *did* 
that.  I told you about my intolerable job (the one I quit with nothing 
to go to and left myself unemployed *on my own* and *away from family and 
most of my friends* for three months) and what I did to try to find 
another job.  I was rejected for job after job - taking time off and 
instead of enjoying myself going on interviews to be told "no, you don't 
have the right certifications" or "you're overqualified for this 
position".

In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for 
months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with 
management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually 
found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen 
with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I was 
absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I nearly 
did at that).

Post a reply to this message

>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
> 
> You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace, 
> but we actually do exist.

I sometimes start to wonder....

>> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
>> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
>> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
> 
> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.

If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.

> You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you sure 
> don't sound like you're failing there.

As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms 
of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it 
doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with 
the people there to start with.

> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a 
> failure to me.

Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. (And 
let's face it, the whole point of spending months learning to play 
something is so that when you play it, people will do "wow, that's awsome!")

> I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about 
> meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time.  Have you 
> gotten together with them again?  Have you suggested maybe going for 
> drinks and a visit?

Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me 
at the minute.

> As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks?  If I 
> worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your 
> office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how 
> many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for.  Hell, I *did* 
> that.

Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of 
motivation. It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something 
when failure is 100% guaranteed. Nobody wants the skills I have. 
(Assuming I even have them and I'm not just kidding myself.) Jayne was 
telling me her husband hasn't had any work for months now - and he has 
actual talent. If the talented people can't get work, what chance does 
some loser like me stand?

Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable 
job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. I can 
apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until 
I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. Or I can sit and do nothing for 3 
hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the 
difference. Motivation, much?

> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for 
> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with 
> management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually 
> found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen 
> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I was 
> absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I nearly 
> did at that).

What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we 
already know that.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sat, 02 May 2009 09:56:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>> 
>> You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
>> but we actually do exist.
> 
> I sometimes start to wonder....

Because of course all the hours we spend writing to you don't mean 
anything?  I've said it before, I don't talk to people I don't like.  
From what I've read of yours, I like you.  Why do you find that so 
difficult to believe?

>>> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
>>> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
>>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
>>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
>>> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
>> 
>> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
> 
> If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.

And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside your 
own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made 
significant progress in the last year.

>> You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you
>> sure don't sound like you're failing there.
> 
> As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
> of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
> doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
> the people there to start with.

That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about 
interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly a 
failure.

>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a
>> failure to me.
> 
> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. 

Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important 
thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.

> (And
> let's face it, the whole point of spending months learning to play
> something is so that when you play it, people will do "wow, that's
> awsome!")

Having played the violin myself for 15+ years, I can tell you that's not 
the only point of learning to play a piece of music.  I won't say that 
that's not part of the motivation - performance is fun and nerve-wracking 
all at the same time.

But the last times I've had my violin out were for myself - it helped me 
relax and concentrate on the writing I was doing.

>> I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about
>> meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time.  Have
>> you gotten together with them again?  Have you suggested maybe going
>> for drinks and a visit?
> 
> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
> at the minute.

Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact 
you?  If you haven't said anything to them, they may be wondering what's 
wrong with THEM.

>> As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks?  If I
>> worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your
>> office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how
>> many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for.  Hell, I
>> *did* that.
> 
> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
> motivation. 

Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't 
really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest 
motivating factors for people.

> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
> when failure is 100% guaranteed. 

It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's for 
sure.  Especially in a contracting economy, jobs don't exactly fall out 
of the sky.

> Nobody wants the skills I have.

Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for 
your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.

> (Assuming I even have them and I'm not just kidding myself.) Jayne was
> telling me her husband hasn't had any work for months now - and he has
> actual talent. If the talented people can't get work, what chance does
> some loser like me stand?

Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not 
just give up.

> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. 

Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what you 
are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't even try.

How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a 
little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for someone 
with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement - that's one that 
unless you have the degree, you don't meet the requirements for.  But 
systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those are jobs you could do.  
But you give up before you even apply, and you need to STOP doing that.

> I can
> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
> I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. 

Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.  
Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET 
OUT.

> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
> difference. Motivation, much?

How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation?  How 
truly intolerable is it?

>> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
>> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
>> management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually
>> found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
>> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I
>> was absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I
>> nearly did at that).
> 
> What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
> already know that.

<sigh>  Are you intentionally missing my point?  It's called a parable - 
using an example to explain something.

My point is that I didn't give up and I found something good - and that's 
what you need to do.  Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got 
to put some effort into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you 
like, but if where you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should 
be enough motivation to keep up the search.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> (Perhaps excessively so.) It's just that for the most part, my life is a 
> failure, so usually I'm pessimistic.

FAIL

What is it to live a successful life?  Certainly not like Hollywood 
pictures it -- money, cars and beautiful women all over -- because by 
those standards everyone's life is pretty miserable by contrast... 
living a successful life should be about having a good time while you're 
here at Earth.  One day you'll simply vanish and all your concerns about 
social inadequacies will turn moot anyway. :)

BTW, if you're really desperate for a job change, how about actually 
*showing* it?  You send your curriculum every time and never receives a 
positive answer, so why not act _truly desperate_ with your possible 
employer?  Intimidate him with your despair and see how it goes. :D

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for 
> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.

Well, then you can go frak yourself!

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 02 May 2009 09:56:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
>>> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
>>> management), I kept looking.  I networked with people, and eventually
>>> found something.  But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
>>> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks".  I
>>> was absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I
>>> nearly did at that).
>> What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
>> already know that.
> 
> <sigh>  Are you intentionally missing my point?  It's called a parable - 
> using an example to explain something.

Forget it.  He enjoys feeling miserable.  Could start enjoying vodka as 
well, nice complement. ;)

Post a reply to this message

>>>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>>>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>>> You have that here.  Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
>>> but we actually do exist.
>> I sometimes start to wonder....
> 
> Because of course all the hours we spend writing to you don't mean 
> anything?  I've said it before, I don't talk to people I don't like.  
> From what I've read of yours, I like you.  Why do you find that so 
> difficult to believe?

I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen, 
it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other 
end.

>>> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
>> If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.
> 
> And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside your 
> own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made 
> significant progress in the last year.

You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any kind.

I spent months learning Widor's Toccata. But every time I put some 
effort in, I could *see* some progress - and that was really motivating. 
But in almost every other sphere of my life, expending unbounded amounts 
of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is 
*extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not 
doing any good?

>>> You go out and dance, don't you?  That's a social activity, and you
>>> sure don't sound like you're failing there.
>> As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
>> of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
>> doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
>> the people there to start with.
> 
> That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about 
> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly a 
> failure.

I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey, 
it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.

>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like a
>>> failure to me.
>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. 
> 
> Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important 
> thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.

It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll 
actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.

>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>> at the minute.
> 
> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact 
> you?

I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely 
turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe 
happening when I talk to them.

>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
>> motivation. 
> 
> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't 
> really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest 
> motivating factors for people.

I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger 
motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just 
seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all 
I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life, 
and there's nothing I can do about it.

If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job 
interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me 
a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses. 
And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even 
interviewed anybody else.)

>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
>> when failure is 100% guaranteed. 
> 
> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's for 
> sure.

I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally 
reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I 
wasted hours searching Monster and sending out applications. Heck, I 
even got my dad to drive me round the city center to find every 
employment agency in the place and give out copies of my CV.

You know where it got me? Nowhere. Hell, the last place I applied to, I 
spent hours carefully filling out their online application form, and 
they rejected me in less than 120 seconds. No *way* did a human being 
look at my application. Either there was never a vacancy in the first 
place, or it was rejected by a machine because some vital keyword was 
missing.

>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
> 
> Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for 
> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.

Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company 
that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does 
it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)

> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not 
> just give up.

I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so 
soul-destroying.

>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. 
> 
> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what you 
> are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't even try.

I don't think that's the main problem.

Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have 
titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and 
"development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.

Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job, 
the description says something like "you will drive half way across the 
country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you 
produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then 
imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave 
until the application is finished and working to the customer's 
satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.

And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of 
commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of 
them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part 
of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be 
useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody 
who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do 
C++ right now?

I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't 
find them...

It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.

> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a 
> little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for someone 
> with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement - that's one that 
> unless you have the degree, you don't meet the requirements for.  But 
> systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those are jobs you could do.  
> But you give up before you even apply, and you need to STOP doing that.

I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title 
that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second 
only to "tax man".

The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related 
to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a 
Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email 
XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either 
I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for 
the spot.

Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's 
feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible 
either.

It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and 
thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I 
just can't get traction!

>> I can
>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
>> I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. 
> 
> Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.  
> Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET 
> OUT.

And how many job adverts give you a phone number?

They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you 
for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence ensues.

>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>> difference. Motivation, much?
> 
> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation?  How 
> truly intolerable is it?

> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got 
> to put some effort into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you 
> like, but if where you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should 
> be enough motivation to keep up the search.

I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in. 
It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still 
didn't work.

I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and 
motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely 
nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all 
is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because, 
fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.

Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it 
another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine 
I'll have much success...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sun, 03 May 2009 11:49:12 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen,
> it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other
> end.

Well, believe it. :-)

>> And you are.  That is something that is difficult to see from inside
>> your own head.  Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made
>> significant progress in the last year.
> 
> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
> kind.

That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of 
reference.  Other people experience this as well.

> of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is
> *extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not
> doing any good?

Because it is doing good - just because you can't see it doesn't mean it 
isn't happening.

Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know 
that progress is being made.

>> That's not really the point.  You get a chance to learn about
>> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it.  That's hardly
>> a failure.
> 
> I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey,
> it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.

See?  That's what I'm talking about.

>>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely.  That sure doesn't sound like
>>>> a failure to me.
>>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much.
>> 
>> Who cares?  You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important
>> thing.  It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.
> 
> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.

And you've been at it how long?  Learning to play music takes years of 
practice.  You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started 
learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the 
field.   It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons 
that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.

I'm not saying that to demotivate you, though I recognise that might be 
one effect of what I'm saying.  Things like dancing and playing a musical 
instrument take years and years of dedicated study to do extremely well.  
That doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, though, or that people 
won't be impressed by what you've accomplished.  And for what it's worth, 
I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand 
when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two 
left feet).  So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of 
those things is something that I find impressive.

>>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>>> at the minute.
>> 
>> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact
>> you?
> 
> I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely
> turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe
> happening when I talk to them.

Well, if that's the case, then move on, it's not possible to be liked by 
everyone.  I know I'm positively hated by some people, and others find me 
awkward to be around.  It took years of looking to find a team to work 
with where I get along with nearly everyone.  And I just found out that 
one of my favourite people on the team was let go last week. :-(

>>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack
>>> of motivation.
>> 
>> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't
>> really suck that much.  Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest
>> motivating factors for people.
> 
> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
> and there's nothing I can do about it.

Just keep trying.  Like I said before, if you don't try to find something 
else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the 
rest of your life.  That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out 
there.

But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too - 
including looking in other parts of the country.  You drive almost 2.5 
hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about 
the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton 
Keynes, and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently 
afford a flat of your own (or finding one with a roommate at least to get 
started).  But if you find a job that's 100 miles away from where you 
are, make sure they know that you'll need relocation and a salary that 
affords you the ability to actually move in somewhere.

People all over the world get jobs that afford housing, and you've got to 
start somewhere.  Using myself as an example again (because I know my own 
story best), first job out of college I made about what you're making now 
(and that included a fair bit of overtime pay), and I lived in my 
parent's basement.  15 years ago, I attended a conference here in Utah 
(which is about 1500 miles away from where I grew up, and I knew only one 
person who actually lived here - and had only met him online).  He 
arranged an interview for me with a company he knew was looking for 
someone with my skills.  I went on the interview while here at the 
conference, and I got lucky enough to get what turned out to be the worst 
job in my life (this is the one I was forced to resign from, you know the 
story).  But it paid almost double what I was making back in Minneapolis, 
and made it possible for me to afford a place to live.

> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
> interviewed anybody else.)

That's the past.  Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.

>>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something when
>>> failure is 100% guaranteed.
>> 
>> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's
>> for sure.
> 
> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]

And what does it look like now?  I don't know if you posted a current 
version.

Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?  
Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort 
of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of 
professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.

