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On Sun, 03 May 2009 22:27:49 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> You are getting out more, spending time around people. You've taken up
>> dancing classes. You've started talking to people that are total
>> strangers.
>>
>> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped
>> into my head.
>
> Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing
> classes I did last year...
But even that was a step in the right direction.
> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and
read. If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll
come over and talk to you about it. Perhaps not. But if you're not out
there, they don't have the opportunity at all.
>>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>>> years now.
>>
>> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?
>
> I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been
> playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.
OK.
>>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about
>>> 75% of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>>> significantly better now.
>>
>> Nonsense. World class musicians improve their technique every day.
>
> I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get
> *significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a
> virtuoso organist or something.)
Um, nobody wakes up and becomes a virtuoso overnight.
>>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
>>
>> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool"
>> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.
>
> That's what it feels like.
Start with the assumption that people like it. Hey, you've posted the
audio and video files, that's more than I've done with the things I'm
good at. Don't stop posting them, and at the same time, don't be
discouraged just because people don't fall at your feet and praise your
musical genius.
>> I personally
>> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at
>> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it
>> sincerely.
>
> Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of
> lame.
Yeah, and especially in writing, it's hard to express enthusiasm (at
least it is for me) in a way that doesn't sound fake. That doesn't mean
I'm not impressed, it means I can't find the words to express my reaction.
>> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my
>> circumstances. If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.
>
> You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.
You can be. Just don't give up.
> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)
Well, I'm encouraging you. Don't give up. It's good that you recognise
that not trying guarantees failure. Trying sometimes also leads to
failure. But the one thing you get even out of failure is experience,
and experience is a positive thing if you learn from it. And by "learn
from it" I don't mean learn that it's futile, I mean learn about how
people react to things and then change your approach so people react more
favorably. It takes time, and it takes practice.
>> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop
>> looking.
>
> Makes sense...
Like I said, been there, done that. Was a period of my life where I was
quitting a job every 18 months or so while trying to find the right fit.
I am pretty happy where I am now, but that doesn't mean I'm not keeping
my eyes open for the next opportunity.
>>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if
>>> they'd actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
>>
>> How many times did you contact them?
>
> Only once. They're not deaf.
They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
to think your serious about wanting the job.
They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere
else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate,
maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him
instead because he's made our job easier."
>>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to
>>> *stop* doing.
>>
>> There are really two options: Find something closer to home, or move
>> your home. Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work
>> nearer to home. If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option
>> 2 has to be a consideration.
>
> I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen
> that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.
>
> (On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder
> for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)
I really liked the area I grew up in. I didn't like a lot of the people
I went to school with, but I did like the neighborhood. But I also
needed to get away from my parents, so I moved across the country.
I went to school in Florida, and now live in Utah. I grew up in
Minnesota. And I like going back there.
If you want a sane road system, move to Utah. The city is on a grid.
Doesn't get much more sane than that. The people are nice, the weather's
pretty moderate (gets bloody hot in the summers at times, though, "but
it's a dry heat". Yeah, but dry or not, it's still damned hot).
Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
>>
>> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably
>> not the best person to advise. However the words "To Let" seem to be
>> very popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.
>> You might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to
>> sell properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental
>> properties as well.
>
> I guess I'd have to investigate that one.
That's a good start. Now go and do it. :-)
>> Do you want the change? If so, how badly do you want it?
>
> Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra.
> Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick
> counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)
You didn't answer my question. Do you want the change? And if so, how
badly do you want it? What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that
it happens?
I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the
qualifications. But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately
are in control of what happens. It may not feel like it at times - as
I've said, I know that all too well. Getting asked to resign from a job
left me feeling completely out of control. I wallowed in self pity for a
few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about
it. And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts
(small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.
>>> Um... I don't know anybody?
>>
>> You'd be surprised. Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect
>> (hendersj at gmail dot com). Instant network. It's not the
>> connections one point away, it's the ones two and three points away
>> that are the most interesting. You can get people to introduce you to
>> those connections.
>
> Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...
Tomorrow's fine. I check my e-mail regularly.
>>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>>> programming in my entire life?
>>
>> Here's a news flash: Everyone has been at this point in their
>> professional life.
>
> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
> up.
Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
didn't know they had. I told you how I interviewed for a software
engineering position that I was seriously unqualified for. That was the
first time I applied for a job at Novell. The second time was a
consulting position (and like you, I didn't want to do the customer-
facing stuff at that time, and I wasn't overly impressed with the pay
scale, either). The third time, I interviewed for a teaching position -
I didn't think I'd get it because I had no instructional skills
whatsoever. The closest I'd done to teaching a classroom full of
students was presenting an hour-long session at a conference a few
times. And that's a LOT different than teaching a class with hands-on
labs.
But I got that position - in no small part because I did an interview
with the engineers who interviewed me in the first interview and they
remembered me and my skills from that first interview.
And they recommended me for the teaching job on that basis.
So while the first interview was - as you might say - pointless because I
was hideously underqualified, it played into a later interview that got
me a job that I really enjoyed.
Oh, and you know what - the teaching bit? They trained me on how to do
it, saying that my technical skills were top-notch and teaching is
something that I could learn.
>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
>
> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
taking a sysadmin job.
>>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but
>>> those jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
>>
>> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly
>> used term. Permute the search terms.
>
> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/
Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)
>>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>>
>>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>>> tree. :-P
>>
>> I deal with customers every single day. There are ones with reasonable
>> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.
>
> Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your
> year, doesn't it.
Surprisingly, no. I had one a few weeks ago who threatened to sue the
company if I didn't do what he wanted. What he wanted was completely
unreasonable. But he said the magic words "I'll get my lawyer involved
if I have to" so he became someone else's problem.
I had another who had a problem taking an exam he wasn't fully prepared
to take and he wanted us - rather, demanded - that we pay his travel
expenses. I told him no, and the "no" stuck. He ended up taking the
exam and he failed it.
Neither of these guys ruined my year. In fact I've had a pretty good
year so far.
By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable. Yet most
people who deal with customers don't have bad years and stay with it.
It's not because they're masochists, it's because they learn how to deal
with people who are being unreasonable in a constructive way.
>>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be
>>> horrifyingly abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer.
>>> I'm not a salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a
>>> management consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left
>>> alone to write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a
>>> job that utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch
>>> of skills I don't have?
>>
>> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing
>> position. I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
>>
>> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with
>> people effectively. And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it
>> - which was a real shock and surprise.
>>
>> Don't be afraid to try new things. You might just find that you're
>> good at it and that you like it. But you have to set aside your
>> preconceived notions.
>
> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
You deal with some pretty crappy people, then. They take advantage of
the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
Don't let them get away with it. Yes, it's hard to deal with if you
don't have the practice.
Point out to them that if it's so damned easy, they can do it
themselves. When they realise they can't, then you tell them that's why
you're there - because it's NOT easy and you happen to have the skills.
So if they want you to fix something for them that they are clearly not
capable of fixing on their own, they are going to have to show you a
little damned respect.
> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
> do, and they know when you've done it.
That's not a guarantee. I deal with technical people on a daily basis
and if they don't understand the technology being used, they're just as
clueless as a user asking for help with a Word macro. I've got one who
insists that because LDAP can't sort a search output on two keys, it's
completely unsuitable for any data storage whatsoever. His background is
in database technologies, and he doesn't understand the benefits of non-
SQL database solutions to store identities.
He's completely wrong in his assumptions, but won't be told any
differently, even by people with expertise in the technology he's
disparaging. At the same time, he talks about one of his coworkers like
the guy has no technical skills at all (I've known the guy he's talking
about for about 15 years and I know he's pretty sharp) and points out
every mistake the other guy makes.
Point is, technical people are not immune to demonstrating the dumb.
>> You are
>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
>
> I'm not sure I follow...
Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.
If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at
$1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.
You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.
So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer
$1000, and they agree.
If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
offer of $2000.
Does that make sense?
>> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be
>> the first to put a number on the table.
>
> Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his
> opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...
Sort of, yeah. Negotiation is a skill that can be learned.
>>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and
>>>> this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? I suppose at
>>>> least then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
>>
>> When did you last actively look?
>
> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
with them? Follow-up is important.
>>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with
>>> no support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some
>>> vital item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to
>>> thank you when you do get something right." No thanks...
>>
>> Again, your experience is based on one company.
>
> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.
It's not just one company, but it's also not all companies. The Daily
WTF doesn't represent all experiences. It only represents the ones that
make you go "WTF?" or the ones that are funny.
It wouldn't go to their title to report on an admin who's treated by the
staff like a normal human being, would it? It might make people ask "WTF
is up with TDWTF?", but that's about it.
>> I am telling you that
>> while there are places like that, not all places are.
>
> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but also
a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.
