Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Oh, and FSM forbid they "ever" patch anything that isn't the OS to 
>> something,
> 
> Huh?  You mean, like the way they don't patch Office, say?  Unless you 
> ask them to?
> 
Uh.. Sure, security patches, which kind of... falls under the "causes 
problems for a lot of people with companies.", clause.

>> unless the problem is so critical its crashing thousands of corporate 
>> networks, never mind "adding" anything useful to it,
> 
> Uh, sorry. They add lots of stuff over time to *my* machine. Maybe 
> you're looking at the wrong update site.
> 
This is.. Sorry, but, seriously, stuff like "drivers", they don't auto 
patch at all, even when it might make sense to, which.. kind of tends to 
effect OS and machine performance. So... Not so good there. Other 
patches.. There is only *one* update site, and the only thing ever 
"added" are new versions of the "malicious software removal drone", 
whose sole purpose seems to be to send my machine into frozen limbo for 
several minutes, while it hunts hundreds of gigs of files for 
"dangerous" stuff, which it never actually finds. Meanwhile, its like 
running update under 98. Go eat dinner, and maybe by then the damn 
machine will be usable again. My virus scanner's "all drives and files" 
scan runs faster that that thing does, and causes less processor lag.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Why in the hell would I ever want something that is "finished", in any 
>> such sense.
> 
> I dunno. My TV, Microwave, and automobile are all "finished".
> 
>> updates without rebooting, (thought XP and Vista wasn't supposed to 
>> need that BS so much any more?), 
> 
> They don't.
> 
Really? Why is it that I have my machine on 24/7 now on broadband, so I 
get "every" update as it comes out, yet I can count on one hand the 
number of updates in the last year that didn't including "something" 
that had, "You may need to reboot the machine after this install.", 
followed by a reminder that would pop up every 5 minutes, if I told it 
"not now", when it asked if I wanted to do it? Doesn't seem to have 
"improved" one bit for me...

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> This "Can be" changed, but doing so is a bit... obscure, and
> it **won't** move the folder contents that are already there. 

That isn't what we're talking about. You're talking about changing the 
setting that says basically what the environment variables get set to. We're 
talking about mounting a partition as a directory, just like the "mount" 
command in Linux.  Same path, different drive.

> Basically, its way more complicated than it needed to be, and doesn't do 
> some of the things you "might" presume makes some sort of sense, like 
> taking "existing" documents, belonging to that user, and moving them 
> too, not just the "mount point"...

I was pretty sure it moved the directory if you went thru the normal GUI to 
do that, but maybe not.

> its not a true 
> mount, which would also move not just the symbolic lookup, but the 
> "logical" location of the files,

You're not talking about the same thing we are. And they fixed this in Vista 
anyway.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> When I hear rational discussion that includes facts, instead of 
> assertions, or facts not contradicted by other evidence, then, I would 
> give it credence.

That's not my experience, but OK.

 > Their products don't suck, they are just **not as good
> as they could be, given the amount of fracking time and money they have 
> to fix them**,

They don't have to be. Commerical software companies don't try to maximize 
quality per dollar. They try to maximize profit per dollar. As long as 
quality doesn't hurt their sales more than the amount they'd spend on 
improving the quality, they don't need to improve it.

Or, in other words, "We're number one, why try harder?"

> instead of being asked in the first place,

The sort of stuff you were talking about changing above, it *does* ask you 
in the first place, if you get the version of the installer that you use for 
things installed dozens of times instead of once. I.e., if you're actually 
working like you administer enough computers that changing them one at a 
time is problematic, you use the installer that asks you that stuff up front.

>>> Main point is, must Linux allow you do do this when setting it up, 
>>
>> So does Windows.   Not by default, but certainly if you use the more 
>> advanced setting up options.
>>
> Sigh.. Ok, where then? Because I couldn't find any, and that was 
> googling on it, and even trying to find it on MS' online archives.

In the bulk install sorts of programs that places like Gateway and HP use to 
install the software on their machines.  You don't think a place that has 
8000 employees is going to fiddle with switches one at a time, do you?

