"jaime" <jai### [at] ignoranciaorg> wrote in message 
news:422f4a28$1@news.povray.org...
<snip>
>
>   Practically, the important point is that you don't have to bother
> making colors for pigments of known materials. I find it specially
> useful with colors wich are difficult to get right, like the green
> pigments of plants. It accomplishes the same goal as sampling the colors
> from a photo, but with the advantage that the colors are not "changed"
> by the lighting on the photo, the camera white balance, etc...
>
>   Mixing with non-sampled colors is not a problem, but you should
> adjust them to look similar to the sampled ones in brightness and
> saturation, so it's better to use one of both types only.
>

Ok, so there wasn't a lot that I wasn't understanding in this regard.  The 
RS samples can be good to reference against, and they can be used to simply 
avoid having to spend a lot of time figuring out a certain color.  That 
makes sense to me.

I wasn't sure if I was really doing something "wrong" by using RGB values. 
There are so many other things that we guess at (like diffuse, brilliance, 
specular, etc.), that the RS is only one small piece.

>> Lightsys is an amazing set of includes/macros which everyone should 
>> probably be using, but at this point, I don't understand it very well. 
>> Some day, it would be nice to have a good tutorial "Lightsys for Dummies" 
>> or something. Perhaps I'll begin writing it up, if I ever get to the 
>> point that I truly understand enough of it.
>
>   Yeah... I've that tutorial on the to-do list, who know for how many
> years... as I mentioned, the main problem is that I don not fully
> understand all the functionality (appart from lazzines, that is).

It might be something that we could get started on the wiki, also.  Just 
another thought...

>
>> As always, any insight would be appreciated.
>
>   Hope that helped as a start...
>

It does!  I'm having a lot of fun messing around with lemon walls 
(demo_indoor1) among other things, like varying the Daylight/Sun 
temperature.  I've also learned a few other tricks from that demo which are 
quite useful, like putting media inside the window.

Thanks!  :-)

-- 
Jeremy M. Praay
www.beantoad.com

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In article <422f4268$1@news.povray.org>,
 "Jeremy M. Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecom> wrote:

> What are the benefits of using the reflective spectral data (e.g. 
> RS_White_Paint_1) over normal pigments?  Is it simply that the RS values 
> will look better under a much wider range of lighting?  Is it ok to mix 
> normal rgb pigments (e.g. rgb <1,0.8, 0.6>) along with the RS values?

I'm not sure what Lightsys uses, but it sounds like it simply uses a 
greater number of samples for color. Real world color is a mess of 
wavelengths from a continuous spectrum. Not all light sources emit 
evenly through the entire visible spectrum, and most materials reflect 
very unevenly, with complicated variations of reflection as a function 
of wavelength. The same object can have very different appearances under 
two lights that both appear to be "white". The effect is especially 
important in highly monochromatic light, such as that from low-pressure 
sodium street lights. 3 channels simply aren't enough to simulate this 
kind of effect. The effects can be subtle or glaringly obvious, 
depending on the situation.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] gmailcom>
POV-Ray TAG: <chr### [at] tagpovrayorg>
http://tag.povray.org/

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"Christopher James Huff" <cja### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:cjameshuff-87CB6C.19220409032005@news.povray.org...
> In article <422f4268$1@news.povray.org>,
> "Jeremy M. Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecom> wrote:
>
>> What are the benefits of using the reflective spectral data (e.g.
>> RS_White_Paint_1) over normal pigments?  Is it simply that the RS values
>> will look better under a much wider range of lighting?  Is it ok to mix
>> normal rgb pigments (e.g. rgb <1,0.8, 0.6>) along with the RS values?
>
> I'm not sure what Lightsys uses, but it sounds like it simply uses a
> greater number of samples for color. Real world color is a mess of
> wavelengths from a continuous spectrum. Not all light sources emit
> evenly through the entire visible spectrum, and most materials reflect
> very unevenly, with complicated variations of reflection as a function
> of wavelength. The same object can have very different appearances under
> two lights that both appear to be "white". The effect is especially
> important in highly monochromatic light, such as that from low-pressure
> sodium street lights. 3 channels simply aren't enough to simulate this
> kind of effect. The effects can be subtle or glaringly obvious,
> depending on the situation.
>


Thanks.  That's along the lines of what I was thinking.  As a real-world 
example, where I work, I sit under some strange yellow flourescent lights. 
Some of the papers strewn around my desk look white, others look very yellow 
or grey.  If I pick up those same papers and take them into my boss's office 
(different type of flourescent lights), they all look white.

Like I said to Jaime, I would guess that the reflectance values in POV-Ray 
probably are less significant than some of the other things we guess at in 
the finish statement (or at least I guess at them), like specular, phong, 
reflection, diffuse, brilliance, etc.  I think it would be nice if POV-Ray 
had more materials predefined using more physically accurate data.  Lightsys 
is a great step in that direction.  Does anyone know where to get 
information on those finish values?

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

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Jeremy M. Praay wrote:
> Thanks.  That's along the lines of what I was thinking.  As a real-world 
> example, where I work, I sit under some strange yellow flourescent lights. 
> Some of the papers strewn around my desk look white, others look very yellow 
> or grey.  If I pick up those same papers and take them into my boss's office 
> (different type of flourescent lights), they all look white.

   That is metamerism, IIRC... and that's not possible without the 
raytracer handling wavelengths internally (that is, Lightsys can't 
simulate it).