Most people don't take the opportunity to interview the prospective
employer. A lot of people, when asked if they have any questions about
the job of the company respond with some variation of "not at this time"
- but "this time" is the perfect opportunity. Ask to speak to some of
the people on the team you're becoming a part of, and ask them what daily
life is like, if there's anything that makes them shake their head, how
the users treat them as technical staff. It never hurts to ask what
you're getting into - and asking if you can ask those questions also
tells the prospective employer that you're serious about wanting the job,
but also about wanting the job to be a good fit for you.
>>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
>>
>> Don't presume and don't assume. You didn't answer my question, though
>> - did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a
>> response, or did you follow up?
>
> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
> happened. The end.
E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it got
caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
>>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then
>>> you could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
>>
>> Then don't go through the agency. Does your local paper carry
>> classified ads?
>
> Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and
> secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano
> tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right?
> But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing
> related to IT.
Maybe they need more than one. Who knows?
Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
not looking.
> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)
Then those are ones not to talk to if you want to stay in IT.
>> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly
>> regularly as well, and you know who the company is. Companies don't
>> just recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.
>
> Well, maybe.
Trust me, they do. I occasionally work with people who are hiring for
various positions, and have some friends/former co-workers who work as
recruiters. The successful ones look and post in multiple venues.
>>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7
>>> days to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being
>>> a nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
>>
>> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.
>
> False.
Oh, really? Worked for me, so I'll call your "false" and raise you a
"true".
> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
> you, which is almost as bad...
Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
shouting at you.
>> Hey, you gained
>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>> said earlier, that's progress.
>
> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
> sure.
Think of it as gained confidence.
>>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
>>
>> Not at all. They don't know you as well as you know you.
>
> I see...
Good. Now continue that thinking and say to yourself "if they don't
think I'm good enough, they're wrong. They just don't know me well
enough and are idiots for not taking the time to learn any better."
>> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn things.
>> Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then it's
>> their loss.
>
> Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the
> entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard
> to keep telling yourself that it's true.
>
> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
words you're reading on the screen right now.
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)
Murphy's law book has it as:
Negative expectations lead to negative results.
Positive expectations lead to negative results.
But that whole book is supposed to be funny, not summarize the nature of the
universe, even when you say "that's soooo true" at most of what it says :)
> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/
Look for a better place to do your searches then, that search engine sounds
buggy.
> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.
While employees in other companies enjoy life and read (but don't post to)
the Daily WTF.
http://niniane.org/gds.html
> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)
Like Jim said, maybe IT doesn't "do agencies" anymore, they're all in
linkedin and friends?
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>> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
>> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
>> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
>> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
>> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
>
> Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and
> read. If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll
> come over and talk to you about it. Perhaps not. But if you're not out
> there, they don't have the opportunity at all.
Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach. ;-)
[Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>>> How many times did you contact them?
>> Only once. They're not deaf.
>
> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
> more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
> to think your serious about wanting the job.
...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
PhD? (And I'm not.)
> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere
> else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate,
> maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him
> instead because he's made our job easier."
Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself
through all that again for no benefit.
> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
wonder why that might be...)
> You didn't answer my question. Do you want the change? And if so, how
> badly do you want it? What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that
> it happens?
>
> I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the
> qualifications. But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately
> are in control of what happens. It may not feel like it at times - as
> I've said, I know that all too well. Getting asked to resign from a job
> left me feeling completely out of control. I wallowed in self pity for a
> few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about
> it. And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts
> (small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.
Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there. I can
*totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
>> up.
>
> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
> didn't know they had.
Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed
during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing anybody.
>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
>
> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
> taking a sysadmin job.
System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)
No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>
> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
avoid people...)
> They take advantage of
> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
> Don't let them get away with it.
I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which,
arguably, it does).
This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in
the first place.
>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
>> do, and they know when you've done it.
>
> That's not a guarantee.
True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.
>>> You are
>>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
>> I'm not sure I follow...
>
> Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.
>
> If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at
> $1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.
>
> You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.
>
> So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer
> $1000, and they agree.
>
> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
> offer of $2000.
>
> Does that make sense?
Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available
right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's
*exactly* what it means. I'm confused...
>>> When did you last actively look?
>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
>> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>
> So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
> with them? Follow-up is important.
The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it go.
But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's
just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce
results.
>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>
> By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
> they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
> people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but also
> a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.
So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
executives on that ad on TV.)
>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>> happened. The end.
>
> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it got
> caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the
second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.
> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
> not looking.
As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.