> programs broke "thought" they where following spec,

I think most people whose programs broke reverse engineered the spec. If 
they actually followed the spec (like invoking the proper APIs to read the 
system configuration instead of pulling it out of hidden files in the bowels 
of the OS) it would work.

> since it meant that the "watcher" for telling what got used the 
> most had to run all the time, and not just to count how many times you 
> "application" ran, but how often you opened specific documents, used 
> specific folders, etc.

System already does that.

> Now, its possible MS *could have* added it since they introduced, in 
> like 98 or so?, the capacity of the OS to track "recently used" 
> applications. But, I have seen no evidence of anything saying that this 
> behavior was ever added.

Errrr... \windows\prefetch is there? You didn't notice?  You never looked at 
the add/remove programs window and noticed it told you how often you used 
the program?

"I never noticed it" isn't the same as "it isn't there."

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> Oh, and FSM forbid they "ever" patch anything that isn't the OS to 
>>> something,
>>
>> Huh?  You mean, like the way they don't patch Office, say?  Unless you 
>> ask them to?
>>
> Uh.. Sure, security patches, which kind of... falls under the "causes 
> problems for a lot of people with companies.", clause.

I'm still not following what you think they don't patch.

> This is.. Sorry, but, seriously, stuff like "drivers", they don't auto 
> patch at all,

They most certainly do. Of course, the author of the driver has to submit it 
to be patched, but what do you expect?  I've gotten numerous updates for 
NICs, audio cards, and other stuff like that over the years on XP.

> There is only *one* update site, 

And you'd rather have lots of update sites? I'm not sure why you think this 
is a bad thing.

> and the only thing ever 
> "added" are new versions of the "malicious software removal drone", 

Then I guess your stuff is pretty stable. I get all kinds of updates for 
both Windows and Office.

> whose sole purpose seems to be to send my machine into frozen limbo for 
> several minutes, while it hunts hundreds of gigs of files for 
> "dangerous" stuff, which it never actually finds. 

I try not to be hard at work while installing updates to the operating 
system, myself.   Sounds like you don't have enough memory to me, because 
that runs in about 90 seconds once a month on my machines.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> "You may need to reboot the machine after this install.", 

Note the word "may".   If you're using the file it needs to update while the 
update runs, you'll need to reboot.  Otherwise, the system stops the 
service, installs the patches, and starts up the service again, etc.

> followed by a reminder that would pop up every 5 minutes, if I told it 
> "not now", when it asked if I wanted to do it? Doesn't seem to have 
> "improved" one bit for me...

Well, for one thing, you're still running XP, right? The OS *after* XP is 
already approaching the end of the period when MS sells it.

And again, confirmation bias. I've noticed a tremendous improvement in how 
long I can go without rebooting things.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
> Well.. Windows XP and Vista basically mount a "directory" called "My
> Documents", which can be pretty much any place. In the "default" state
> its usually something like "C:\Documents and Settings\Patrick\My
> Documents". 

Yes - and it's ment for exactly what it says, your documents, which are
only a part of your profile.

> This "Can be" changed, but doing so is a bit... obscure, and

Yes, AFAIK for either one user at time or via AD. Or is there a
(official preferred) way to move all users's documents at once?

> it **won't** move the folder contents that are already there. Worse,
> just to make things sillier, when you "do" change it, unless you have
> "full" rights on the machine (or even if you do, if you are using some
> "other" application to copy things, not just the inbuilt stuff), you
> lose the rights to access the files, as soon as you move the location,
> so, you can't then fix it.

Might be, I've never tried. You still can take ownership as an
administrator and fix things around.

> Now, where this gets fun is if you have something that asked the OS
> where to "install" documents and settings, then stored that, but never
> double checks to see if its "still" the same place. I.e., its not a true
> mount, which would also move not just the symbolic lookup, but the
> "logical" location of the files, such that accessing "My Documents"
> would "still" give you the right thing, so.. unless it presents what
> "should be", based on what it "appears" to be doing, a redundant call to
> "what is Patrick's document folder", ever time it tries to access, it
> instead uses the "prior" location, which is no not only invalid, but
> unprivileged, which leads to all sorts of whining by the application
> that it can't open the files.

