Oh, and. One of the fun arguments you guess you is that faith gives 
hope. Here is the take of a "ex-priest" turned atheist blogger one that 
subject:

http://thechapel.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/of-myths-and-postmen/

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover, 
> without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from 
> other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."

  Quite ironically, that's probably the easiest way of understanding it
in the wrong way in many parts.

  You just can't go and simply read such a book out of the blue, from a
*modern* background, without first understanding the culture and customs
of the time, without having the correct perspective. For example, there
are many sayings and similes which were normal and common at the time and
the place, but which can be completely misunderstood when read without
understanding that historical context, from a purely modern western point
of view, especially if the simile is taken literally.

  Unlike many want to think of it, the Bible is not a completely
self-contained text. In order to fully understand it you need to know
something else as well. You just can't approach it from the scratch, without
"someone 'helping' you to interpret it" and expect to understand it
correctly. Doing that will only lead to misinterpretations and wrong
conclusions.

  But of course radical atheists like that. They have a marvelously good
excuse: "But I *have* read the Bible, from cover to cover, with an open
attitude and without preconceptions, without anyone telling me how I should
or shouldn't interpret it. And I have came to the conclusion that it's
bollocks." Then they love to quote random passages, taken out of context
(both the textual context and the historical/cultural context) to show how
screwed the Bible is. Then they will ignore any attempt at an explanation
and dismiss it as a "rationalization".

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New wrote:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> voluntarily blind to spirituality 
> 
> I double-ice-cream-dare you to watch these without a sense of awe. 
> (Except for the brief excerpt of the Numa Numa guy in the middle, of 
> course.)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvNhw888XmM
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fOXt4MrOM
> 
> I pity those who need a God to provide their spirituality, sense of 
> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil.
> 
OK guys, I think I let myself carried away and went a little harsh on 
Patric, but I felt a little offended when he minimized some things that 
I find great and important, but now I see he was only expressing his 
POV, that is Point of View... STOP RAYTRACING THAT MUCH! :-).

Patrick, I apologize if I offended you. Let me tell you that you can't 
find God, God finds you IF you actually are looking to meet Him/Her/It. 
You write like you actually don't care about spirituality but you care 
enough to write a justification about its inexistence, so maybe you feel 
the spiritual vibe but not in a classical way but your own... I'm only 
guessing of course, but don't you feel there is something else than just 
  a bunch of molecules that gives emotions and memories to you, you 
actually think where are biological robots of Evolution? That we are 
what we are because Natural Evolution created life and that's it? Even 
that thinking is logical somehow I doesn't satisfies me, not even close.

I respect your POV and is simply logical to think that way but I think 
there is more, much more... When I had ega enough to go "religious" and 
my Mom told me about God that created the Universe and stuff I had 
already saw documentaries about the Universe and it just made perfect 
sense to me; I'm not trying to convince you about anything just giving 
you my POV.


andrel, the Bible was written as "poetry" in some points to better 
describe God deeds, so you are taking it the wrong way.


Darren, I value Astronomy, Science, Raytracing, Music from group Era and 
Enya and other stuff, by themselves and as a gift from God to us, you 
misinterpreted me my friend.

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Darren New wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvNhw888XmM
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fOXt4MrOM
> 
> I pity those who need a God to provide their spirituality, sense of 
> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil.

Forgot to say, beautiful videos, fascinating all of them, just cruelly 
short, specially the DNA one.

One more thing there are things that only God can provide and yes 
somehow it shapes your perception of "spirituality, sense of
beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil"... Makes them better... :-)

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> And, no, you are the one confusing wishful 
> thinking with the idea that just because you find "comfort" in an idea 
> it has to be "right". How often is that "ever" true in the real world?

More than you or any other Atheist would ever be willing to admit, I 
have a pragmatical logic too but there are things that when you analyze 
them has subtle spiritual features if you are willing to admit such a 
possibility, not for spirituality it self, nor for religion nor science 
but fir truth sake. I believe there is more than meets the eye and more 
than science in the Universe.

Is not something me or anyone can convince you, is something you have to 
search for yourself, search the truth about spirituality, make your 
spiritual homework and see what happens. And I'm not saying you become a 
Monk and go on foot to the Himalayas to pray, just do it in your 
everyday if you like.


Finally I'm sorry but I won't read what the Atheist ex-Priest wrote 
since I think Atheist are short sighted spiritually and they just 
speak/write from that POV, maybe later as a curiosity.

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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> but don't you feel there is something else than just 
>  a bunch of molecules that gives emotions and memories to you,

Yes.

> you actually think where are biological robots of Evolution? 

Yes, in the sense that I think you mean it.

