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On 28-2-2009 11:16, Chambers wrote:
> On 2/28/2009 1:15 AM, andrel wrote:
>> If you do you are paying to disturb another couple of hundred innocent
>> people.
>
> Very few companies call random numbers straight out of the phone book -
> it would be extremely inefficient. As with all marketing strategies,
> the key is to locate those people most likely to need or want your
> product or service; as a result, telemarketers aren't interested in the
> phone book, but in specific calling lists (for instance, home owners
> with >20% equity in their homes are a great demographic for windows and
> siding).
That is totally irrelevant. I am not interested in windows, nor is
almost anyone else on that list. For me it is just another unwelcome
phone call. Sometimes it is even worse than simply unwelcome. So is it
for the others on the list. Yet if there is just one in that list that
buys, they are going to use part of the money to annoy me again.
>
> I'm actually a big fan of targeted advertising. I'd much rather view
> ads (and receive phone calls!) about products that interest me.
if that happens once a year, that would be ok. Just as that I might live
with one unsolicited penis enlargment ad by e-mail per year.
>> for who this unskilled labour is
>
> If you think it's unskilled, you've never tried it yourself :)
It is unskilled in the conventional meaning of not requiring more than
primary school. That not everyone can do it and that the best do have
more education is not so relevant. To keep in line with my main
argument: pickpocketing is also unskilled labour.
I will never try myself and would object to anyone in my close family
that would consider. It is an unethical job, at least the ones that
phone 'random' people during dinner and in the weekends 'because that is
when the people are at home'.
>> OTOH they get paid to annoy people
>
> Those are the ones that give the whole industry a bad name. Believe it
> or not, there are professionals out there who do NOT annoy (that's bad
> business, you know).
Funny, I have never had a phone call then from anyone that did not give
the industry a bad name.
>> It is an unethical job at best
>
> Companies do the same thing to other companies all the time. Unsolicited
> sales calls are a part of the business world, and quite necessary.
> Imagine if you started a new business, and you were expressly prohibited
> from telling people about it until they asked you. You'd go broke
> within a month, and never make a profit!
>
> Before any sale can be made, a relationship must be established between
> the buyer and the seller. This can be done through a variety of methods
> (print and media advertising, word of mouth, product placement, etc) and
> telemarketing is just one of the tools a successful company may employ.
>
>> and when the methods employed are illegal
>
> The problem is NOT telemarketing (which can be, and is quite often, used
> responsibly), but those who employ illegal (or even just annoying)
> practices.
For the common people the problem *is* telemarketing, as they never get
called by responsible telemaketers. So how would we know that these
exist also?
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On 28-2-2009 11:07, Chambers wrote:
> My wife works for a company, called Vector Marketing, that sells
> cutlery. They're responsible about their calling, honoring requests to
> not be called and such, and are always courteous on the phone (although
> <5% of their calls are cold calls).
>
> I also worked for a company that sold windows & siding, where >95% of
> the calls were cold calls, and we also were decent about things.
Somehow I already had the feeling that you might have personal
experience. ;)
Can you tell me how you were able to determine that a call did not
disturb *before* making the call? At what times did you call? The
problem as I see it is that it is very hard to know that you are not
calling someone who is in a hurry to get away, already annoyed because
of the other two telemarketers before you, who is not cooking, having a
good conversation with a spouse or friends and is not making love at
that moment. In all these situations someone can choose to not answer,
but you know many will and even so, as soon as the phone rings, you have
an interruption.
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On 2/28/2009 3:10 AM, andrel wrote:
> Somehow I already had the feeling that you might have personal
> experience. ;)
Gee, does it show? :)
> Can you tell me how you were able to determine that a call did not
> disturb *before* making the call?
Obviously you can't, and it's not about being prescient. Really, it's a
two-stage process:
1) Narrowing in on the people who are most likely to respond positively
to you,
2) Handling the actual phone calls well.
The first part has nothing to do with the individual making the call,
but is all about getting them the right phone numbers. It's the second
part that makes the difference.
Really, though, I can't think of a single job where you do NOT need to
know how to close a sale, and telemarketing is a great way to learn that
skill.
--
...Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com
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On 2/28/2009 2:50 AM, andrel wrote:
> That is totally irrelevant. I am not interested in windows, nor is
> almost anyone else on that list.
Statistically, that list is quite accurate. If it weren't, it wouldn't
be used.
> I will never try myself and would object to anyone in my close family
> that would consider. It is an unethical job,
Tell me, what do you think of those people standing on the side of the
road holding signs advertising sales?
> Funny, I have never had a phone call then from anyone that did not give
> the industry a bad name.
I'm willing to admit that my positive experiences could be exceptions,
rather than the norm. Maybe I've just had really good luck.
--
...Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com
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On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:15:31 +0100, andrel wrote:
> On the one hand there is the real life person for who this unskilled
> labour is possibly the only way to earn some money and they don't
> deserve the blame for what their boss is doing.
I have heard (don't know if it's true or not) that at least some
telemarketing is outsourced to prisoners in prison....
Jim
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On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:07:40 -0800, Chambers wrote:
> On 2/27/2009 9:08 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> There are many who do not remove from their list (a) after scrubbing,
>> or (b) at the caller's request. There are quite a few now who actively
>> ignore requests to call and aren't even up front about what they are
>> calling about.