Stupid software, but if instead of assigning D: to your work-partition
you mount it to c:\documents and settings, it seems to be at original
place even for Windows, allthought it's on another partition than the
system. Even such software you described can't mess that up.

> Of course, one of the odder "glitches" this presented was a case where
> save games where somehow marked as "temp" in the mess of the file
> system, under this design, such that, "clearing temporary files", also
> somehow wiped all the save games... I still haven't worked out how that
> happened..

And you're still sure this happened because of relocated My documents?

-Aero

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Eero Ahonen wrote:
>> Of course, one of the odder "glitches" this presented was a case where
>> save games where somehow marked as "temp" in the mess of the file
>> system, under this design, such that, "clearing temporary files", also
>> somehow wiped all the save games... I still haven't worked out how that
>> happened..
> 
> And you're still sure this happened because of relocated My documents?
> 
> -Aero

No, but, it shouldn't have been possible. And, I think it was "before" 
moving it. Like I said, I really have no idea what happened, just that 
Windows was complaining about running out of room, asked if I would let 
it remove some stuff, and it did. Since then, I clean things up myself, 
so I know what gets taken out. lol

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Darren New wrote:
> Or, in other words, "We're number one, why try harder?"
> 
Yep. Which is why people get irritated.

>> instead of being asked in the first place,
> 
> The sort of stuff you were talking about changing above, it *does* ask 
> you in the first place, if you get the version of the installer that you 
> use for things installed dozens of times instead of once. I.e., if 
> you're actually working like you administer enough computers that 
> changing them one at a time is problematic, you use the installer that 
> asks you that stuff up front.
> 
Uh.. Where would this installer be? Oh, right... probably on the 
"corporate" multi-license version that most of us don't have access to... ;)

 > Errrr... \windows\prefetch is there? You didn't notice?  You never
 > looked at the add/remove programs window and noticed it told you how
 > often you used the program?
 >
 > "I never noticed it" isn't the same as "it isn't there."
 >

Still doesn't imply that the defragger is "aware" of that data and uses 
it. It didn't for a "long" time, much as Paint was "stuck" in 256 mode 
until XP, and not(e)pad was stuck with a 32k limit until the same. So, 
maybe they made them better in XP and Vista. Good for them, its about 
fracking time!! lol

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Darren New wrote:
>> There is only *one* update site, 
> 
> And you'd rather have lots of update sites? I'm not sure why you think 
> this is a bad thing.
> 
You where implying that I was looking at the "wrong" one. I was a bit 
confused what one you thought I would be looking at...

>> and the only thing ever "added" are new versions of the "malicious 
>> software removal drone", 
> 
> Then I guess your stuff is pretty stable. I get all kinds of updates for 
> both Windows and Office.
> 
Ah, well. I don't use Office, so... Not a surprise there isn't a lot of 
that coming down the pipe. lol

>> whose sole purpose seems to be to send my machine into frozen limbo 
>> for several minutes, while it hunts hundreds of gigs of files for 
>> "dangerous" stuff, which it never actually finds. 
> 
> I try not to be hard at work while installing updates to the operating 
> system, myself.   Sounds like you don't have enough memory to me, 
> because that runs in about 90 seconds once a month on my machines.
> 
Uh.. I have... 2GB, and I am usually not running anything but Firefox 
while this is going on, so unless Firefox is eating up more than half of 
the memory... I just don't get it. It can take several minutes on mine, 
though, it "did" run faster before I tacked on an external drive. Hmm. 
Come to think of it, its probably hunting in the gigs of "backups" on 
that drive that get patched every few days too, which would mean its 
searching "two" copies of all the same data (well, mostly, since 
OneTouch's backup is lame enough to only backup the stuff "it" wants, 
not what you want. Need to find something to replace that with, one of 
these days... They ever get Windows Backup to do compressed incremental 
backups, or it still assuming you have an external removable that is at 
least as big as the "entire" data space you are backing up, like they 
did before? I haven't bothered to check, since it was nearly useless 
back when all I had to backup to was CDs, and it wouldn't do CDs. lol)

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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