> That we are what we are because Natural Evolution created life and that's it?

Yes.

Those things are not mutually contradictory. It's entirely possible to be 
"just a bunch of molecules" and for there to be something more that gives 
emotions and memories.

"Don't you think there's more than just transistors and silicon and wires in 
your computer that make it capable of processing Word documents? Surely a 
rusty metal plate that's just like my metal plate can't hold your thoughts 
and feelings while you're not thinking them."

> Darren, I value Astronomy, Science, Raytracing, Music from group Era and 
> Enya and other stuff, by themselves and as a gift from God to us, you 
> misinterpreted me my friend.

I didn't say "value". I said "inspire awe". :-) When using the same 
terminology and arguments as others whose goal is to destroy you, you might 
want to consider what the other person might associate with the phrases you 
use. I am not sure I misinterpreted, since I didn't take you to be 
particularly attacking me. I merely took you to be crass and hubric, not 
intentionally offensive or threatening. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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To get a pragmatic POV about religion from a true Priest I advice to see 
a scene of the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven (2005)' in which a Priest that 
was about to go into a certain-death battle addresses his last words to 
the main Character (Legolas in Lord of The Rings, can't remember his name).

Those words and "never take compassion away from your heart" have set my 
  spiritual path for life.

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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Forgot to say, beautiful videos, fascinating all of them, just cruelly 
> short, specially the DNA one.

There's actually a lovely long one about 15 or 20 minutes long that goes on 
about the system's response to infection. I couldn't find that, but I'll 
post it if I run across wherever I wrote it down.

Awe-inspiring that we actually know (for example) how fast DNA replicates 
and such.

> One more thing there are things that only God can provide and yes 
> somehow it shapes your perception of "spirituality, sense of
> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil"... Makes them better... :-)

Hmmm... Hard to understand what you mean without the punctuation, but I'm 
inclined to disagree.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>> "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover, 
>> without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from 
>> other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."
> 
>   Quite ironically, that's probably the easiest way of understanding it
> in the wrong way in many parts.
> 
>   You just can't go and simply read such a book out of the blue, from a
> *modern* background, without first understanding the culture and customs
> of the time, without having the correct perspective. For example, there
> are many sayings and similes which were normal and common at the time and
> the place, but which can be completely misunderstood when read without
> understanding that historical context, from a purely modern western point
> of view, especially if the simile is taken literally.
> 
>   Unlike many want to think of it, the Bible is not a completely
> self-contained text. In order to fully understand it you need to know
> something else as well. You just can't approach it from the scratch, without
> "someone 'helping' you to interpret it" and expect to understand it
> correctly. Doing that will only lead to misinterpretations and wrong
> conclusions.
> 
>   But of course radical atheists like that. They have a marvelously good
> excuse: "But I *have* read the Bible, from cover to cover, with an open
> attitude and without preconceptions, without anyone telling me how I should
> or shouldn't interpret it. And I have came to the conclusion that it's
> bollocks." Then they love to quote random passages, taken out of context
> (both the textual context and the historical/cultural context) to show how
> screwed the Bible is. Then they will ignore any attempt at an explanation
> and dismiss it as a "rationalization".
> 
QFT

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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> there are things that when you analyze 
> them has subtle spiritual features if you are willing to admit such a 
> possibility

I'm willing to admit such a possibility. I'd like to hear some of your 
suggestions, tho.

I'll note, however, that "spiritual features" does not mean "my personal 
invisible friend has caused it."

> I believe there is more than meets the eye and more 
> than science in the Universe.

Of course there is. That doesn't mean it's (a) your God, (b) anyone else's 
God, or (c) unnatural.

> Is not something me or anyone can convince you, is something you have to 
> search for yourself, search the truth about spirituality, make your 
> spiritual homework and see what happens.

And here, once again, is the "if you disagree, you didn't think about it 
hard enough, or you're stupid" approach to argument. Do you really think 
that neither Patrick nor I have searched for the truth about it?

Just look at what you're saying, and see if you don't recognise how 
obnoxious you're being.

"I wonder what you're afraid of that keeps you from agreeing with me?"

"You really should think about it pretty hard, and then you'll see I'm right."

> Finally I'm sorry but I won't read what the Atheist ex-Priest wrote 

"Because I know I'm already right, I won't listen to anyone like you, but 
I'll assume you never listened to anyone like me, because if you did, you'd 
obviously already agree."

> since I think Atheist are short sighted spiritually and they just 
> speak/write from that POV, maybe later as a curiosity.

"And besides, you already agree, you're just too stupid to notice it."

Obviously I'm exagerating this, but it really is essentially what you're 
saying by continuing to argue like this.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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