>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>> you, which is almost as bad...
>
> Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
> shouting at you.
Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month.
It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm
still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why
the call in the first place, obviously.]
>>> Hey, you gained
>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>> sure.
>
> Think of it as gained confidence.
It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
>
> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
> have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
>
> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
> words you're reading on the screen right now.
Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
>> some sort of management position. :-/
>
> Look for a better place to do your searches then, that search engine sounds
> buggy.
Search engines can only return jobs that actually exist.
> Like Jim said, maybe IT doesn't "do agencies" anymore, they're all in
> linkedin and friends?
Perhaps. I don't know.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
>
>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
> avoid people...)
Look for a job where you mostly deal with technical people then. In my line
of work the customers I deal with on a daily basis are doing pretty much the
same job as me, same qualifications, same age range, same tools etc, just on
a different product for a different company. I seem to get on fine with all
of them, we all understand what is possible and what isn't, hardly ever is
there any disagreement, and even when there is it is very professional and
we still end up having a good chat over a beer and dinner later - usually
the cheapest way to get some extra information from the customers.
I remember one meeting where we were given mass production approval for our
first project with this customer after almost two years of Engineering work
together - they had brought champagne and cake in for everyone :-)
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>>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue
>>>> what
>>>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they
>>>> want it
>>>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>>>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>>>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>>
>>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>>
>> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
>> avoid people...)
>
> Look for a job where you mostly deal with technical people then.
I plan to.
> In my
> line of work the customers I deal with on a daily basis are doing pretty
> much the same job as me, same qualifications, same age range, same tools
> etc, just on a different product for a different company. I seem to get
> on fine with all of them, we all understand what is possible and what
> isn't, hardly ever is there any disagreement, and even when there is it
> is very professional and we still end up having a good chat over a beer
> and dinner later - usually the cheapest way to get some extra
> information from the customers.
Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
> I remember one meeting where we were given mass production approval for
> our first project with this customer after almost two years of
> Engineering work together - they had brought champagne and cake in for
> everyone :-)
The cake is a lie.
...sorry, couldn't resist! :-D
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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> Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
It has its disadvantages too, because everyone you work with is doing pretty
similar jobs, you cannot get away with doing things wrong or trying to fob
off people about how long things will take. eg if you try to tell the
customer it will take 6 weeks to make samples, they will know full well
exactly how long it will take to make samples and will pressure you to make
them quicker. Or if you say it will take 1 week to update some drawing,
they will ask why, because it will only take them 1 day.
This is in contrast to your current job I suspect, where most of the people
you work with don't know exactly what you do and how long it takes you.
WARNING if you get a new job you may not have time to post here :-(
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scott wrote:
>> Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
>
> It has its disadvantages too, because everyone you work with is doing
> pretty similar jobs, you cannot get away with doing things wrong or
> trying to fob off people about how long things will take.
Or mumble something about "the new 8.1 hyperdrive" and expect them to
just go "oh, OK". ;-)
> This is in contrast to your current job I suspect, where most of the
> people you work with don't know exactly what you do and how long it
> takes you.
Generally they just assume everything will take 20 seconds. (And get
upset if it doesn't.)
> WARNING if you get a new job you may not have time to post here :-(
Oh noes. :-P
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Mon, 04 May 2009 13:14:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
> ;-)
>
> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
Hey, it's a start. :-)
>>>> How many times did you contact them?
>>> Only once. They're not deaf.
>>
>> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
>> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
>> more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
>> to think your serious about wanting the job.
>
> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
> PhD? (And I'm not.)
Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
>> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
>> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job
>> somewhere else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other
>> candidate, maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go
>> with him instead because he's made our job easier."
>
> Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself
> through all that again for no benefit.
Potential benefit: They write back to you and say "sorry, we meant to
write back to you and we got busy" or "did you not see our earlier
reply? We assumed after not hearing back from you that you weren't
interested." Yeah, they might've replied and screwed up their reply and
it went to a bitbucket somewhere instead of getting to you.
First rule: Don't assume they intentionally ignored you. Assume they
made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>
> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
> wonder why that might be...)
Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
alone to me. So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it
on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity. Or something like
that.
> Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there.
That you can find. What you can find is not a representative sample of
what's available if you're not looking in the right places.
> I can
> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
Assumptions. You can control what you assume. So don't assume they're
intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
heard anything back.
>>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back
>>> it up.
>>
>> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
>> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
>> didn't know they had.
>
> Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed
> during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing
> anybody.
Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
experience. I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
>>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning
>>>> with the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work
>>>> in?
>>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to
>>> do.
>>
>> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
>> taking a sysadmin job.
>
> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
You want to get into programming? You're wrong, it's totally related.
You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes? They may not be OS-
sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers
(remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do
software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to
software engineering. It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount
the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as
being "unrelated". It's not.
>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>> :-)
>
> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer changes
as positions are filled and opened.
>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
Well, let's see. I work in a customer-facing position. I talk to
customers every single day. I deal with complaints (in fact, I'm the one
my team sends the problem customers *to* because I get results). I have
good years.
So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of
having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
My secret? I've been a customer (indeed we all have). So I put myself
in the customer's shoes and ask myself what it is that I would want in
that situation (I consider myself a pretty reasonable person). Then I
see if it's something I could do. If it is, then I offer it, and usually
that makes the customer happy.
And if I make that offer and they're not happy with it, I know that *I*,
as a reasonable human being, would be happy with it, so then it's not my
problem, it's theirs. And I don't let the bad attitude of someone who is
being unreasonable ruin my day. (And yes, that takes practice).
>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue
>>> what they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they
>>> want it 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not
>>> good enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I
>>> *own* you and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
> avoid people...)
Your implication is that all people are crappy. They're not. You just
have had to deal with people who recognise that you are someone they can
take advantage of and treat badly because you'll just stand there and
take it.
That's why it's important to stand up for yourself, but we'll get to that
in a minute.
>> They take advantage of
>> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
>> Don't let them get away with it.
>
> I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which,
> arguably, it does).
You can, though. You just haven't practiced it, and it does take
practice.
You want people to respect you, yes?
One way to get people to respect you is to stand up for yourself when
people are berating you for doing your job.
About 15 years ago or so, I was a part of a team who did online support
on CompuServe. As an incentive to continue helping, we got to go on
trips paid for by the sponsoring company.
One year, the trip was a cruise to the Bahamas. I think that was my
first trip.
A group of three of the guys in the group were the college-type
fraternity boys who stayed out and partied all night. They liked picking
on me, because I was naive and they thought my reactions were funny.
One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun. I
was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting
and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said
something to me. To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.
But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so. Caught them
*completely* by surprise.
You know what? That's the last time they bothered me. They decided I
was worthy of respect. I still talk to one of them regularly; the other
two dropped out of the program and out of my life.
I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) -
the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in
on me.
> This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in
> the first place.
Nobody seeks out situations like that. But they do happen and it's best
to learn how to deal with them so when they do happen, you can walk away
from it with your head held high. Yeah, it's a bit cliche, but it is
true.
>>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you
>>> to do, and they know when you've done it.
>>
>> That's not a guarantee.
>
> True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.
Depends on the people, really. All people have the ability to be total
shits to others. Some people who don't have technical skills end up in
those jobs as well (it's rare, but it happens), so it's best to prepare
for it.
>> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
>> offer of $2000.
>>
>> Does that make sense?
>
> Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available
> right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's
> *exactly* what it means. I'm confused...
But we've been over this, there are jobs available, you're just not
finding them. That's different than "there are no jobs available".
>>>> When did you last actively look?
>>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last
>>> time I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>>
>> So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
>> with them? Follow-up is important.
>
> The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it
> go.
>
> But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's
> just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce
> results.
Look at it this way: It may produce results, and if it produces a
positive result, then you can start planning to move on from where you
are. That's a positive thing, yes?
>>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>>
>> By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
>> they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
>> people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but
>> also a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit
>> for you.
>
> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
> executives on that ad on TV.)
From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and
that means lower stress. If the company has a good business plan or has
been around for a while, why not? You spend at least 8 hours a day in
the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too
seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
Here again, if you look for a job and expect to find something that's
just the way the place is that you're in now, then there's a good chance
you will be unhappy at the new job as well - you need a change in
environment.
>>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>>> happened. The end.
>>
>> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it
>> got caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
>> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
>> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
>> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
>
> And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the
> second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.
It's never too late to follow up. Well, maybe 6 months to a year might
be. It may have been filtered for many different reasons - if you don't
try again, you'll never know, right? If you do try again, then there's a
chance you'll find out, and there's a chance you'll get a "whoops, we
thought you weren't interested because you didn't reply to our inquiry
which apparently got lost on the way to you".
There are lots of legitimate reasons why a positive reply might not have
gotten back to you or why someone on their end dropped the ball and
didn't get back to you when they meant to.
>> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
>> not looking.
>
> As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.
Right, and that is different from "there are no jobs". Just keep
reminding yourself of that.
>>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>>> you, which is almost as bad...
>>
>> Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
>> shouting at you.
>
> Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month.
If someone treats you badly, their opinion isn't important. We all have
to remind ourselves of that from time to time - even in recent history,
if I started counting the number of sleepless nights I've had because
some shit said something mean to me, I'd lose count.
> It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm
> still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why
> the call in the first place, obviously.]
And when you do, start off with "now are we going to be able to discuss
this like rational, reasonable adults, or are you going to fly off the
handle again?" And if they do, hang up on them again and report the
problem to their boss, and yours. And to HR.
There's no excuse in a professional environment to treat people poorly,
and in most locales there are laws about exactly that. You do not have
to just *take* abuse. As I recall, employment law in the UK tends to
favour the employees, so use that to your advantage. Make a stink about
it when someone treats you badly - but do so without treating them badly
in return. Remain professional and factual.
>>>> Hey, you gained
>>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>>> sure.
>>
>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>
> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-) The usual
way that is said is "bravery and stupidity". But ultimately, so what?
Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
>>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
>>
>> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
>> have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
>>
>> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
>> words you're reading on the screen right now.
>
> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
Jim
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>> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
>> ;-)
>>
>> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>
> Hey, it's a start. :-)
Why don't I just paint a sign on my head saying "hey, I'm a subhuman,
it's OK to come over here and beat me to a pulp"? :-P
>> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
>> PhD? (And I'm not.)
>
> Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
It's a guess. I know MSRC has this requirement, I don't know about the
place I applied. (The ad didn't mention it.)
> First rule: Don't assume they intentionally ignored you. Assume they
> made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
Well, I didn't know what to say with the *first* email, so what do I say
with the second? "Hey, I know I'm so awesom that you must have just
forgetten to reply to me"?
>>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
>> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
>> wonder why that might be...)
>
> Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
> alone to me. So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it
> on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity. Or something like
> that.
More like she wants to keep her slave handy. :-P
>> I can
>> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
>> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>
> Assumptions. You can control what you assume. So don't assume they're
> intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
> heard anything back.
When somebody writes back and says "we don't want you", I take that as
being a rejection, yes.
> Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
> experience. I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
> college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
> Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
> thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
You're probably right about that. Unfortunately, I'm not real sure how
to do that. (Presumably neither is anybody else - which is why the few
who do get noticed.)
>>> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
>>> taking a sysadmin job.
>> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
>
> You want to get into programming? You're wrong, it's totally related.
> You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes? They may not be OS-
> sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers
> (remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do
> software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to
> software engineering. It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount
> the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as
> being "unrelated". It's not.
I invent tasks that can be solved by programming, yes. I don't *need* to
code anything. It's just a way of doing something fun while pretending
to look busy.
>>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>> :-)
>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>
> That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer changes
> as positions are filled and opened.
Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
significantly year upon year.
>>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
> So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of
> having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
Interesting. I wouldn't have believed it possible.
OTOH, maybe you're just a different sort of person to me? For me,
talking to strangers is almost unberably stressful - even if it's their
job to *not* upset me! o_O
> One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun. I
> was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting
> and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said
> something to me. To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.
>
> But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so. Caught them
> *completely* by surprise.
>
> You know what? That's the last time they bothered me. They decided I
> was worthy of respect. I still talk to one of them regularly; the other
> two dropped out of the program and out of my life.
>
> I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
> because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) -
> the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in
> on me.
Unfortunately, if I had done that, the three of them would have grabbed
me and beaten me senseless.
Sure, they'd probably be punished for it. But that's not going to help
me when I wake up in hospital, is it? (Assuming I wake up...)
>> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
>> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
>> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
>> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
>> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
>> executives on that ad on TV.)
>
> From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and
> that means lower stress. If the company has a good business plan or has
> been around for a while, why not? You spend at least 8 hours a day in
> the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too
> seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
There's "relaxed" and there's "we're a bunch of juvanile twats". Now I
could be wrong about this, but I'm saying when I was there the vibe
didn't feel very good, that's all.
>>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>
> Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-) The usual
> way that is said is "bravery and stupidity". But ultimately, so what?
> Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
> never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
Heh. Even Marcus, the womanizing wonder said he'd never do that.
...so yeah, more stupid than brave. :-/
>> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
>
> I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
An alternative hypothesis might be that the few other people who like me
are just kinda quiet about it.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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