>
> Such actions are illegal; I have no sympathy for those who actively
> break the law.
Which is most of them in my experience. Being on the DNC list and
receiving a dozen calls a week or so from various organisations may mean
that my incidence of legitimate calls is abnormally low (because there
are very few actual legitimate calls that are permitted by law to come
through in the first place).
>> The whole idea of telemarketing is just a waste IMHO. I don't buy
>> things on the phone, most people I know don't buy things on the phone,
>> especially from cold calls. I have a need, I research a product, and I
>> get the one that fits my need. I generally think advertising in and of
>> itself is largely a waste when it's targeted at me because I don't
>> respond to it and generally am not influenced by it.
>
> The thing is, telemarketing will go away when it stops being profitable.
> Enough people buy things from telemarketers to continue the practice.
Exactly.
>>> (Now, the ones who repeatedly call you, constantly interrupt you, and
>>> try to steamroll you into something, I hate - they give the rest of
>>> them a bad name, and deserve all the pranks that get played on them.)
>>
>> I haven't actually run across any who use the technique responsibly - I
>> think many people are in the same boat I am, which is why the reaction
>> tends to be as strong as it is.
>
> My wife works for a company, called Vector Marketing, that sells
> cutlery. They're responsible about their calling, honoring requests to
> not be called and such, and are always courteous on the phone (although
> <5% of their calls are cold calls).
>
> I also worked for a company that sold windows & siding, where >95% of
> the calls were cold calls, and we also were decent about things.
>
> Those are, of course, only two companies, but still it's encouraging to
> know that there are some like that.
A very small minority of organizations IME.
Jim
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On 28-2-2009 12:33, Chambers wrote:
> On 2/28/2009 2:50 AM, andrel wrote:
>> That is totally irrelevant. I am not interested in windows, nor is
>> almost anyone else on that list.
>
> Statistically, that list is quite accurate. If it weren't, it wouldn't
> be used.
It need only be accurate enough to be profitable.
>> I will never try myself and would object to anyone in my close family
>> that would consider. It is an unethical job,
>
> Tell me, what do you think of those people standing on the side of the
> road holding signs advertising sales?
1) We don't have those here. 2) No problem as long as they don't
interfere with me driving. Because it is the interference part that is
annoying everybody.
>
>> Funny, I have never had a phone call then from anyone that did not give
>> the industry a bad name.
>
> I'm willing to admit that my positive experiences could be exceptions,
> rather than the norm. Maybe I've just had really good luck.
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On 28-2-2009 12:30, Chambers wrote:
> On 2/28/2009 3:10 AM, andrel wrote:
>> Somehow I already had the feeling that you might have personal
>> experience. ;)
>
> Gee, does it show? :)
>
>> Can you tell me how you were able to determine that a call did not
>> disturb *before* making the call?
>
> Obviously you can't, and it's not about being prescient.
No it is about not unsolicited interfering in somebody else's life. ;)
Really, it's a
> two-stage process:
> 1) Narrowing in on the people who are most likely to respond positively
> to you,
> 2) Handling the actual phone calls well.
>
> The first part has nothing to do with the individual making the call,
> but is all about getting them the right phone numbers. It's the second
> part that makes the difference.
>
> Really, though, I can't think of a single job where you do NOT need to
> know how to close a sale, and telemarketing is a great way to learn that
> skill.
I think we have here a case of either a very narrow work experience or a
very wide definition of sale. I am doing research I have never done a
sale in my professional life. Unless you count writing a grant proposal
as a sale attempt. The nurses in our hospital aren't selling anything
either, nor is e.g. a police officer or a cab driver (in the Netherlands
you take the front most cab, no matter who is driving). Nobody in a
factory except some managers and the sale department ever have to close
a sale. I think you will find that the large majority of people have
jobs that don't require them to sell anything.
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andrel wrote:
> It's real life SPAM. You may not buy anything, nor anyone you know, but
> there are always some people that do. Either because they actually need
> or want something, or because they were caught off guard. The math is
> easy. If a telemarketeer costs 10 per hour, he/she can make 100 calls
> per hour and one in a thousand suckers buy, if the product earns more
> than 100 you are still making a profit.
But NOBODY who put himself in the DNC list would buy! So why do
telemarketers try to circumvent DNC?
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On 2/28/2009 1:24 PM, andrel wrote:
> On 28-2-2009 12:30, Chambers wrote:
>> Really, though, I can't think of a single job where you do NOT need to
>> know how to close a sale, and telemarketing is a great way to learn
>> that skill.
>
> I think we have here a case of either a very narrow work experience or a
> very wide definition of sale.
It's a loose definition of sale. Anytime you need to convince someone
else of something, you "sell" them the idea.
When writing grant proposals, you need to sell your project. When
applying for a job, you need to sell yourself. When working in IT, you
need to sell the various purchases that you need to make to keep things
running.
The problem most people have with sales, of course, is they think of the
fast talking con-men. What they do isn't really sales, it's chicanery.
The art of selling is NOT the art of fooling, tricking, misdirecting, or
any other unscrupulous method. It's the art of persuading others to
your way of thinking, and useful for just about everyone.
--
...Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com
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