I've been quite amazed at how many people I know are there and the 
possibilities are pretty interesting.  I didn't know, for example, that I 
know people who know people in the film industry.  If I were looking for 
a job today, I'd definitely start tehre.

>>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
>> 
>> Bullshit.  Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for
>> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.
> 
> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)

And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then 
you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.

Actually, your experience in using your dad's connection to the place you 
work now is one of the more common ways of finding a job - not 
necessarily your parents' connections (though that does work - my own dad 
got his job because of his dad's work with the company, and he spent 30+ 
years working there.  He got the job back just after World War II and 
retired in 1981).

There are people here who would no doubt add you to their professional 
networks.  While the link from you to me (for example) may not in and of 
itself yield a job, my connections to others may well do that.

>> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not
>> just give up.
> 
> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
> soul-destroying.

And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?  Like I said, you've 
got to keep trying.  Yes it can be disheartening.  The 3 months I spent 
unemployed, I ended up sleeping most of the time.  Trust me, I know what 
the experience is like.  I was depressed for most of that 3 months, and 
there's nothing that can make you feel more helpless than the prospect of 
losing your home and being unemployed.  You don't have a corner on that 
market.

>>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to.
>> 
>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>> even try.
> 
> I don't think that's the main problem.

That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.

> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.

Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those 
other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.

> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.

You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that 
customers never take "no" for an answer.  That's not the case.  You just 
think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many 
different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is 
the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.

It's not, and you need to recognise that.

> And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of
> commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of
> them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part
> of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
> C++ right now?

Many reasons.  The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money 
than the company can afford.  Posted job requirements (like the "demand" 
for 3 years experience) are flexible.  Part of what they count on is 
people who don't meet the "real" requirements not applying and taking 
exactly the attitude you are taking.  Sometimes they mean it, but 
sometimes they don't.  The only way to find out is to ask.  If you have 
something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.

A lot of jobs I've had "required" a degree, which I don't have.  But I 
got the job - because I had what they needed.

> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
> find them...
> 
> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.

Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this 
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?  I suppose at least then 
you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".

>> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a
>> little bit?  I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for
>> someone with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement -
>> that's one that unless you have the degree, you don't meet the
>> requirements for.  But systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those
>> are jobs you could do. But you give up before you even apply, and you
>> need to STOP doing that.
> 
> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
> only to "tax man".

There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every 
systems admin job is like that.  I worked at a place where that was the 
belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said 
"you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with 
relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can 
understand."

> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
> the spot.

You ever send more than one request?  Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm 
really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position 
still available?"

Prospective employers like that kind of initiative.  They tend to not go 
for people who ask once and then give up.

> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
> either.

Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here - 
people who have a lot more experience in getting into that than I (as I 
have basically none), so I'll let them comment on this if they like.

> It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and
> thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I
> just can't get traction!

Don't give up.  Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
crushing", remember, I've BTDT.  Eventually the hard work pays off.

>>> I can
>>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait
>>> until I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming.
>> 
>> Or you could be persistent and call them.  Express extreme interest.
>> Your current job sucks rocks, right?  Then do everything you can to GET
>> OUT.
> 
> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
> 
> They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you
> for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence
> ensues.

The Internet is a wonderful thing.  Employers love people who can do some 
research.  You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?  Find 
one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.  
Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but 
some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the 
position.

Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front 
door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who 
knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.

>>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>>> difference. Motivation, much?
>> 
>> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation? 
>> How truly intolerable is it?
> 
>> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got to put some effort
>> into it.  And sometimes it takes more time than you like, but if where
>> you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should be enough
>> motivation to keep up the search.
> 
> I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in.
> It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still
> didn't work.
> 
> I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and
> motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely
> nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all
> is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because,
> fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.

There you go again, discounting the people you write to up here.  You're 
not alone, you have the support of several people here.

And you are good enough.  To those companies who turned you down, they 
weren't good enough for you.  They didn't see your potential, and it's 
their loss.

> Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it
> another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine
> I'll have much success...

Well, like I said before, the pessimist can be pleasantly surprised, the 
optimist will be disappointed.

Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed.  Even if you 
don't, you gave it your all.

Jim

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