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On Mon, 04 May 2009 13:14:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
> ;-)
>
> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
Hey, it's a start. :-)
>>>> How many times did you contact them?
>>> Only once. They're not deaf.
>>
>> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
>> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
>> more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
>> to think your serious about wanting the job.
>
> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
> PhD? (And I'm not.)
Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
>> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
>> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job
>> somewhere else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other
>> candidate, maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go
>> with him instead because he's made our job easier."
>
> Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself
> through all that again for no benefit.
Potential benefit: They write back to you and say "sorry, we meant to
write back to you and we got busy" or "did you not see our earlier
reply? We assumed after not hearing back from you that you weren't
interested." Yeah, they might've replied and screwed up their reply and
it went to a bitbucket somewhere instead of getting to you.
First rule: Don't assume they intentionally ignored you. Assume they
made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>
> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
> wonder why that might be...)
Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
alone to me. So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it
on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity. Or something like
that.
> Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there.
That you can find. What you can find is not a representative sample of
what's available if you're not looking in the right places.
> I can
> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
Assumptions. You can control what you assume. So don't assume they're
intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
heard anything back.
>>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back
>>> it up.
>>
>> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
>> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
>> didn't know they had.
>
> Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed
> during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing
> anybody.
Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
experience. I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
>>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning
>>>> with the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work
>>>> in?
>>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to
>>> do.
>>
>> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
>> taking a sysadmin job.
>
> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
You want to get into programming? You're wrong, it's totally related.
You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes? They may not be OS-
sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers
(remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do
software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to
software engineering. It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount
the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as
being "unrelated". It's not.
>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>> :-)
>
> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer changes
as positions are filled and opened.
>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
Well, let's see. I work in a customer-facing position. I talk to
customers every single day. I deal with complaints (in fact, I'm the one
my team sends the problem customers *to* because I get results). I have
good years.
So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of
having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
My secret? I've been a customer (indeed we all have). So I put myself
in the customer's shoes and ask myself what it is that I would want in
that situation (I consider myself a pretty reasonable person). Then I
see if it's something I could do. If it is, then I offer it, and usually
that makes the customer happy.
And if I make that offer and they're not happy with it, I know that *I*,
as a reasonable human being, would be happy with it, so then it's not my
problem, it's theirs. And I don't let the bad attitude of someone who is
being unreasonable ruin my day. (And yes, that takes practice).
>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue
>>> what they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they
>>> want it 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not
>>> good enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I
>>> *own* you and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
> avoid people...)
Your implication is that all people are crappy. They're not. You just
have had to deal with people who recognise that you are someone they can
take advantage of and treat badly because you'll just stand there and
take it.
That's why it's important to stand up for yourself, but we'll get to that
in a minute.
>> They take advantage of
>> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
>> Don't let them get away with it.
>
> I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which,
> arguably, it does).
You can, though. You just haven't practiced it, and it does take
practice.
You want people to respect you, yes?
One way to get people to respect you is to stand up for yourself when
people are berating you for doing your job.
About 15 years ago or so, I was a part of a team who did online support
on CompuServe. As an incentive to continue helping, we got to go on
trips paid for by the sponsoring company.
One year, the trip was a cruise to the Bahamas. I think that was my
first trip.
A group of three of the guys in the group were the college-type
fraternity boys who stayed out and partied all night. They liked picking
on me, because I was naive and they thought my reactions were funny.
One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun. I
was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting
and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said
something to me. To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.
But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so. Caught them
*completely* by surprise.
You know what? That's the last time they bothered me. They decided I
was worthy of respect. I still talk to one of them regularly; the other
two dropped out of the program and out of my life.
I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) -
the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in
on me.
> This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in
> the first place.
Nobody seeks out situations like that. But they do happen and it's best
to learn how to deal with them so when they do happen, you can walk away
from it with your head held high. Yeah, it's a bit cliche, but it is
true.
>>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you
>>> to do, and they know when you've done it.
>>
>> That's not a guarantee.
>
> True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.
Depends on the people, really. All people have the ability to be total
shits to others. Some people who don't have technical skills end up in
those jobs as well (it's rare, but it happens), so it's best to prepare
for it.
>> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
>> offer of $2000.
>>
>> Does that make sense?
>
> Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available
> right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's
> *exactly* what it means. I'm confused...
But we've been over this, there are jobs available, you're just not
finding them. That's different than "there are no jobs available".
>>>> When did you last actively look?
>>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last
>>> time I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>>
>> So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
>> with them? Follow-up is important.
>
> The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it
> go.
>
> But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's
> just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce
> results.
Look at it this way: It may produce results, and if it produces a
positive result, then you can start planning to move on from where you
are. That's a positive thing, yes?
>>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>>
>> By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
>> they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
>> people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but
>> also a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit
>> for you.
>
> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
> executives on that ad on TV.)
From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and
that means lower stress. If the company has a good business plan or has
been around for a while, why not? You spend at least 8 hours a day in
the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too
seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
Here again, if you look for a job and expect to find something that's
just the way the place is that you're in now, then there's a good chance
you will be unhappy at the new job as well - you need a change in
environment.
>>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>>> happened. The end.
>>
>> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it
>> got caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
>> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
>> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
>> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
>
> And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the
> second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.
It's never too late to follow up. Well, maybe 6 months to a year might
be. It may have been filtered for many different reasons - if you don't
try again, you'll never know, right? If you do try again, then there's a
chance you'll find out, and there's a chance you'll get a "whoops, we
thought you weren't interested because you didn't reply to our inquiry
which apparently got lost on the way to you".
There are lots of legitimate reasons why a positive reply might not have
gotten back to you or why someone on their end dropped the ball and
didn't get back to you when they meant to.
>> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
>> not looking.
>
> As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.
Right, and that is different from "there are no jobs". Just keep
reminding yourself of that.
>>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>>> you, which is almost as bad...
>>
>> Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
>> shouting at you.
>
> Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month.
If someone treats you badly, their opinion isn't important. We all have
to remind ourselves of that from time to time - even in recent history,
if I started counting the number of sleepless nights I've had because
some shit said something mean to me, I'd lose count.
> It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm
> still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why
> the call in the first place, obviously.]
And when you do, start off with "now are we going to be able to discuss
this like rational, reasonable adults, or are you going to fly off the
handle again?" And if they do, hang up on them again and report the
problem to their boss, and yours. And to HR.
There's no excuse in a professional environment to treat people poorly,
and in most locales there are laws about exactly that. You do not have
to just *take* abuse. As I recall, employment law in the UK tends to
favour the employees, so use that to your advantage. Make a stink about
it when someone treats you badly - but do so without treating them badly
in return. Remain professional and factual.
>>>> Hey, you gained
>>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>>> sure.
>>
>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>
> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-) The usual
way that is said is "bravery and stupidity". But ultimately, so what?
Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
>>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
>>
>> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
>> have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
>>
>> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
>> words you're reading on the screen right now.
>
> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
Jim
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