> Like I said to Jaime, I would guess that the reflectance values in POV-Ray 
> probably are less significant than some of the other things we guess at in 
> the finish statement (or at least I guess at them), like specular, phong, 
> reflection, diffuse, brilliance, etc.  I think it would be nice if POV-Ray 
> had more materials predefined using more physically accurate data.  Lightsys 
> is a great step in that direction.  Does anyone know where to get 
> information on those finish values?

   The only pointer I got is reflection+diffuse=1. I really don't know 
where it comes from, but I've seen it mentioned several times by people 
which seems to know what they are talking about... and indeed seems 
logical and gives good results. For the rest, we still have to use the 
good and old "trial & error", I suppose.

--
Jaime

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"Jaime Vives Piqueres" <jai### [at] ignoranciaorg> wrote in message 
news:4232c60d$1@news.povray.org...
>   The only pointer I got is reflection+diffuse=1. I really don't know 
> where it comes from, but I've seen it mentioned several times by people 
> which seems to know what they are talking about... and indeed seems 
> logical and gives good results. For the rest, we still have to use the 
> good and old "trial & error", I suppose.
>


I don't think I've heard that before, or else if I did, I never paid 
attention.  I've never quite been sure what to use for diffuse, so I've 
generally just left it at the default.  I'm going to have to modify some of 
my scenes/objects and re-render them with that in mind.

Thanks!  :-)

-- 
Jeremy M. Praay
www.beantoad.com

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the set of macros can do a lot of things, but I really don't
understand all of them

I like what I've been able to do with lightsys so far, but that has only
been playing with the settings some and hacking .obj meshes into the demo
scenes. I'd like to at least understand what macros you do understand and
what they can do. :O)

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fls13 wrote:
> the set of macros can do a lot of things, but I really don't
> understand all of them

   You're not alone... and I'm not kidding. I was going only for a 
simple  automatic lighting system, but finally Ive implemented an entire 
"color management" system, which Lightsys uses to convert spectrums into 
rgb colors (which is only a little part of what the includes can do).

   I'm afraid that to use all the set of macros properly, you need to 
have first some good knowledge about professional/scientific color 
management (which I don't have). Anyhow, for regular scenes you can do 
as me: just use the lightsys macros with the predefined spectrums, and 
play a bit with the brightness and the white point to get the feel you want.

--
Jaime

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Anyhow, for regular scenes you can do
> as me: just use the lightsys macros with the predefined spectrums, and
> play a bit with the brightness and the white point to get the feel you want.

Ah, and how do you do that? :O) I'd be happy to write a tutorial on that
alone if I understood how. I set up a page with some figure meshes hacked
into the demos and the camera moved about.
http://www.geocities.com/fls13ec/PovTest-Lightsys4.html

For example, what do the .inc files actually include? I see in
lightsys_constants.inc file certain brands of light bulbs are assigned a
certain amount of lumens. Then there is a relationship with a spline that
is defined in either espd_cie_standard.inc or espd_lightsys.inc. At least I
think. How do you insert in a scene a GE 100 watt lightbulb in a particular
location, like a lamp? Or how about sunlight streaming through a window
into a room?

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fls13 wrote:
> Ah, and how do you do that? :O) 

   Ouch! ...I thought the demos will show that, but obviously I 
commented them poorly.

> alone if I understood how. I set up a page with some figure meshes hacked
> into the demos and the camera moved about.
> http://www.geocities.com/fls13ec/PovTest-Lightsys4.html

   These look very nice... you seem to have fit the scale very well.

> For example, what do the .inc files actually include? I see in
> lightsys_constants.inc file certain brands of light bulbs are assigned a
> certain amount of lumens. Then there is a relationship with a spline that
> is defined in either espd_cie_standard.inc or espd_lightsys.inc. At least I
> think. 

   The contents of the include files are explained on the readme files, 
and it's too long to explain here, but about the constants, there are 
basically 3 types: typical lumens intensity values, typical color 
temperatures on kelvin degrees, and usual light colors in rgb format 
converted from spectral data (the splines contain the spectral data for 
the light bulbs, which are converted to rgb colors with the help of the 
CIE macros). You need usually these 3 types of data as parameters for 
the Lightsys and CIE macros.

> How do you insert in a scene a GE 100 watt lightbulb in a particular
> location, like a lamp? 

   Use the Light() macro supplying the desired parameters:

   object{
    Light(
     EmissiveSpectrum(ES_GE_SW_Incandescent_100w), // direct conversion
     Lm_Incandescent_100w, // from lightsys_constants.inc
     0,0,0,0,0 // no area_light nor cosine falloff spotlight
    )
   }

   or if you prefer to use the light_source directly (to tweak other 
features), there are some "sub-macros" which can be used to have the 
same result:

   light_source{
     <0,0,0>
     Light_Color(
      EmissiveSpectrum(ES_GE_SW_Incandescent_100w),
      Lm_Incandescent_100w
     )
     Light_Fading()
   }

> Or how about sunlight streaming through a window
> into a room?

   Just replace the spectrum with a sunlight one. Or use the Daylight() 
macro for a calculation based on the kelvin temperature: see the 
demo_outdoor scene... I know the demos are not very well commented, but 
I think it should not be too hard to simply grasp the basic usage of the 
main macros to use them on your own scenes. Or so I hope... perhaps I 
should write some more examples, if I find someday my didactic vein.

--
Jaime

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Jaime,
     Thanks for the kind comments on my tests.  I thought you had forgotten
me. I am very anal about learning new applications and got frustrated quick
too with lightsys. But, I have forced myself to learn POV better. Found the
sunpos.inc file in the bowels of the program. Very neat! :O) Your comments
help me and after a little break from 3D, I am back on it. Would be happy
to help with some tutorials, once I get the hang of it. More questions may
follow.

Thanks,
Frank

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